BatousaiJ Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 Meh, people will look at Tsubaki's improved damage and say that she's a better character now because of it but it's mostly due to 5D and how we can actually charge while still be in position to continue the pressure that really makes the difference, before we had to choose between the two at any given time. The whole motto of "stay close and don't let em get away" for every other closed ranged pressure character now applies to Tsubaki and it's a beautiful thing.
Jourdal Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 @BatousaiJ All people care about is damage lol, thats why 90% of YT...and most netplayers think Tager is an OP POS and needs to be nerfed (and hazama needs some massive buffs D: ). Fucking lulz Axis. Even her AI is aware of this fact
advancedNoob Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 Arc are on the right track with balancing imo. Loops are fine, but they should really be corner only and shouldn't allow more than 5K damage. In the news section I finally see a release date for PS3 BBCS2 - 05/12! Hope this is true. Get ready Batou, my new Ragna is hell, should be fun
pktazn Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 *Cough* IBNERFGAVEHERACTUALPRESSURE *cough* I see nothing wrong with this :D
TD Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 Idk, Tsu still looks bad to me. Not horrible, but it doesn't look like she'll be top tier anytime soon. Of course this is just theoryfighter but she still looks like a character with gimmicks instead of true mixup. Maybe that's a good thing... she can still troll well at least :
Nini Heart Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 Idk, Tsu still looks bad to me. Not horrible, but it doesn't look like she'll be top tier anytime soon. Of course this is just theoryfighter but she still looks like a character with gimmicks instead of true mixup. Maybe that's a good thing... she can still troll well at least : What do you qualify as true mix up?
Jourdal Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 She looks solid mid at least....the funny thing is despite all the tier shifting and stuff, for the most part it's the same as CS1, tsubaki is still rarity. You maybe see one or two REGULARLY, still tons of ragnas, tons of jins. I'd say there's less Bangu's though.
TD Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 Like off the top of my head, Rachel 5b into mixup, litchi 5b, people with command overheads like gauntlet hades/ensenga, etc. She has a overhead that is lacking in options leading into it and its quite easy to see and telegraph. With charge the same thing applies, except its unsafe to jump out and unblockables if you don't, so I guess that would qualify :/ she still has a horrid approach and 5b is like her only tool to keep opponents honest. I just don't think tsu will put enough fear into the game unless its like online or something. I guess its all about conditioning with her but that didn't work out to well before, idk.
Nini Heart Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 I'd say there's less Bangu's though. Can't say i'm sad about that.
pktazn Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 (edited) She looks solid mid at least....the funny thing is despite all the tier shifting and stuff, for the most part it's the same as CS1, tsubaki is still rarity. You maybe see one or two REGULARLY, still tons of ragnas, tons of jins. I'd say there's less Bangu's though. Really? (Not about Tsubaki I know she's rare lol). Feels like a mix. There's more character variety than CS1 imo though that could be the inclusion of four new characters haha. I think we still see Jin and Ragna often because they were popular in the CT and it's not like they were bad in both iterations of CS so people stayed and got better with them. EDIT: I personally think Tsubaki has terrible mix-up. I'm probably playing her wrong but it doesn't feel like I have enough options to really get my opponent. Edited April 15, 2011 by pktazn
Jourdal Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 I think its the new characters...and other players subbing so many openly (Kaqns hazama was seen very briefly in CS1). I can't help but feel there's more Litchi's as well, and of course more Noels. @Nini Heart, Bangu isn't top tier anymore you gotta let the grudge go =(
Airk Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 I'm with AdvancedNoob - ASW is clearly trying to tone down the level of stupid. And lets face it, nobody likes being blown up with a 7k combo, especially when it's mostly one move repeated 6+ times. Maybe you can "appreciate" the amount of execution involved, but it still makes for really uninteresting fights. WRT to Tsubaki, the thing is that she can just KEEP BEATING on your block now. I need to run the numbers, but I suspect that there are plenty of places where you can't even IB your way out of her strings, and with 6B and 22C being +1 on block, she has safe string enders that leave her at advantage. Is her overhead mighty? No, not particularly, but you still need to be able to keep that, throws, IAD overheads, and 22D unblockables all in your head and be prepared to counter any of them...all the while with mashing A being a one way trip to counter-hit-ville. Really that's what it comes down - against Tsubaki, you now have to play a guessing game about when you can try to mash out against her. Thought that was going to be a 22D charge and hit A, but it turned out to be a 22C? Ooops. Counterhit! Thought she was moving in for a throw and she just continued her string? Counterhit! Etc. Is she TOP tier? No, because she doesn't have any stupid broken corner combos - because that's pretty much what differentiates the top tier from the strong mids: the ability to do 6k+ off any random arse hit in the corner. A tiny bit less untech time or a tiny bit more proration on the Makoto/Noel/Hazama train, and we'd have a balanced game.
zaeris Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 wasn't the idea of Gatling pressure along with the her B and C move requiring to be air barrier to be one of her advantage and also her ability to keep people stationary for a while.
Jourdal Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 Um you should look into more than just Tsubaki if you think Hazama, Makoto and especially noel get that kind of damage of random hits. The only character you see breaking 7k is actually hazama :V,and makoto but only in the hands of Tsuji and Goro. Also using top level japanese players as the standard is a dumb idea, everyone on YT bitching about noel due to what r-1 does...but that's r-1 arguably one of the better or best Noels. Or doing the same with makoto because they see what Tsujikawa and Goro, probably the best Makotos in japan, are doing with them. I doubt every random noel online or off is going to haida you into oblivion or every haz bust out 8k. I don't feel like looking for it but im sure stunedge or someone said at one point "Balanced =/= fun" coughnooneplaysvirtuafightercough. @Zaeris, pretty much everyone has Air Unblockable 5B's and 5C's
LunaKage Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 I saw some Tsubakis doing IAD crossups, and since 5B has a good level and is jump cancelable, I'm betting they wouldn't be able to mash out or jump out too easy.
TD Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 Hopefully I'm wrong. I do want to possibly dump mu for her as a sub if she's competitive enough. otherwise back to trolling :D
Airk Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 Um you should look into more than just Tsubaki if you think Hazama, Makoto and especially noel get that kind of damage of random hits. The only character you see breaking 7k is actually hazama :V,and makoto but only in the hands of Tsuji and Goro. Also using top level japanese players as the standard is a dumb idea, everyone on YT bitching about noel due to what r-1 does...but that's r-1 arguably one of the better or best Noels. Or doing the same with makoto because they see what Tsujikawa and Goro, probably the best Makotos in japan, are doing with them. I doubt every random noel online or off is going to haida you into oblivion or every haz bust out 8k. ... We make our tier lists based on these people, (And the theoretical "max skill" people) but we're not supposed to BALANCE based on them? Nonsense. Besides, changes that only break combos that most people can't do don't impact the people who can't do them, so who cares? I don't feel like looking for it but im sure stunedge or someone said at one point "Balanced =/= fun" coughnooneplaysvirtuafightercough. Balanced doesn't equal fun, but neither does it prevent fun. And getting blown up the corner is no one's idea of entertainment. So fine, call a "reducing the stupid" patch instead of a "balance patch". Because everyone always says this game is stupid, right? :P
Jourdal Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 We? as in america? our opinions are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The top tier in this game doesn't even seem OP imo, just top tier..if you get what i'm saying. People shit on this game all the type and still play the hell out if it so that doesn't really matter. This has gotten way off topic, so I'm done theory fighting, time to get off DL and play the actual game.
BatousaiJ Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 It's fun to theorycraft and speculate but given I haven't played CS II against single a live opponent yet, it'd be foolish for me to even try to weigh in where she might be on the tier list. The only thing that's universally clear is that she's improved a good deal from her non-viable CS 1 counterpart and that's plenty enough for me. Also commenting on some videos I've seen of late, Noel and Hazama look scary as hell but I'm not getting the same "what the hell can I do to win" off the Jin players I watch even though I know he's very strong. Not sure if it's because I've found most Jins pretty easy to handle or whatever previously but he doesn't seem all that hard to fight against but that one guy that snipes that arrow super of his like a damn assassin, jesus. A quick mental note of characters as personal impression: Litchi - Still very strong and daisharin corner shenanigans is still godlike but seems more manageable midscreen. Hakumen- Overall damage reduction and j.D nerf has me breathing easier. Tager - Tager vs Tsubaki was a damn nightmare but with the change to IB and a DP that's no longer projectile makes me think this match up should be more even if not in Tsubaki's favor now. Bang - Still annoying as hell but less... retarded.
Jourdal Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 The assassin jin is Ren lol. I think you feel that way about jin because they're so many of them..and even the "lower" jins like Yutta come off as very solid. Usually though if there's a jin in the mix they go really far in these ranbats or events. But outside of Buppa,R-1,Ren etc....all the s tier can still be bodied by a ragna or bang if they're not good enough.
Nini Heart Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 I think its the new characters...and other players subbing so many openly (Kaqns hazama was seen very briefly in CS1). I can't help but feel there's more Litchi's as well, and of course more Noels. @Nini Heart, Bangu isn't top tier anymore you gotta let the grudge go =( Eh I never had a grudge. I was too scrubby when I was playing Noel for tiers to matter. Now i'm playing Makoto and Bang is at worse an even match-up, so no grudge there. It's just when a character is over played, he eventually starts looking boring. Thank god this hasn't happened in CS2 yet and I can enjoy high level play from pretty much every character without going "oh boy here we go again" like I did in CS1 with Litchi and Bang,
zaeris Posted April 16, 2011 Posted April 16, 2011 @Zaeris, pretty much everyone has Air Unblockable 5B's and 5C's That wasn't my aim, which is the emphasize her pressure string is better then most and with the new changes to IB and air unblockable she uses that to her advantage more so than other characters, not counting quicker D stock charge... meaning she has easier access to stronger stock combo. But thats one of the changes that reflect in tsubaki, so I don't agree with mix up been determinate to her when her pressure couple with her frame traps is quite good.
TD Posted April 16, 2011 Posted April 16, 2011 damn makoto must really love for loli's to run their faces. 3 6b's to the forehead, ouchies.
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