[CS2] Iron Tager General Discussion

[PSOInvictus]

Only Litchi makes me feel free. Oh well, everytime I watch videos of CS2 Tager, I know one month down the road all it will be is the shit again. Hurray 6A super armor.....hurray my weakness is lows goddamn it

[FlyingVe]

If only Tager actually had a good... um... button... *sigh*.

[PSOInvictus]

One thing Tager can look forward to. The first three weeks you get to rape everyone for free

After that though....eitherway alot of the stuff I was looking forward to does not look as awesome now.

[FlyingVe]

Tager always gets to rape while everybody else is figuring stuff out.

To be fair, Tager in CS1 and CS2 is still, on the low side of okay. It's not like CT where everybody raped him for free. Still, he has so many bad matchups that your chances of winning a tournament with him are quite low. Arakune, Lambda, Mu, Valk, Hazama, Carl, these matchups are shitty by design unless something major changes in the game. (Double jump please )

[PSOInvictus]

I play pot alot at a friends house, so when I come home and play CS I always try to do double jump shit with Tager. Sad day

[FlyingVe]

My list is almost straight from pot:

Double Jump

Faster jabs and lows

faster jump (he's already huge, he doesn't need a slow as sin jump too)

[Darlos9D]

How about they make his move that's supposed to be good for dealing with projectiles ACTUALLY USEFUL FOR DEALING WITH PROJECTILE SPAMMING CHARACTERS.

[Nobus3r1]

My list is almost straight from pot:

Double Jump

Faster jabs and lows

faster jump (he's already huge, he doesn't need a slow as sin jump too)

I think it's fair to generalize that in any fighting game the quality of the grappler will be largely determined by the quality of his normals relative to the rest of the cast and his movement/movement options relative to the rest of the cast. GG:AC Potemkin has normals that other characters actually have to respect and viable movement options even in the absence of an air dash. SSFIV actually is one of the most compelling cases for this argument as it has 4 grappler characters at very disparate levels of quality to compare to one another with Abel as the best and Hakan as by far the worst. I would also say that so far my limited experience with AH3 would lead me to lump Kira in with Potemkin, i.e. solid normals and due to the nature of the game movement isn't an issue though lacking a Hammerfall or Slidehead analog definitely puts her below Pot. Looking at Iron Tager from this perspective it's not hard to see why he's a shittily designed character. His movement blows and his normals might be the worst in the game. Flame away, I guess.

[FlyingVe]

@Darlos:You mean like a double jump? or other mobility option?

Tager doesn't need a way to straight up smash someone for using projectiles, just a way to avoid them or at least make them more deliberate in using them. Projectile invulnerable Spark bolt is another idea I've heard.

@Nobus: in SSF4 alot of the strength of the grapples comes from oki. Oki in BB is different and prevents that from working so well. Also, Abel isn't really a pure grappler.

But yeah, Tager's normals are pretty ass, and he needs them to be better to really be respected.

Edited January 24, 2011 by FlyingVe

[evilben]

a somewhat good anti air would be nice too...

also thoughts on the new 6a. will it be possible to 6a >> 2c >> AC a blocking opponent who comes in high?

[Darlos9D]

@Darlos:You mean like a double jump? or other mobility option?

Tager doesn't need a way to straight up smash someone for using projectiles, just a way to avoid them or at least make them more deliberate in using them. Projectile invulnerable Spark bolt is another idea I've heard.

Well yeah, greater general mobility overall would be a plus, as everyone has said.

Projectile invuln spark bolt... now that is a really neat idea. That would REALLY make projectile characters get wary once that meter fills, as opposed to just giving them a greater reason to spam so they can catch you in the startup frames and make you waste your meter.

I somehow doubt that'll ever happen though.

[Heroic_Legacy]

also thoughts on the new 6a. will it be possible to 6a >> 2c >> AC a blocking opponent who comes in high?

Always worked. But how often do you anti air with 6A? Never. It's not an anti air. So don't use it as such. It isn't 6P.

Tager v Mu is now 9-1. Mu only got better and more combos. Tager already lost that matchup 7-3 and could only win if you could get an advantage on their mind rather than their character. Now it's more like LOL YOU LOSE. And 6A vs Mu will help her get more hit confirm to get a CH 3C for the non techable state. Hooray.

Instant Block made so many strings punishable it was amazing. Look at the (Now obsolete) instant block thread. But there's nothing we can do about that now. Tager is dead.

Projectile invuln spark bolt... now that is a really neat idea. That would REALLY make projectile characters get wary once that meter fills, as opposed to just giving them a greater reason to spam so they can catch you in the startup frames and make you waste your meter

??? It beats every projectile in the game. If it has a chance to trade with a projectile just rapid on SB hit and block the projectile, then continue with the combo. Waste meter to get damage? Not a problem imo.

Edited January 24, 2011 by Heroic_Legacy

[Mike Z]

"Projectile invulnerable spark bolt" means having the startup of the spark be projectile invulnerable so you can actually get the projectile part off. I've been suggesting that since CT. :^) I'm fine getting hit out AFTER I throw it, but getting hit beforehand by a floor spike or something else you were attempting to beat is pretty bad. Especially since it has something like 12f startup...

[FlyingVe]

Another option would be to give Spark some kind of crazy startup, like 5 frames or something. Sure that's mad powerful, but it prorates pretty bad and you only get one. Plus it would make it more useful in other match-ups.

Also, the problem with CS2 6A as an anti-air is that it doesn't have super armor during the active frames, so you couldn't release the 6A until after they contacted you. Then 6A is so slow they'd just punch you out of it. Super armor 6A is for baiting slow stuff and reversals, and that's about it.

Also, Mu did lose damage and her oki of normal hits (you could lock Tager down with it). But her keep-away got big buffs, and that was always the problem with the matchup.

[Heroic_Legacy]

5f spark bolt would make it his fastest non super reversal.

[Nini Heart]

??? It beats every projectile in the game. If it has a chance to trade with a projectile just rapid on SB hit and block the projectile, then continue with the combo. Waste meter to get damage? Not a problem imo.

Loses to Jin's D Ice sword and platinum's missiles.

It also loses to Void and Distortion projectiles.

[Osuna]

IB got nerfed as far as the number of frames it cuts off of guardstun, but didn't everything get their animations shortened (attacks etc.)? I thought I read that. Wouldn't that basically mean that IB is still removing the same % of frames, Proportionately, to what it did in CS? Now if they didn't change the number of standard (non-IB) guardstun frames on all moves, that totally throws everything out of whack. Anybody know? If this is true, everything would essentially be the same, but faster.

The change you're referring to, I believe was the change to hitstop. IB was indeed nerfed and Tager is indeed F'd. Once again pessimism, has prevented me from being let down by tager buffs.

[Manta]

My it all went rather depressing in here didn't it?

[FlyingVe]

5f spark bolt would make it his fastest non super reversal.

I don't think the problem with this situation is spark being fast. A grappler should have some faster moves. I still say make 5A 5f.

[PSOInvictus]

It is pretty annoying to get hit by the projectile you wanted to beat during the start up of Spark Bolt.

[Silius]

I don't think the problem with this situation is spark being fast. A grappler should have some faster moves. I still say make 5A 5f.

5F is a bit overkill, maybe 6F.

But really, a faster A wouldn't solve Tagers problems. His biggest problems come from certain matchups, mainly vs zoners. Tager is not properly balanced. He has some great stuff like his CS2 magnetism pull, primer breaking stuff, yada yada, but that doesn't really help him if those things weren't really stuff he needed.

I mean even after Tager's CS2 buffs it still doesn't help him deal with Arakune.

Realistically though, Tager should not have it easy to get in on opponents (he's a grappler), but he should be stronger up close to compensate.

[FlyingVe]

Tager is always going to lose to zoners, the shame is that once Tager gets in, he isn't all that great. Plenty of characters beat him at HIS idea range. Somebody (Henkai) on DL once said that a grappler should be "The king fucking shit of that range" and I think he's right. Speeding up his normals would strengthen his frame traps and help train people not to jump (at which point you can grab they punk ass). In addition, with a 5F 5A frame traps, pressure, and oki get much stronger. Things like Gadget Finger, A/Bsledge, 2B, etc... suddenly have 2 less frames of leeway (assuming you used the 5A).

Edit: I really should be saying 'faster normals' instead of 5A, but that move stands out as being his fastest move (save 720C and 360B) and it's painfully slow.

My opinion.

Edited January 25, 2011 by FlyingVe

[evilben]

#1 rage moment, when a zoner characters command crab beats your super grab... heres looking at you hazama!

faster normals would be good and all, but the problem with the zoners is you are lucky if you get in close enough to hit them once and in a game with bursts you wont be able to keep them there. i think a sledge break would be ideal, or a projectile invuln spark, just to make zoners think twice about spamming. even that though wouldnt really be a cure all, most zoners can and do spam from above sparks range... maybe the ability to do spark in the air... or a variant that shoots it 45degrees up... that would finally solve that shitty problem of the unstoppable hazama run away

[Darlos9D]

For dealing with people jumping around far away I was thinking something along the lines of a Heavenly Tager Buster would be nice. Sitting on full spark meter and 50 heat would terrify the shit out of any opponent at that point... especially if we threw in projectile invuln on spark bolt's startup.

In general, I've always said we've needed some kind of anit-air super. More reliable regular anti-airs would be nice too of course, but it'd be fun to ruin some jumpy bastard's day from a good ways across the screen with a well-placed super.

The diagonal spark bolt is a neat idea though.

Overall though I have to agree with the sentiment that Tager needs to be absolutely awesomeshit up close, and he isn't. Can we have his CT damage back please? (relatively at least)

[FlyingVe]

Actually, in CS2 his damage is relatively high. Most characters can't do that kind of damage without the corner (and even then). However, he gets very low damage off several moves (like 5A) but gets mag and gadget (maybe). In a game where lots of midscreen stuff is barely cracking 2k (Fuck you makoto and Noel), his CS1 damage doesn't look as crummy as it used to.

Tager doesn't need an amazing anti-air so much as he needs a way to get people to stop jumping. Fast normals and lows hit people when they push up, or out of jump start-up. Another problem Tager has, is that, even if he hits someone out of jump startup with 5A, he can't combo... at all. Also, the new air unblockables do alot to solve this problem, but Tagers normals are too slow to take advantage of it like other characters.

My personal opinion on Tager vs Zoners, is that, that matchup has to suck (unfortunately, BB characters have alot of good zoning tools). If he had the tools to easily close the gap on keep-away characters that would be broke as hell against alot of other characters. Instead, his reward for getting in should be better. (Projectile invulnerable spark just insure the move does what it supposed to fucking do in the first place). I don't think more reward means more damage, but instead just having a better up close game. Another idea I've heard would be to make gadget like Ragna's 22C, where you had time to tag them during stagger recovery (which would force a block).

Edited January 25, 2011 by FlyingVe