[CS1-CSE] Hazama QnA and Tidbits Thread

[MetalMaelstrom]

snip

Okay, first tip I'll give you is to never ever ever get in the habit of doing the following pressure string: 2A > 2B > 3C > 214D~A/236D. It is a shitty pressure string that you will never hit anybody with and you will get blown up for doing it. The reason I'm warning you of this is because every move connects even if the opponent barriers, which makes it seem really tempting to do, but avoid it at all costs.

Second, I probably need to update the combo thread with some simple, non-TK combos. I'm not sure if there are any there already or not, but you can read this post in the mean-time, as it addresses some of your combo woes.

And to be honest, Hazama is one of the only characters I can do combos with precisely because you have to press buttons rapidly. I think those kinds of combos are 100000000x easier than links imo.

Also, lol, you play Tsubaki? How can you say that you're comfortable with mid-range when your character doesn't even have normals?

[Kakimori]

Cause Tsubaki 5B! Dat range and active frames :3 That and stuff like Valk's 5C are generally great spacing tools for my personal play style. Plus Tsubaki can basically approach the opponent however she damn well pleases...lots of movement tools. I think I'm really going to enjoy the new 44_66 from stance with Hazama.

So I spent a lot of time tonight against some pretty good Tsubaki and Relius players online and feel like I definitely leveled up a bit. Guymam, I am slowly starting to get the grasp of escaping corner pressure with Hazama, and mostly so far it seems to involve a lot of legit blocks and 2A > LOLGTFO at the right moment. Hazama's 2A is disgustingly amazing. 2C too (seems a lot like Tsubaki 2C).

MetalMaelstrom, I'm starting to understand his pressure a bit better. I'm trying to mix up my pressure strings, not just in terms of what I use but also when I cancel into the 214D~A. I do use 5A > 5B > 3C > 214D~A a fair amount...it's not quite what you posted but I assume the base strategy is similar. What's so bad about it?

Others I use a lot are 5A > 5B > 2B > 214D~A and 2A > 2B > 6A. I try to work 2C and 5C in now and then. Maybe sometimes I just 66 > 2B > 2C > 214D~A.

Most of what I'm learning are the simple points of movement with him that have probably already sunken into all of your skins...instinctual things like when to double dash forward, when to dash forward then jump backward, when to dash back, when to wait patiently, when to use chains, when to air dash towards them, etc.

Guymam, I get what you're saying about it being impossible to use chains perfectly in every situation, but surely every Hazama player has a certain repertoire of tricks they use sometimes in specific situations? For example, I'm just starting out and I'm not sure these are necessarily great, but so far, aside from the usual pokes, I use a lot of:

4D~A (immediate cancel) to discourage jump-ins and get them thinking.

4D~C > j.6D~C_D from 3/4 screen as a sort of staggered offensive approach, avoids some projectiles, etc.

2D~D (immediate input) > j.5D~D as a GTFO button.

5D~B (immediate input) as a baiting method at close range.

I've read the beginner's guide but I assume everyone has their own go-to tools as well?

I honestly don't use his command grab and Zaneiga enough at all. Anyway, please be patient with me. I'm going to keep putting in work.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Kakimori

[Shazam]

The thing about Hazama's chains is that they are basically an endless source of zoning and movement possibilities. Everything is situational in this game so generally you want to try and come up with as many ways to maneuver around as possible to get to where you want to be. Just because something works in one way once or a few times doesn't mean it will always work like that. Also we don't want to give up our hard learned secrets fo' free :3 but from what you listed it sounds to me like you're on the right track. Although for escapes I prefer [2d~d > j8d~d] but in some matchups like Rachel or Valk you should probably take both ways into consideration.

Honestly the more you play, the more you mess around with chains, the better you get at them and it just becomes completely natural. Using the momentum to give you a nasty spacing advantage comes with time and experience. One thing that I really like as Hazama is how you can air throw someone no matter where they are if you use your chain pull and throw cancel at the right distance.

Command grab is great as mix-up but zaneiga not so much. Once you get them blocking high or hitting you out of ressenga that's when you start to throw out the occasional zaneiga. Command grab opens up a strict defense and it has grab invul so it beats throws. You can go into command throw whenever you hit them with ressenga crouching, you will see the (red?) exclamation mark when it hits overhead. Command grab and the d~B are not used nearly enough by most Hazama's if you ask me.

[INeedGlitch2Win]

MetalMaelstrom, I'm starting to understand his pressure a bit better. I'm trying to mix up my pressure strings, not just in terms of what I use but also when I cancel into the 214D~A. I do use 5A > 5B > 3C > 214D~A a fair amount...it's not quite what you posted but I assume the base strategy is similar. What's so bad about it?

Generally "Anything > 3C > 214D~A" is pretty much a big no no in pressure imo, Generally a lot of people used to fighting hazamas will get ready to poke you out of 214D~A if you always do it after 3C. Just get used to just doing randomly silly normals then random silly 214D~A/C somewhere inbetween them, You can just like... off the top of my head like just 2A > 5B > 5B > 214D~C, or... IAD j.2C > 214D~A/C > more stuff.

Just be creative !

[MetalMaelstrom]

@Kakimori, 6D is better for zoning if you're trying to keep them out of the air. 4D is kind of match-up specific, imo. Some of Arakune's movement come to mind. Also INeedGlitch2Win is right, 3C > 214D~A is easily beaten by mashing. 3C actually isn't the worst as a staggered low, as it leads to good damage on counter-hit (which is part of the reason why 3C is so attractive outside of its range). But try to avoid using it in pressure very often, because you will either get blown up or you'll just reset it to neutral, which isn't the worst thing in the world since lol chains, but it's good to be in their face whenever you can so they don't have as much movement freedom.

jump-cancel > j.4D is actually alright in pressure as a once-in-a-while gimmick. All of the follow-ups besides A are nice. j.4D~C can cross up or not depending on how far away you are and what character you're playing against. 6D~D > j.4D~D or j.6D~D/C are some approach options if you want to burn both chains and feel you can hit them with a mix-up (if they're really that scared and want to stay at full screen distance without doing anything). You can honestly set a lot up off of j.6D. I saw Lich this past weekend at NEC do j.6D~D (semi-immediate) into command grab. Shit was godlike.

As far as movement goes, I would only use chains to approach. Dashing and air-dashing is for when you're in their face, hence why they're both so short. IAD j.2C is too good. People not used to blocking it will get blown up by it, and it's a really fucking good starter.

[Putin]

After doing it numerous times, my j.2C crossups keep getting blocked, and they proceed to jump/backdash out of my pressure. If I now they're jumping I'll just IAD air throw, but I can't seem to find a reliable way to keep them locked down after j.2C.

Any ideas?

[_Sey]

Crossup by doing jump back iad j2c and then do dash 5a, depending on the spacing if they are just holding up they'll have to block 5A in the air.

[Kakimori]

As far as Jakou after Jayoku, you can generally only dash 3c [214d~a] or [236d] unless you have cornered them.

Is this an actual combo or a blue beat? I can get it to blue beat but I can't for the life of me get 66 > 3C to straight up combo after Jakou.

Command grab and the d~B are not used nearly enough by most Hazama's if you ask me.

I think use of the command grab is above my level right now, but I land CH 214D~B about 2 times every round. Is there anything good to follow it up with other than Jakou? EDIT: nvm, I see you can 66 > 6D~A > difficult looking stuff. Hmm.

Been trying to learn the Zaneiga link after Houtenjin, since combo potential and damage seems to be higher than Jakou, and there are times when you simply can't land Jakou after Houtenjin. I can get the Zaneiga about...3/10 times right now. Also working on Zaneiga > 6C > 66 > 5C > ??? (haven't gotten that far cause I'm not consistent yet...keep accidentally inputting a second 6C). Couple questions: why does the combo notation say dash > 6C to start off after the Zaneiga? I can only get my 6C to land if I mash it immediately after I get control of Hazama again (no dash), otherwise they land and tech before it hits. Is this Zaneiga lvl 1? 2? CH? Does it matter?

Edited December 8, 2012 by Kakimori

[INeedGlitch2Win]

Couple questions: why does the combo notation say dash > 6C to start off after the Zaneiga? I can only get my 6C to land if I mash it immediately after I get control of Hazama again (no dash), otherwise they land and tech before it hits. Is this Zaneiga lvl 1? 2? CH? Does it matter?

1: it's really space dependent really for dash > 6C after stance C tbh. If you picture the hitbox for Zaneiga.. if they are generally on the outer half of it.. you'll want to Dash > 6C to stay as close as possible. But becareful! doing Dash > 6C if they are too close will cause you to cross under, certain characters have that hitbox where you'll cross under them a lot. So it's something you'll learn overtime weather you need to dash or not. (example: if you do houtenjin at point blank, but don't dash > zaneiga, you can still hit them with zaneiga , but to continue you'll have to dash > 6C)

2: as for the Dash > 6C itself you're more or less just canceling your dash but keeping its momentum (You'll notice when you do it right he puts his hands in his pocket and slide forward, how silly!) . so when you dash 66 you continue holding 6 and press C then you can return to neutral.

3: only difference between Zaneiga lvl 1 and 2 is that level 2 they fly a smidge higher and damage as far as i know.

4: just keep up the practice! Between Houtenjin > 66 > 214D~C, and 214D~C 66 > 6C. It's not like doing A > B > C stuff, theres slight gaps before you recover an stuff in hazamas combros. so you just got to keep playing and get used to it! and you'll nail them everytime!

Hope this was remotely helpful lol.

[Guymam]

Hfjalskjfi alk www lqkrhfhaoqofhufuwhxudhr

Man. I don't even know.

[hipikachu]

@Kakimori, if you truly can't cope with Hazama's movements, I suggest you might as well drop him. Using a character that makes you uncomfortable will only make practicing that much harder, unless you're determined to style. Based on experience, a person's general "playstyle" will usually come into play despite what character they're using. For instance, most Lambda mains tend to turtle with Hazama. While this should work theoretically when one has enough mastery over the chains, Hazama's reward off a 6D hitconfirm is nothing like the reward off Lambda's 6D hitconfirm. Whereas Bang players love to use Hazama's j.4D a lot due to it's similarity in trajectory to Bang's nails, and similar hitconfirm reactions...etc.

I'm going off topic here. If you're still planning to keep that hat on, I'll try translating Hazamian to Tsubakian.

<1> Ok, in terms of neutral gameplay, excluding Ouroboros, have very similar in-your-face game. They have similar range on their normals, and their pressure is affected equally by barrier blocking, albeit Hazama isnt ridiculously unsafe on block. This part should be relatively easy.

<2> At midrange, Hazama's and Tsubaki's 3C both serve as some of the most rewarding, yet easily punished attacks in the game. They dont have that many options otherwise. If you're spamming 5B at this range, then you forgot to choose Ragna at the char select screen. Therefore, stay out or get in. You don't wanna be at this range.

<3> Now at fullscreen, assuming you're not being zoned, where you would be charging with Tsubaki, you'll be chucking chains, pseudo-214D charging and baiting stupid jump-ins, or just outright taunting with Haz.

Vague stuff aside, here come the specifics:

<1> You know IAD combos with Tsubaki? Yeah, the timing on Tsubaki's 2CC for the ideal height after a 214D launch is pretty much the same as Hazama's Zaneiga after a Jayoku launch, but with an extended period of waiting. You watch the opponent fall and gauge their momentum, then press the button. Expect the move to come out a few frames late, because both Tsubaki's 2CC and Hazama's 214D~C are not the fastest moves in the game.

<2> Have you ever tried Tsu's DP whiff combos? The ones that make you do j.236D>j.214C(w)>662B? Yeah. That timing is exactly the same as the buffered dash 3C after a high Jakou hitconfirm for Haz (623D>663C). The input itself is pretty much the same too.

<3> Unlike CT veteran characters, Tsu and Haz don't have convenient 6A anti-airs. They both have extremely similar 6A's, 6B's, and 2C's. 6A for both characters is only rewarding on CH without heat and are rather slow overheads meant for mindgames for the most part. They can both also be used as situational relaunchers, as they both ground air-borne opponents and can be followed up with 5C. 6B is plus on block for both characters, hits low, and is only mildly rewarding with meter. Even CH may prove to be a bit finnicky here. 2C is where they both shine for anti-air normals. Both can be followed up on normal hit, and have amazing reward of CH. Hazama does fall kinda short here, because while Tsubaki has a trusty anti-air that actually hits the guy, Hazama is stuck with "trading in his favor," a concept I will never understand. The only positive note when trading with Hazama's 2C is that you can catch a panty shot off of any female character you anti-air. Except Tsubaki

<4> Here comes my personal fav part. Blockstring resets. While Hazama is significantly better here because he virtually end any blockstring with + frames, they both have a CS1 tool no one else in this cast has, and is why I main both -- stance/charge canceling. Obviously, an autopilot cancel will get you punished on the spot, as they don't serve any frame advantage benefits. However, since a good majority of their normals can be stance/charge canceled, its very hard to find a hole to punish. Using this sparingly and unpredicatably will allow you to use a normal several times in pressure, as every stance/charge cancel will reset pressure if the opponent fails to react.

<5> Use Hazama's command grab sparingly, as you would Tsubaki's unblockable. Both are easily mashed out of, but few people have the balls to do so for some reason.

Edited December 12, 2012 by hipikachu

[Kakimori]

You might be right...do you mean to say that most Hazama mains grasped chain movement quickly, though? I don't want to main him, since I much more enjoy playing with Lambda and Tsubaki (who are actually capable of moving...backwards, you know? ><). But I want to understand enough to play him from time to time. Maybe I should just focus on my mains since it's not like I can claim to be *great* with them either...?

As for your <2> point, theoretically, Hazama's 3C should be safe since Jabaki is safe, right? And while Tsubaki likes to be in one's face, imo 5B is really a good attack at the right range. Not mashed...it's more for poking. Yeah, Tsubaki and Hazama 6A feel very similar to me.

[Shazam]

The thing about chain movement is that it's been slightly changed each game. Back when I was starting I felt myself getting better each month, as I stuck with him my movements and choices became much more crisp and fluid. It's just that now we can stop our momentum extremely early leading to an even more diverse drive button. Also, Hazama can move backwards, super jump backwards is one of his best options.

Just because you can make 3c safe doesn't mean you want to actually use it a lot. Now, comparing your post to the <2> point, I don't even see the correlation between the two. He was just trying to tell you how to combo after 623d. You only use 3c as a mindgame after conditioning them to block your ressenga's. It has -6 on block and regardless of whether or not you can catch them with a Jabaki or they just block it(more likely), you've still ended your pressure. It's just not a normal that you use in block strings very often.

[Kakimori]

Oh! I guess I was referring to the first <2> point...there were 2...if that makes sense.

Do you generally recommend canceling chain momentum with air throw whiff or with j.A? Does it matter?

[MetalMaelstrom]

Cancel it with another chain, imo. Or backdash if you want to bait an anti-air.

[hipikachu]

Yeah, I guess I did overdo the wall of words post -_-

@Kakimori

Personally, my favorite part about Hazama's chain movements is probably fullscreen momentum air-grabs. It's complete mindf*ck on the receiving end, looks professional, and is rewarding as all hell. There are many ways to perform this "technique" if I may call it so. But the easiest and simplest method usually involves firing a 3/4 extended 5D on the ground, then catapulting yourself with a D followup, or if you're midair, you fire a 6D and D followup immediately, not letting it extend at all. The result should be a speedy, fullscreen, and rather straight super IAD. This will almost guarantee a throw counter against anyone rising into the air. The grab hitbox is pretty lenient. It's not a clear-cut execution such as performing a combo, its something that gets more and more consistent as you get a feel for his movements. Conclusion: If you're going to grab in the air, might as well actually grab the opponent, whiffing an air grab multiple times leaves you both vulnerable and looking scrubby.

Now onto the actual question (canceling momentum):

<1> Pressing B will leave you with a flying kick of sorts. He kinda glides along with his foot sticking out, hitting anything in his way. This is both easy to grasp and decently safe (aside from anti-airs)

<2> j.2C is the most significant momentum "weight" you have. It's essentially the "heaviest" out of all your moves, and will begin "sinking" your momentum pretty quickly. If you actually intend to hit the opponent, you must input it as you're getting within range, never before. Doing so will land you on the ground a couple character spaces in front of them. Not saying you should only use it to hit people (landing early can screw up a good amount of anti-airs and score you a free CH 3C when spaced right), but that using this move will end the rest of your air momentum, leaving no room to input any other normals.

<3> In terms of canceling your momentum, I like to think of it as "A(lightest)->C(heaviest)." Except for j.214B, it's a momentum killer. It'll actually halt you in the air at the exact moment you input it, awkwardly ending your forward momentum on the spot. The "heavier" the move, the faster you'll hit the ground after inputting it. Remember, if the move hasn't completely come out by the time you've landed, the move will be canceled the moment you touch ground.

<4> The number of normals you input in the air will kinda "stack momentum" and affect your landing speed. If you mash 3 j.5As in the air, you'll hit the ground alot faster than if you used one j.5B. This is usually the preferred method of making an "emergency landing,(as mentioned in <2>)" and punishing whiffed anti-airs.

Sorry if I sounded harsh with the whole "drop Hazama" thing, it was just a piece of advice I thought I'd throw out in case you felt like there were awkward barriers that didn't feel right. I used to main Noel, and had all her combos down blindfolded, but could never get over the fact her 2A had both a quicker startup time and better range then her 2B That, and the lack of a "cancel" option for chain revolver is what got me into the CS1 pair ()

@MeatlMealstorm

I completely agree with both suggestions, although I do have to note I've personally have had more success with the first option (chain canceling). What would happen with backdashing is that I would fly over the dudes anti-air, whiff j.2C, backdash to get back into place, and land right back into the anti-air's last active frames

I made another wall of words. Oh my.

Edited December 19, 2012 by hipikachu
I'm sorry MetalMaelstrom. I had to.

[Kakimori]

Thank you very much for all this information. It really is a help to someone like me.

[hipikachu]

No prom we've all been there. Although any advice you're gonna get from here will probably be "Delay 5C :eng101:"

...either that or:

Are there any combos that allow you to OD after hit confirming, and then continue the combo? That would be what makes using it later in the round viable imo.

Yes.

Edited January 2, 2013 by hipikachu

[Midnight-Zephyr]

I'm rather new here even though I had this account for a while, but this isnt an introduction thread, so im gonna get to the point. I have a serious problem with pressure and hit-confirming with Hazama. I keep messing around with Hazama's tools in training mode, learned combos and basic pressure, but none of that matters if I cant land a hit on my opponent. Long story short: What are good moves to just throw out, what are some good blockstrings/crossups/mixups, what are other pages I should be looking at to learn the character? I strive to be a great Hazama, but I need the help.

[Guymam]

1) Don't get into this mindset of just "throwing out" normals. They should have a general purpose. If you're having trouble hitconfirming it's because you normals had no purpose so you weren't really paying attention. If you're not expecting it to hit or at least do something then how can you react when they do?

2) There is no set way to pressure. 5B, 6B, and ressenga are + on block, he has a great command grab, and his 5B, 5C, and 2C are jump cancellable on block. Basically, you need to think about how to effectively pressure with those tools. This character isn't so much "set pressure string" as he is using his fantastic normals in your favor. If you want braindead normals/pressure, I suggest Hakumen/Mu.

Basically, instead of asking us "what are great x-copy things I can do to win" you should ask how each tool works, what makes it work, and what situations it would be best suited for.

Also,

Hazama sucks

[Midnight-Zephyr]

I apologize for having that mindset. Its the side-effect of the way I've played fighting games. But that mindset will go away. I'm gonna actually 'think' when using these moves for pressure. But I'm not gonna go to Haku/Mu. I'm a Hazama main.

The first moves I wanna learn more about is his drives. What are the best situations for each drive, its general purpose, advanced purpose, and other intracacies for the drive itself?

[Ctrlaltwtf]

He really meant spam moves incessantly and let netplay take care of the rest.

It's the truth

[Guymam]

Check the chain zoning guide for a general breakdown

[Midnight-Zephyr]

Thanks. I'm gonna make the step up from being a netplay scrub, so any advice helps.

[Raxvar]

Dumb beginner question: what the heck is the timing on 236236C > 214D~C? I can't figure out how to land the zaneiga consistently, can't figure out the timing on when to press C.