[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[The_undercover_beret]

Guys, let's do some theory.

Haku's ground based burst punish game has always been non-exisent.

What's the best way to burst punish a ground burst?

From what I have just tested in training mode:

- If the burst is blocked on the ground or in the air: 5C/Land 5C.

- If the burst is parried on the ground: 214A, 41236C, 623A 5C.

- If the burst is IB'ed on the ground and while in the corner: 6C(level 2)

Regarding 623A > 5C and 6C(level 2), I only wrote them because they are possible in training mode. However, I believe they are too hard and situational to be remotely worth it. 6C(level 2) may not even be doable on reaction.

Edited September 23, 2015 by The_undercover_beret

[mAc Chaos]

You mean baiting the burst?

Yeah, punishing a burst.

@‌The_undercover_be-ret: You can easily 5C them if they burst in the air, but do you have time if they bursted on the ground? That's never been true unless it changed in CPEX. Usually the best you can get is a dinky little 2A 2A 3C punish or a throw.

Actually that's another thing. Burst punishing without a lot of stars if they're on the ground.

Edited September 23, 2015 by mAc Chaos

[BlackYakuzu94]

Its so hard to actually block bursts with him now, that situation almost never comes up for me lol.

 

I think some important things to note is how much recovery burst have and see what we can get out. This is also meter dependent keep that in mind.

[The_undercover_beret]

@‌The_undercover_be-ret: You can easily 5C them if they burst in the air, but do you have time if they bursted on the ground?

What I meant was, it's possible to punish a ground burst with a 5C, even if it's blocked in the air. Sorry if it was unclear.

According to the frame data, bursts are -24 since CP: (http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Defense_(BBCP), http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=BBCPE/Defense#Burst)

[mAc Chaos]

The most common situation is someone trying to burst right before you OD. At least there, you have a predictable spot that they'll burst that you know and can prepare for.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Most of the time I get bursted right as I Overdrive cancel, so I have no time to block the burst because overdrive recovery is so fucking long. Its annoying.

[Schneider-X]

Actually that's another thing. Burst punishing without a lot of stars if they're on the ground.

This is what you can generally do at midscreen on the ground.

1 star - 5C>gurren>2A>2A>3C

2 star - 5C>enma> hop, 5A>5B> juggle

3 star - stick with the 2 star combo, you don't really get much more damage for spending an extra star

4 star - 5C> gurren>zantetsu> 6A>6B> juggle

5 star - stick with the 4 star combo

6 star - 5C> gurren>zantetsu(1)> CT > juggle

7 star - 5C> gurren>zantetsu(1)> kishuu > 2C TK Hotaru > juggle

 

In the corner the main focus would be to go into Renka (1) >kishuu >lvl 2 6C into Hotaru corner combo or if stars are low use Enma into the hotaru corner combo.

[mAc Chaos]

NICE

When do you find yourself actually getting a successful bait though? Going 5C > OD just gets you bursted. Do you do 5C and rapid? Or maybe 5C straight into yukikaze...

[BlackYakuzu94]

NICE

When do you find yourself actually getting a successful bait though? Going 5C > OD just gets you bursted. Do you do 5C and rapid? Or maybe 5C straight into yukikaze...

Pretty much your only options, I asked Spark a couple pages back and he said the same thing. There doesn't seem to be a real Option Select of baiting bursts off a good punish

[Schneider-X]

NICE

When do you find yourself actually getting a successful bait though? Going 5C > OD just gets you bursted. Do you do 5C and rapid? Or maybe 5C straight into yukikaze...

I only find myself baiting bursts during these types of situations:

-You ODc on a CH.

https://youtu.be/OFrs5RIG7cs?t=51s

-You jc after Hotaru

-Or you do Shippu immediately and move outside the range of the burst. (highly spacing dependent)

(will have footage soon)

 

Edited September 24, 2015 by Schneider-X

[Spark]

5C counter hit into OD is burst safe.  You'll always be able to block and punish with another 5C.

Edit.  Oops didn't see the post above.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Spark

[mAc Chaos]

Wait what?

What about 6B CH > 5C > OD ?

Or anything like that. I always get blown away by the burst.

[The_undercover_beret]

3 star - stick with the 2 star combo, you don't really get much more damage for spending an extra star

A combo I like doing with 3 magatamas is:

623AA > Delay 214A > Hop > 6A > 6B > 5A > 5B > J.B > J.2A > 9jc > J.2A > J.C

With a 5C-starter it deals 3.2k damage, it has a decent corner carry and generates a bit more than 1 magatama.

[Elemenope]

Wait what?

What about 6B CH > 5C > OD ?

Or anything like that. I always get blown away by the burst.

I believe they mean if you OD on the move that counter-hit itself, due to the added hitstop the opponent has unless I'm misinterpretting what they're saying. Since your 5C isn't counter-hitting them when you OD cancel, you don't get to take advantage of the extra frames of their hitstop.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Hmm, if its 6B that counters them, you should have enough time to block the burst, but I shall test it.

[Schneider-X]

623AA > Delay 214A > Hop > 6A > 6B > 5A > 5B > J.B > J.2A > 9jc > J.2A > J.C

True, you can do a combo like that for 3 stars and get around a 500 dmg increase versus the 2 star combo.

However, if you had another star you can easily get to 4.5-5K depending on the starter which I find more worthwhile than a 3 star combo.  Just a player preference really.

 

[mAc Chaos]

Hmm, if its 6B that counters them, you should have enough time to block the burst, but I shall test it.

They probably won't even burst because nobody ODs on 6B.

[BlackYakuzu94]

No, but anyone can tell you that a CH 6B is going to hurt.


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[Schneider-X]

Two things I want to point out:

-6B isn't special cancellable and as a result you can't ODc from it.  Meaning you'll always get blown away by burst during the move's recovery unless you yomi 2D or something

-a smart player will burst during the startup of 5C after 6B CH

[Schneider-X]

-Or you do Shippu immediately and move outside the range of the burst. (highly spacing dependent)

(will have footage soon)

 

Well here's a video I made of this and a few other things I've figured out.  Hope you guys like it.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Schneider-X

[Moblin]

There were some ideas that I've never seen in another combo video before, awesome stuff Schneider.

 

Do we still have matchup threads?

[BlackYakuzu94]

Technically yes, they're just centralized; you can find them on the front page.

 

Which matchup?

[Schneider-X]

Thanks Moblin, I made it a point to show something interesting with every clip whether it be a anti-character stuff or just a Hakumen thing I figured out.

[raxokoron]

On 9/25/2015, 1:55:18, Spark said:

5C counter hit into OD is burst safe.  You'll always be able to block and punish with another 5C.

I did some research in training mode about burst and OD.

1) OD invul frames are not burst safe. You can test it by recording [ 6C(lvl3) delay OD ], then try to burst out slightly before OD starts. It`s not possible to block burst during 16fr OD startup.

2) Burst startup is 6fr, ODC is 4fr. I failed to find any info about invul frames on ODC, but it doesn`t mater because of 1. If your opponent bursts 3fr before you hit OD, you will get hit most of the times. You can test it by recording [ 5C ODC ], then try to burst out. If you hit enemy with 5C on max distance you may have enought time to block burst, maybe because burst hitbox expands first couple of frames.

[Karsticles]

What's the trick to hitting j.2C, 5C after 2C, 214B?  I can only get it 25% of the time.  Either I do j.2C too early, and it whiffs, or I do j.2C too late, and 5C doesn't connect in time.  Sometimes (against Jin) I end up knocking Jin down behind me instead of in front of me.

Day 4 of Hakumen, so advice is appreciated.