[CS2] Valkenhayn Technical Discussion

[Sahgren]

Any use for 236Bx2 now outside of 236B RC for bonus proration though?

Doesn't seem like it. With the change to 3C, to my knowledge, the only way to combo into 236B now is off of 2C or in a corner combo. Seems like 236B is just for the bonus proration now.

[NickExtreme1]

Doesn't seem like it. With the change to 3C, to my knowledge, the only way to combo into 236B now is off of 2C or in a corner combo. Seems like 236B is just for the bonus proration now.

I'm fine with my extra damage with meter I can get right back in the same combo

[OrionXElite]

You can always go for the traditional use for it to get more damage off of things like his Command Grab. Given I think it only does like 1000 damage now, it'd be worth it.

[W]236D>[H]2C>6B>236B>RC>2C>6C>TK j.214B>2D>[W]236B>j.236B>7CD>[H]j.C>Land 2A>5B>2C>j.B>dj.B>j.C

Theoretically this should work the Bonus Proration works well enough in our favor to get the j.C>2A>5B part. Also given how you don't use a lot of Wolf Meter for the combo, you might even be able to get the Wolf ender Masashi likes to use. [H]2A>5B>2C>j.D>[W]j.B>falling j.A>Land 5B>j.AA>j.B>2C>j.B>Land D>Meaty 6B That would give you more meter that the basic air ender too but just at the expense of a bit more Wolf Meter.

[Nokita]

H.H has put together a combo damage/hitstun decay/proration calculator for Valk(and others) on his blog.

Its not completely accurate,but its quite close overall.(the calculator tends to be a couple of points off)

Might help for those that want to find out optimal stuff.

You basically piece your combo together via the buttons,hit start and then check out the results below.

*Note:

The proration value that is shown for your starter is p1*p2.

For the 2nd hit and onwards,the p2 value is shown.

Based on this,the full list of proration changes:

3C: p1 90->75

nachtjager: p2 89->80

weisse jagd: p2 50->60

eisen: p2 92->89

That's it for now.

Calculator:

http://ogarabu.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-27.html

Translation:

Other characters:

Litchi: http://ogarabu.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-26.html

Relius: http://ogarabu.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-24.html

Jin: http://ogarabu.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-22.html

Bang: http://ogarabu.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-20.html

Carl: http://ogarabu.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-19.html

Mu 12: http://ogarabu.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-17.html

[Sahgren]

Wow, good find, Nokita. Now we can put something behind theorizing combos.

Worthy of note: It doesn't seem to want to work of you hit Google Translate, you have to keep it in Japanese. Also, it doesn't seem to tell you if the combo dropped or not; it's currently saying that 2C > 6C combos.

[OrionXElite]

You'd have to use character knowledge and do a bit of math to figure out how legit the combos actually are. Know the parts that usually work like(i.e, 2C>6B grounded works while 2C>6C grounded doesn't) and then look at the hitstun scaling as the combo goes, apply the hitstun reduction from the Proration to the untechable time of the attack you just hit then compare if the reduced untech time is enough for the next move to hit. Its a really cool thingy honestly, I could have a lot of fun with this and it lets me apply ideas without having to do the tedious work :3

Edited November 2, 2011 by OrionXElite

[Leo7]

Nice work as always Nokita.

I doubt anyone knows, but I'm assuming Valk can't do falling wjB x 2 > land 5D > human 5b anymore?

[OrionXElite]

Doubt that works anymore given the lowered hitstun on [W]j.B but they gave us the j.C relaunch as a compromise :3

I kinda wish this combo maker thingy would calculate Heat Gain as thats way more frustrating to figure out than damage:v:

[Nokita]

I kinda wish this combo maker thingy would calculate Heat Gain as thats way more frustrating to figure out than damage:v:

I think it'll be updated accordingly in the near future.

Bang's one has it with heat gain already.

The supposed W JB change is most likely false.

Its not listed as a confirmed change on the wiki and no one is talking about it, like literally no one.

[Leo7]

Yea, that's why I wasn't sure. It didn't look like there were any problems with wjB in any videos.

Edit: So the new Alpha Station videos show Hina doing w5C > jB > jB land human 5B (which means the w7C variant works as well), so that confirms there isn't any change to wjB.

He also does w7C~D > jC > land 5B a lot in that vid, which does more damage than falling wjBs anyways (better proration).

Edited November 5, 2011 by Leo7

[OrionXElite]

So I'm gonna be going to Northwest Majors this weekend and there is going to be a playable version of Extend for people to mess around with. I plan to play this as much as possible and hopefully try and figure some new things out. My number 1 goal is to figure an optimized Damage/Heat Gain Fatal combo for Tager as I've been doing theory fighter about his new combos since day 1 :3

BUT I'm also really curious about what kind of things you could work into Valk combos in certain situations so I intend to play him a bunch too. So I have a question for the rest of the Valk Forums: Is there anything you guyd would like me to try out?? Combos, pressure and random crap like that?? I was gonna make a list of things to try so I can keep track of it all and I planned to add extra things that others wanted me to try too. So ask away if you have any thoughts :D

[Sahgren]

If you could, could you test what it's possible to follow up an AA [w]5B trade with? It seems like [h]j.B > j.214B is the go to follow up now, but I remember hearing somewhere about it being possible to follow up with Jager/Rozen when trading against attacks with low hitstun.

[Tong]

May be old news, but 632146D j.236236C works..

[Zeron_X25]

May be old news, but 632146D j.236236C works..

Uhhhh... you mean in CS2?

[NickExtreme1]

So I'm gonna be going to Northwest Majors this weekend and there is going to be a playable version of Extend for people to mess around with. I plan to play this as much as possible and hopefully try and figure some new things out. My number 1 goal is to figure an optimized Damage/Heat Gain Fatal combo for Tager as I've been doing theory fighter about his new combos since day 1 :3

BUT I'm also really curious about what kind of things you could work into Valk combos in certain situations so I intend to play him a bunch too. So I have a question for the rest of the Valk Forums: Is there anything you guyd would like me to try out?? Combos, pressure and random crap like that?? I was gonna make a list of things to try so I can keep track of it all and I planned to add extra things that others wanted me to try too. So ask away if you have any thoughts :D

I hope you had fun, I get my turn with Extend next week at NEC :yaay:

Anything anyone want me to try while I'm am there, feel free to let me know.

[Tong]

Guys, what moves and maneuvers should I train?

I want to move and attack from impossible angles like JP Valks >:

But I dont know what stuff has momentum or when to switch between modes.

[Sahgren]

Guys, what moves and maneuvers should I train?

I want to move and attack from impossible angles like JP Valks >:

But I dont know what stuff has momentum or when to switch between modes.

This thread here is still relevant.

The ones I feel are particularly important are [h]j.D > 66j.D to get an airdash that flings yourself across the screen while still allowing you to barrier block for most of the movement, and canceling a wolf c-dash into human form to allow yourself to block or attack with human normals.

Not listed there: For [w]4C/7C and wolf canceling with [h]4D/7D, practice stopping your movement with [w]j.C before they catapult you back into the opponent. It makes those movements a lot safer, since you'll manage to back off while in wolf without throwing yourself back into whatever attack they throw out in order to hit you while you're coming back in.

Unless you're canceling your wolf c-dash with j.C, basically everything retains your momentum. Knowing when to switch is just experience.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Sahgren
Fixed grammar and typos

[NickExtreme1]

236A version Konig Wolf covers good vertical distance too. I mix it in with [h]j.D > 66j.D and [w]NC dashes to confuse people. Dirty stuff.

[Sinfire Titan]

Ok, after much experimentation, I've finally found a combo to call my own with Valk. It's:

6C, 2C, 6B, No Command, 2C, 6C, jA, B, jB, 214B, 9D, (transformed, midair) A, (transformed, midair) A, (transformed, midair) A, (transformed, midair) 236B, (transformed, midair) 236B, (transformed, midair) 214A.

I've practiced with it and I know it works, as I've gotten up to the first 236B (but then my fingers are just having some trouble with timing it right; I'll get it with practice eventually). I have a variant that follows up the (transformed, midair) A's with C, D, B, C, 236236D, Rapid, 6C, 2C, 6B, No Command, 2C, 6C, jA, B, jB, C, but I'm not nearly good enough to pull it off yet (the C, D, B is a pain to time properly, which is why I haven't completed Challenge 9 or 10 as Valk yet).

I'm having trouble with the timing on 214B. If I'm correct, this combo should work in CS1 (v1.03) just fine (the timing on the second attack is tricky). Anyone able to help me here?

Edit: Neglected to mention that this only works when they are against a wall.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Sinfire Titan

[Sahgren]

As a quick note:

You can use [h] or h in order to symbolize that you're in human and [w] or w to symbolize that you're in wolf.

If you're in midair, put a "j" in front, and use 'dj" in order to show when you've used up your double jump.

Generally you want both hits of [h]6B to connect, so the standard notation for both hits is simply 6B. If you only want one attack to connect, notate it as 6B(1).

You can also assume that people will realize that the moment they see a D, you'll have changed forms and won't be changing to the other form until they see another D.

As such, you can shorten the combo notation to this to save on typing:

[h]6C > 2C > 6B > 2C > 6C > j.A > j.B > dj.B > dj.214B > 9D > j.AAA > j.236B > j.236B > j.214A

For the combo: What exactly is the problem with j.214B? Are they teching before the j.214B lands, or are you having problems connecting j.214B > 9D > j.AAA?

Combo Optimization: [h]6C, [h]6B and all of the [w]236 attacks have repeat proration, so using each of them more than once in a combo means that you're losing a significant amount of damage from each hit later in the combo whilst giving your opponent a chance to escape the combo sooner. I would suggest not doing the second 6C and changing the first j.236B to j.236a (or eliminating it from the combo altogether) in order to have the combo deal more damage and insure that they can't escape.

For the second combo of ... > j.236236C > RC > 6C > ..., you run into the same problem of already having used [h]6C and 6B in the combo, so they'll be able to tech relatively quickly without adding much damage. It's generally advised to just stop at the j.236236C, since RCing it would require a full 100 meter and rarely allows you to extend the combo much further.

Edit: Yes, the combo should be able to work in CS1 v1.03.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Sahgren
Fixed combo notation

[GenoWhirl]

Edit: Eh I got ninnja'd

[goldenxservbot]

As a quick note:

You can use [h] or h in order to symbolize that you're in human and [w] or w to symbolize that you're in wolf.

If you're in midair, put a "j" in front, and use 'dj" in order to show when you've used up your double jump.

Generally you want both hits of [h]6B to connect, so the standard notation for both hits is simply 6B. If you only want one attack to connect, notate it as 6B(1).

You can also assume that people will realize that the moment they see a D, you'll have changed forms and won't be changing to the other form until they see another D.

As such, you can shorten the combo notation to this to save on typing:

[h]6C > 2C > 6B > 2C > 6C > j.A > j.B > dj.B > dj.214B > 9D > j.AAA > j.236B > j.236B > j.214A

For the combo: What exactly is the problem with j.214B? Are they teching before the j.214B lands, or are you having problems connecting j.214B > 9D > j.AAA?

Combo Optimization: [h]6C, [h]6B and all of the [w]236 attacks have repeat proration, so using each of them more than once in a combo means that you're losing a significant amount of damage from each hit later in the combo whilst giving your opponent a chance to escape the combo sooner. I would suggest not doing the second 6C and changing the first j.236B to j.236a (or eliminating it from the combo altogether) in order to have the combo deal more damage and insure that they can't escape.

For the second combo of ... > j.236236C > RC > 6C > ..., you run into the same problem of already having used [h]6C and 6B in the combo, so they'll be able to tech relatively quickly without adding much damage. It's generally advised to just stop at the j.236236C, since RCing it would require a full 100 meter and rarely allows you to extend the combo much further.

Edit: Yes, the combo should be able to work in CS1 v1.03.

Its ok its Valk remember haha adding a second 6C after landing a first 6C fatal or not in corner can still pull off a good 6k damage with meter which is very good during a match its the 6B you have to avoid doing twice along with adding a third 2C

[Sahgren]

While the repeat proration from 6C isn't nearly as harsh as it is from 6B, it's still good to get into the habit of remembering to only do it once. The 2C > j.A is easier than 6C > j.A as an added bonus.

Still, point taken. Don't freak out and immediately drop the combo if you accidentally do the second 6C. Just cut the combo shorter.

Though I'm not certain what's wrong with adding a third 2C. The proration on that move is very good; there isn't any penalty for doing it as many times as you can feasibly fit in a combo.

[goldenxservbot]

While the repeat proration from 6C isn't nearly as harsh as it is from 6B, it's still good to get into the habit of remembering to only do it once. The 2C > j.A is easier than 6C > j.A as an added bonus.

Still, point taken. Don't freak out and immediately drop the combo if you accidentally do the second 6C. Just cut the combo shorter.

Though I'm not certain what's wrong with adding a third 2C. The proration on that move is very good; there isn't any penalty for doing it as many times as you can feasibly fit in a combo.

What do you mean by "there isn't any penalty for doing it as many times as you can feasibly fit in a combo"? IF you have them in the corner or ANYWHERE really theres no need for a third 2C ever its always going to be two 2Cs if you want the combo to be even more damaging/hurtful

for example if it was started off of 6C in the corner then its going to be one 2C for the 6C and the second for the 6B you kick them upwards and do the whole shi-bang as wolf that leads to kunig or sturm for an easy 6k plus combo

[Sahgren]

I meant it exactly as I said it. If you were in a situation where you could punish with 2C, there's nothing wrong with adding a third or even a fourth 2C depending on the combo. Take this combo for example (courtesy of Leo7):

2C > 236B RC > 2C > 6C > 2C > 6B > 2C > j214B > 6D > w[j236A > 236A > 236B > j236B > j7C > jB > jB > land 5D] > 5B > 2C > jB > jB > jC (7119 Damage, 54 MG)

This combo does 7.1k damage, builds its own meter for super to put it up to 8.3k, and uses five 2Cs in it. To my knowledge, this is the highest damage practical combo that Valk has.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Sahgren