[CS2] Iron Tager General Discussion

[Nini Heart]

I agree with Ve. Tager is a joke at close range and a joke from far too.

He's kinda like Hakan. He has no reversal till he gets 50 meter, his normals suck, he barely has any combos and they do NO damage compared to the rest of the cast, he has no safe ways of getting in and staying in, and it doesn't really matter if he's in or not since everyone has better normals and reversals than him.

I mean I play Makoto and the only time I start thinking when I vs a Tager is when he's an I.B monster and even then, I need to fuck up big time for him to win.

Arcsys should get inspiration from SSF4 Abel when tweaking Tager. Abel seems to me like a very well designed grappler. A fast way to get in, damaging close range combos, frame traps where your only alternative is to DP or Jump, a good command grab, good pokes, a decent anti air, ridiculous mix up and okay ish reversal options.

Zangief is a good grappler too but he lacks a safe way to get in. He has ridiculously good pokes and a stupidly good oki game to make up for that though.

Tager needs a LOT of stuff to be a good character in Blazblue.

What I think would make him better:

1. More + frames on GF. GF should really limit the opponent's options to block the mixup or reversal

2. A better way to get in. Some thing like Abel's roll or T.Hawk's dive with less recovery

3. Better/faster normals(includes AA).

4. Unlimited Tager's sparkbolt gauge. And startup projectile invincible spark bolt.

5. More damaging combos. It's sad that a 2C fatal gets 4k at best.

6. Command grab grab invincibility. I laugh so hard when I walk up to Tagers as Hazama and CG them on wake up while they try to 720.

7. Anti air grab super.

Don't think Arcsys is ever gonna make him good though.

[natearistata]

Obviously the solution is to give Tager breathless

[FlyingVe]

<insert character here> + Breathless = win?

Yep, sounds about right...

[Silius]

@ FlyingVe

Regarding the stuff about Tager being the sh*t at close range, that's what I meant with my previous post. He's not the sh*t at close range, he's sh*t at close range (slight exagerration).

His mix-up should be strong, but with short reach. He should be better at stopping you from escaping once you're in Tagers range (better options vs backdashes and jumps).

Magnetism should help Tager keep them close to him better as well, it should not really be used as a poor attempt at pulling the opponent closer (since it sucks at that, especially vs zoners).

People should be afraid when they are close to Tager.

I'm tired now and groggy as hell, so these ideas are probably bad... but:

¤ 6A should stop backdashes better (pulls in even when you hold & delay it) [stupid that a bunch of chars can escape Tager so easily w. their backdashes]

¤ 623C needs to be a tad faster and needs a bigger lower hitbox (latter might be fixed in CS2) [better at stopping jumps and if you catch them as they try to jump out with your 5A it should lead into a 623C>236B>22D or something]

¤ Better mix-up / oki up at close range.

¤ You should be able to do a jumping spark bolt and/or the move should have some projectile invul.

¤ Maybe make it so that he can "eat" his spark bolt to temporarily constantly pull the opponent in towards him. Not a strong pull, but enough to help keep the opponent in for a while.

¤ Maaayybe some changes to Sledge, as well.

And Tager shouldn't do good combo damage, he's a grappler. The combos should set up situations where he can catch the opponent in a grab. His damage should come from his grabs if you ask me.

Alt. copypaste Potemkin over Tager and call it a day

[FlyingVe]

Atomic collider is not anti-jump.

Otherwise, we can make lists of a bunch of specific things, it all boils down to two things, Tager needs better moves (normals and specials), and better mobility. I know that encompasses most of the character, but that's kinda the reality.

Edited January 26, 2011 by FlyingVe

[Isorropia]

And Tager shouldn't do good combo damage, he's a grappler. The combos should set up situations where he can catch the opponent in a grab. His damage should come from his grabs if you ask me.

That's a design philosophy that doesn't quite hold up. If your combos don't do good damage, what is the threat?

You land a small combo, and 'set up [a] situation where he can catch the opponent in a grab' and your opponent will....jump. Duh. A universal truth about grappler characters is that they cannot land a grab (offensively) until they prove they can win the round without using it. If your opponent will die in 3 throws, or 7 combos.....they'll just opt out of the throw every time, you need combos to do damage.

[evilben]

Actually, in CS2 his damage is relatively high. Most characters can't do that kind of damage without the corner (and even then). However, he gets very low damage off several moves (like 5A) but gets mag and gadget (maybe). In a game where lots of midscreen stuff is barely cracking 2k (Fuck you makoto and Noel), his CS1 damage doesn't look as crummy as it used to.

unfortunately his damage compared to other characters is irrelevant. the most tager can do off a FC even is about 4k lets say 6k with a super thrown in (maybe) in this case, he needs at least two combos to kill anyone, more for most of the cast. so call it three combos on average. then you need to deal with burst, so that bumps up the combo count to 4. a lot of characters give tager a hard time even getting in once let alone three times. with how not good GF is without RC we dont have a good way to keep people close to us so its hard to keep up pressure.

just my two cents.

[Bacon4thetakin]

@ evilben

wait....GF RC is gone? Where have I been!? :'(

Edited January 26, 2011 by Bacon4thetakin

[Nini Heart]

@ evilben

wait....GF RC is gone? Where have I been!? :'(

How did you read that in his post?

[A.X.I.S.]

I'm tired now and groggy as hell, so these ideas are probably bad... but:

¤ 6A should stop backdashes better (pulls in even when you hold & delay it) [stupid that a bunch of chars can escape Tager so easily w. their backdashes]

¤ 623C needs to be a tad faster and needs a bigger lower hitbox (latter might be fixed in CS2) [better at stopping jumps and if you catch them as they try to jump out with your 5A it should lead into a 623C>236B>22D or something]

¤ Better mix-up / oki up at close range.

¤ You should be able to do a jumping spark bolt and/or the move should have some projectile invul.

¤ Maybe make it so that he can "eat" his spark bolt to temporarily constantly pull the opponent in towards him. Not a strong pull, but enough to help keep the opponent in for a while.

¤ Maaayybe some changes to Sledge, as well.

And Tager shouldn't do good combo damage, he's a grappler. The combos should set up situations where he can catch the opponent in a grab. His damage should come from his grabs if you ask me.

Alt. copypaste Potemkin over Tager and call it a day

I want to adress this.

1. 6A does punish backdashes even without mag if your close enough and with mag if your a little further away, in CS2 Tager's 6A pulls when held.

2. Yes I can agree with it but for exchange for a larger lower hit box we lose gadget>RC collider tech trap which isn't that bad.

Why you ask because if collider was faster it would hold up better as a AA...that and if its invulnerability kicked in earlier.

3. Its a shame that our best anti jump is 2B>5B>2B so on and it pushes people out too far to do a command grab.

Oki would be better for BB if tech rolls was removed.

4. I prefer it if spark was guaranteed execution like lambda's 214D which will come out despite getting hit at X frames.

this way it will trade and Tager wins out on trade with spark bolt most the time anyways.

Projectile invul just seems kinda meh to me.

5. Not so great an idea but nice attempt.

6. Sledge needs a "break" like hammer fall.

I also like the say Tager needs his normals to be 1 or 2 frames faster...either that or some of them have a level increase.

Normals being air unblockable in CS2 is nice but we don't get rewarded too well for it.

[Manta]

Make sledge a low hit, make it feintable (so you can use it as a projectile invulnerable command dash) and then make the feintable version still cancellable into hammer.

Command dash and low/high/feint mixup in one move.

Edited January 26, 2011 by Mike Z
tis "feint", ha I nitpicked you for once!

[Silius]

@ FlyingVe

Didn't mean for Collider to be anti jump, but since it only covers a certain part of the screen, has no projectile invul or stuff like that it makes it overall a rather lackluster punish move (that has its own meter). Some characters can also become relatively safe while doing their stuff while they are in the air. Spark Bolt needs a slight buff.

And I agree. Slightly faster normals (especially the moves with poor range, like 2B) and maybe even a new normal to help with punishes from 5A or give him better mixup options.

Dunno about the mobility part, since he's supposed to be a big fat grappler like Zangief that deals good damage when close. If you increase his mobility his damage needs to be toned down. I honestly don't think they should change his mobility too much, mostly just give him better tools. Example, I would prefer buffs like say make j.C projectile invul over increased mobility.

@ Isorropia

I didn't mean to nerf his combo damage, I simply meant that you shouldn't buff it.

Personally, I don't like the idea of Tager breaking 5-6k without meter (especially without a grab as a starter).

So if they buff 623C with for example speed & better hitbox and maybe make it deal more damage if it's the starter you would have good ground and "air" grabs.

@ A.X.I.S.

Regarding 6A, I know you can use it as a punish a.t.m., just not for all characters (Lamda, Mu, Arakune come to mind). You have limited options against that after a 22D, but again that's only after 22D.

And tech rolls wouldn't be too bad if you could punish them better.

Not really fond of Spark Bolt w. projectile invul either, but it simply needs to get buffed a bit to serve as a better punish.

Heh, well the "eat" part came up when my stomach growled last night from hunger. But generally I feel that magnetism should help Tager keep the opponent in, not bring them in.

Yeah, Hammerfall is great, but it just seems kind of lazy to "Eh... we can't fix it so we'll just make it into a Hammerfall".

Of course, it would work.

But eh, we'll see how they buff Tager in the next game (or patch?). I have a feeling they'll do the direct opposite of what Tager players want though

[Bacon4thetakin]

How did you read that in his post?

Okay, reread it this morning (really tired last night). I took "how not good GF is without RC" as no more RC after GF rather than GF sucks unless you RC :P

[Osuna]

I understand fears about Tager breaking 5k or even 6k without meter. But he's never done that. has he? Right now (CS2) it looks like he can't break 4k meterless off anything except 360B, unless I missed something. The collider damage nerf implies to me that psychic collider would lead to less than 3k meterless. Before that, his ability to hit 4k meterless was dependant on him landing a very good starter like a J.D or a FC. Then there was the really really sad occasional 5A's that could only lead to 5B 3C GF. Heck if you're close enough to relaunch you don't even get 2k.

[FlyingVe]

@AXIS: exactly! You get it (I think)!

I want to address the lifebar comment (differently than Osuna, who is also correct). Damage is ALWAYS relative to the rest of the cast. Here's why. Your lifebar is a tool, just like all your other moves and abilities. The lifebar represents the amount of times you are allowed to guess (modified by you opponents damage output), and you combo damage represents the amount of times you have to guess right to win (modified by your opponents lifebar). Therefore, the rest of the cast doing less damage, does mean Tager's damage is better, because he will get more times to guess correctly.

With regards to mobility, nobody wants or expects Tager to be zipping around the screen like the other cast members, but there is alot of stuff that Tager HAS to deal with as a result of not having ANY mobility options. My personal favorite of which are Kyle's PinkThrow>j5AAAAA>Clap (only inescapable with Tager), and Mu doing Mu stuff.

With regards to Tager's mixup, the reason Tager is still oodles above his CT iteration (despite being the worst character still), is that e can guess right, and he will win if he guesses right (CT Tager could guess right and still lose). But there is still a big problem with his mix-ups and that is how self destructive and weak they are. Some people have joked that Tager mixups are 30/70 in their favor, this means that not only are they easy to get out of, but often Tager will get hurt more for attempting them than for landing them (the definition of hurt does not only mean damage). In addition, Tager can only guess one thing. For example, if Tager goes for a command grab, it loses to jump, reversal, and backdash; If Tager guess backdash, it loses to mashes(sometimes), jumps, and reversals; and so on and so forth. An example of this done better would be Abel in SF4 (sorry for the SF reference). After his step kick he can cr.lk+cr.lp~cr.hk>cr.lk. This will stop backdashes, jumps, mash attempts (including throw break), prevent counter throw attempts (if your timing is off), and set them up for another mixup. Tager has nothing like this.

In addition, I am of the opinion, that the USUAL reward for guessing right against the grappler, is simply to escape, not get a punish combo.

Edited January 26, 2011 by FlyingVe

[evilben]

my dmg vs his dmg isnt a helpful comparison, what it really boils down to is the comparison of the ratios my dmg:his life vs his dmg:my life, aka how many combos do i need to do to kill him. yes our comparison is still much better than most of the cast but you also need to consider how difficult it is for a character to actually get a combo off. tager doing 3.5k/combo needs 3 to kill most the cast not factoring sub optimal combos footsies damage or bursting.

unfortunately a lot of tagers guessing ends up being a guess on how to advance a little on an enemy. so your outcomes are A) be closer but still not close enough to do anything or B) take damage. a lot of the characters make you play this style of guess multiple times and if you guess wrong once you are back where you started. the reason i say that tagers damage relative to the damage done by the rest of the cast is irrelevant is that even if you can kill anyone in two combos, if you only ever get one combo off, no mater how much more damage you do per combo than them, you cannot win.

this is why zoning is tagers biggest enemy.

i would completely agree with you if every guess resulted in us taking damage or them taking damage, but it doesnt. the things that matter for tager doing damage are A) how many times can tager touch the opponent and B) how much life do they have compared to the damage that tager can do.

Edited January 26, 2011 by evilben

[FlyingVe]

Because it's easier to land more combos if the other guy doesn't kill you in 2 (once again Fuck you Makoto and Noel). Getting zoned will always be Tagers enemy, in fact that's how you play against grapplers.

[evilben]

i guess what im trying to say is that the only way to make up for the ease that pretty much everyone of the cast has at zoning tager is to make him do insane damage, which wouldnt be appreciated by anyone.

that said, i think the only real way to improve tager is to give him better approach options. be in improving spark, improving sledge, a double jump, or whatever.

the other option is to improve his ability to keep someone close once he finally does close in.

but back on topic. views about tager in cs2

i agree we didnt get much to brag about, the GF giving heat is probably the best thing we got... the hammer armor would be awesome if it wasnt just projectiles...

i think the new 6a could be useful, but mainly to condition your opponent to sweep you then hit them with a 360a. other than that, we didnt get much!

Edited January 26, 2011 by evilben

[Bacon4thetakin]

I agree that we didn't get much, but we did get a few more options which is always appreciated. Sure the new 6A might not be the best, but it's a nice option. I'd still say, in the end, we all just need to give it time- find the loopholes in the play of other characters, and fight the ongoing uphill battle of being tager players.

[A.X.I.S.]

Make sledge a low hit, make it feintable (so you can use it as a projectile invulnerable command dash) and then make the feintable version still cancellable into hammer.

Command dash and low/high/feint mixup in one move.

I was greatly amused by this post.

Heres the thing though.

We don't need him to be brain dead, a grappler should never be brain dead.

We just need him to have good tools to get the job done...that would make him brain dead.

I would love it if he can reverse gattling on more of his normals.

Something like:

5C>5B, 6B>5B, 6A>5C.

Those are just ideas being tossed around but they can help depending on the situation, except for 5C>5B that is just for shits and giggles.

[FlyingVe]

Reverse beats are nice an all, but the pushback on many of Tagers moves means that might do more harm than good, especially without a good option to reset your pressure.

Since were tossing around giggle-y ideas, I want his overhead to be more like bangs, in that it stops jumpouts. That combined with 4D seems okay.

[A.X.I.S.]

All those pokes links into 6A which pulls people back.

Now whats evil is if 6A>2B existed.

there we got repeatable pressure.

I also would like to say I do 6A>RC 2B and it really mixes things up.

Edited January 27, 2011 by A.X.I.S.
6A>2B would be unbelievably god like.

[FlyingVe]

6A>2B is brilliant. In fact, that's just the kind of thing Tager needs to buff up his close in game (in addition to faster normals).

6A pulling people back in works, but its pretty weak, even with the super armor.

Edited January 27, 2011 by FlyingVe

[Heroic_Legacy]

I read the last few pages.

CT was a vastly different game system was as well. With things like Danger mode being there for every burst to discourage bad bursting. Tager used this more than anyone since if he baited a burst (LOL autoguard bursts allow jump cancel IBs and whatnot) he basically automatically won the round if he had meter.

A Heavenly Tager Buster?

Potemkin didn't even use it for Antiair. Basically due to the fact it wasn't invulnerable and was able to be hit out of from the air. You used it to stop certain situations and lockdowns or you combo'd into it to get that minimum damage. Well, Potemkin was also designed to not be a grappler. There are tons of characters in the fighting game universe that aren't grapplers but control and dominate the close up game really well. Most of these characters hit really hard and have beefy as fuck normals that were also fast.

Why is Tager bad?

Remember in CS? Mori said that a grappler in the higher up tiers makes a game not fun. He wasn't referring to Potemkin. He was referring to early days Street Fighter 4 where everyone and their mother thought Zangief was god tier. Or Battle Fantasia's arcade edition where Donvalve had infinites on everyone because they forgot to put in pre-jump frames as being unthrowable.

So Tager is a grappler. But his normals betray him and he has no reversal that is actually useful. Lariat? 50 meter for one sure. And then it does mediocre damage for a super. 360? With enough practice you can notice the animation and stop attacking and jump out. Atomic Collider? Gets beat by most jumping moves anyway. 720? It's a true reversal, but in a losing fight you'll only get one. Or you won with it. Either way it's a 50/50 that will either win you the game or lose it.

Look at Super 4 Gief. How many times do you see Vangief depend on the 720 to win? Nope, Gief has footsies and combos. Look at Tager. He has no oki to the point that Gief has. His knockdown power is weak, he has no crossup (Don't give me j.2C as an answer either), and you don't need to respect an 11 frame 360! Tager is forced to rely on one move. 720. So therein lies gimmicks to find ways to land 720s consistently to put you in positions to win more games.

Most people who mained Tager were all about landing the 720 since it's little work to land over 60% because the opponent didn't hold up or messed up a combo or blockstring.

Reverse beat normals

Tager getting reverse beat gatlings wouldn't change anything other than oh i dunno, giving him an anti jump game? Frame traps? But those gatlings wouldn't help nearly as much as a level increase on moves or faster startup pokes.

Make 5B 5C combo normally please. So we can have 5B 5C HELLSU FANGU combos.

[A.X.I.S.]

If 5B had a level increase by itself it would be huge boon.

360A>5B>5C>6A>Collider would work on everyone which is 3k+ damage.

Why would we need to do the hells fang combo when we can reset pressure with A sledge, you gotta be a moron or have a DP to mash out of hitstun off a A sledge.

Also BB has no oki...thanks tech rolls.

Edited January 28, 2011 by A.X.I.S.