Aquapazza: Aqua+ Dream Match

[Dark Ranger88]

Just bought this game. Learning Tamaki (my first grappler). Should I do this, or will I hate myself?

 

All I wanna do is just crush people's faces...

[Dark Ranger88]

Hmm...I doubt anyone still checks this but...

 

Does anyone know what the invulnerability is like on Tamaki's command grabs?

 

I looked at the frame data on the wiki and I didn't see any info on the invuln.

[Aloci]

I think it's the A version of her half-circle grab (or B version. Whichever has longer start up) that has a ton of invul on it. My friend has gone through my Sasara super with it before rofl. I don't remember the invul on any of her other grabs.

 

Tamaki is the 2nd best character in the game. Pair her with the lightning assist for dirty stuff.

[SoWL]

Tamaki's grabs are 360 (speed, damage, no range), 623 (can be comboed into, can be blocked, can anti-air), and half-circle (start-up invuls, oki). She basically has everything a grappler might need.

[ehuangsan]

Tamaki's 360s have no invul. You can hit her out of it during her startup.

I think you can hit her out of 720 during the startup too, but her startup is only 6 frames long so good luck with that.

Her Germans have massive invul, but I don't know exact frame data. C German will stuff pretty much everything.

 

Tamaki is the most fun grappler in the history of fighting games.

She has heat knuckle, CvS2 run speed, an unblockable laser, Rugal's god press, and SSV enlightenment mode, which makes her a fair character.

The only reason that she's only 2nd best is because Chizuru beats some of the lower tier harder than she does. Tamaki is dead even with Chizuru and has no bad matchups and generally has all the fun while the other side suffers and tries to survive even if the other side is Chizuru.

 

You can also ignore your lifebar because if she isn't dead then it doesn't matter. You only need to see her face portrait to recognize when you are allowed to press the win button (lvl 3. SSV enlightenment).

[Dark Ranger88]

Thanks guys. Only on day 3 (lol), so I gotta learn to incorporate all of this stuff into my gameplan (especially the lightning BS).

 

*Sigh* Just wish I was into money when this game first came out T_T. (On the bright side, this is the only time my favorite character in a game is actually good)

[sibladeko]

KVO2K14 is on May 5th and features UMVC3 and Aquapazza.  Brackets HERE.

 

Quick look at them shows no OZ and less OZ mafia members/former SBO entrants/Tamaki army than usual so unless there are tons of clowns under alias my predictions will probably be inaccurate.

Rundown:

Block 1: kouya Chizuru will win this, unless kubo Morgan gets lucky

Block 2: Probably gobou Karulau

Block 3: hino Morgan, I haven't seen deguchi Hakuowlo play in a very long time

Block 4: Lot of good lesser known players: dagiri Karulau, seto Chizuru, tomy Multi, tenka Touka, Itorin Chizuru or Morgan. I guess Itorin, regardless of character choice

Block 5: Anyone besides kyamei Chizuru lol, I guess marusu Morgan (maybe Akatsuki Touka)

Block 6: Mizuchama Hakuowlo (1st pick) or Natsume Tamaki (2nd pick). Gamera (Sasara love pick) has a chance if he can get out of his side of the brackets and Mizuchama beats Natsume, because he can abuse the matchup (really stretching here)

Block 7: takakun Konomi, KOG Tamaki, nao Chizuru, in that order of likelihood

Block 8: nobi Tamaki, GO1 Chizuru...gonna go with nobi as the sole representation of the OZ mafia in this tournament, even if it's against GO1.

[Speakeasy]

Is there somewhere Dustloop-like (ie tons and tons of info) for this game? I'm an unconfident mofo and feel like I'd do better with something to learn from.

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[Elochai]

Is there somewhere Dustloop-like (ie tons and tons of info) for this game? I'm an unconfident mofo and feel like I'd do better with something to learn from.

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http://wiki.mizuumi.net/w/AquaPazza

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[Grimsley-San]

http://wiki.mizuumi.net/w/AquaPazza

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That wiki doesn't have much tho.

[sibladeko]

That wiki doesn't have much tho.

It definitely depends on the character you're playing...I've gone sort of OCD on only one character's page, but I haven't filled in the other character I play at all.

There's a flat out lack of interest for the Northeast Coast, (I'm not joking when I say I think only three players are qualified to talk about their characters in depth), and Norcal plays semi-regularly but probably won't bother filling in information.

The various JP wikis are rather lacking as well, a lot of my knowledge is just from testing against myself and watching certain players.

[ehuangsan]

I guess I could update some of the mizuumi wiki pages if people are interested.

Some of the stuff looks fairly out of date, and some of the stuff just needs to be filled in.

[ehuangsan]

New Aquapazza Tier list from Arcadia:

https://twitter.com/Kurushii/status/461916200352903168/photo/1

 

S Tamaki
A Touka, Konomi > Chizuru, Karulau
B Sasara, Morgan > Oboro, Arawn
C Hakuowlo, Multi > Riannon
D Manaka

 

Guess NorCal had it right all along when it was all Tamaki mirrors in the beginning. Good thing that everyone in NorCal has a pocket Tamaki since East Cost has banned Chizuru and all.

 

I've actually long suspected that Chizuru would eventually fall from being the best character, though I do wonder what everyone is doing with Touka.

[sibladeko]

They are mass "qualifying" (entering) tournaments and then losing first round is what they are doing.

Only two Touka teams made it to Round 2 in Examu Cup and one was a Touka mirror, the other had the best Konomi in the game on his team carry him.

 

I personally think the list is full of shit but that's just me.

Chizuru is still S, Touka is not A, Sasara and Oboro are not B (there is literally a single player of each of those characters in existence what the fuck Arcadia who the hell did you ask?), Multi is not C.

 

Edit: Please fill in Tamaki matchups ehuang Tamaki doesn't exist here even as a hood ornament.

[ehuangsan]

The thing with Arcadia tier lists is that they are always heavily biased towards new effective tech. It happened before with CvS2 tiers when P-Kyo was suddenly placed on the top of the top tier but below god tier because of all of the new things that they discovered with him and his recent tourney successes. Eventually he fell to the bottom of the top tier.

 

I suspect that is what is happening with Touka and Konomi, as recent tourneys seem to all have Konomi converge to Konomi/Yuma for reasons I don't quite understand, though in the past there were a variety of Konomis with Mizuki, Ma Ryan or Satsuki.

 

I do think the Multi ranking is complete nonsense. Dunno about Oboro; I think that may be bias due to the recent Camyu and Rathy tech that has been going on, but the new tech does make him more effective so it could be that he has improved.

[sibladeko]

The thing is Aquapazza in its current version (changes between 2.0 and 2.01 are basically only bug fixes and Boss Maryan) has been out for two years since April 2012.  Tech may have changed, but winning tech has changed very little.  The same people winning two years ago in 2.0 are still winning in 2.01.  OZ's mafia is still extremely dominant, and they are still using the same assists from two years ago with the exception of Serika counter-Tamaki tech now that assists can be changed mid-tournament.  And it's not just OZ's mafia too, anyone who qualified for SBO in 2012 falls under this, they are all still using the same characters and assists from back then.

 

For Examu Cup I was wrong in predictions a whopping two times out of all the first round matches, and it's not like I knew all the players.  Any time I saw an old SBO player/team from two years ago vs a new player/team with very high VP that I did not know I literally picked the SBO team to win it, and I was overwhelmingly right.  This is why in my more detailed analysis of the Examu Cup brackets I flat out dismissed 80% of the Toukas that entered, because only two of them had been in SBO.  To me the winning tech in this game has been relatively static, and with that, the tiers have been relatively static to me for a long time too.  This explains my deep-seated bias when I read something like "Octavia is actually a good assist" or "Ko-hatsu has been using all this new Rathy tech."  Does it beat SBO players using the same old tech from 2 years ago?  Time and time again I have been shown "no."

[Speakeasy]

Any Chizuru players have some good bread-and-butter combos for me? The wiki (thanks for linking it to me by the way, I thought it was for a game called Mizuumi and that alone and thus never clicked on it) has no combos listed for her.

[sibladeko]

Chizuru combos are really easy, if you think it will combo it likely will. I didn't really write any down because they take all of 5 minutes to figure out in training mode (this is not a training mode game) besides the situational Maryan ones, I guess I'll add some later.

For now, meterless midscreen is just 2A>(5A)>5B/2B>214B/5C/2C and BC>66C>214B. Corner is 2A>5B>5C>214B and BC>BC>214B. Throw is 6C>66C>214B and 4C>214C

Edit: Added some basics to wiki, I'll add more assist ones later.

[Aloci]

If I was going to change the top 5 of that list, it would be:

 

Tamaki, Konomi/Chizuru, Karulau, Touka

[iw2ma]

All i know is that Manaka is exactly where she should be on that list.

[Speakeasy]

Sibadleko, I can't find the quote button on Tapatalk, but thanks a ton. I figured that Chizuru would have ridiculous combos requiring perfectly-timed use of her DP and things like that. I assume you fan tack on 236236AB or 214214AB (depending on which will hit) to the end of certain meterless combos for more damage? Or do you want to preserve the 214 enders so you can have oki?

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[ehuangsan]

AP does not really have hard combos. Even Chizuru's fancy neutral tension double BC combos and multiple jump cancel lvl 3 mode combos are pretty easy to do after a few tries, although they are generally impractical.

Like sibladeko said, with Chizuru (and with pretty much any character in AP) the rule of thumb is if you can visualize it comboing then it probably combos.

 

Tacking on the super at the end depends on your meter, emotion and your style of play really. If you have extra meter or are in high emotion with <50% life then I would say add the Chizuru combination at the end. Though the BC x 2 corner combo should always end with the fireball super since that does massive amounts of damage.

[sibladeko]

So I read the article in full and it says they asked daigo hei and the rest of QZ for input, but honestly the explanations on contentious points are absolute garbage so I wonder if they just half-assed it and made shit up.

 

Explanation for Tamaki in S is I guess sound, they rehash her specials, her oki, her red tension stats, they say she has no weakpoints, something I would previously and still say applies more to Chizuru.  I don't mind Tamaki being in S.

 

Explanation for Touka in 2nd is extremely weak. Ok her C ground normals are strong and her dash cancel is what makes her good. Low risk high reward on a lot of things, throw in assist cover and you can go for mixups all day safely. I understand this. Her only weak point is rekkas are hard? Really Arcadia? What about the lack of a good reversal? What about the fact she's negative off dash cancel unless she commits to shorthops? What about the fact that CHIZURU KONOMI AND KARULAU EXIST IN THE GAME? Speaking of those three characters, "their strengths outweigh their weaknesses so they are in A." That's it. No explanation for why Chizuru is not in S anymore, no explanation about why any of those characters are actually worse than Touka.

 

Explanation for the top of B rank for Sasara is hilarious. "High specs and besides Touka, she doesnt have any huge weaknesses." The article then goes on to say that Sasara:Touka is 2:8. At this point I spit out whatever I was drinking and started laughing really hard. I mean holy shit no huge weaknesses except Touka? My only question at this point was, "If you think Sasara:Touka is 2:8, what the fuck is Sasara:Tamaki or Sasara:Chizuru or Sasara:Karulau?" Who did they ask, the only Sasara player who still plays in existence? I mean what the hell lopsided opinion is this?  Touka is a bad matchup, but it's not 2:8.  But if it is, then what the hell does that say about Chizuru and Tamaki who can delete half the buttons I use just by walking forward? Needless to say I strongly disagreed with this assessment.

 

Explanation for bottom of B rank is Arawn is equally silly.  Says he has strong specials, but his low emotion stats are weak.  Once he hits low emotion he dies.  This is from a character that has a super that specifically raises his tension one level. Nothing else is brought up besides his low emotion penalties.

 

No explanation is given as to why Oboro (super jokes there is only one Oboro player left in existence as well) and Morgan (I agree she should be here) are in B rank.

 

C rank just talks about RIannon. No information on why Hakuowlo (who I believe should be in there, contrary to some opinions) or Multi (who should definitely not be in there) are in C as well.

 

D rank was basically made to shit on Manaka. Bad movement, from beginning to end the match is at the opponent's pace, terrible neutral.

 

So there you have it, if you were expecting some actual new valid points to discuss I'm sorry there aren't any, just some things everyone already knows and some things that are downright wrong.

[sibladeko]

I assume you fan tack on 236236AB or 214214AB (depending on which will hit) to the end of certain meterless combos for more damage? Or do you want to preserve the 214 enders so you can have oki?

As ehuangsan said this is more personal preference, I am more conservative with my meter regarding super enders in general.  I really dislike going for Chizuru Combination enders unless it will kill.  I use Llyr so if I have free meters I will generally spend it on double 214B so I still maintain oki afterwards.  I like having meter to guard cancel (6BC) out or whiff punish with 236236AB on reaction.  An example of a matchup specific style change is also vs Riannon, I will save meter so I can 222AB Yuki snowflakes.

[ehuangsan]

I actually agree with a lot of their remarks, though the Touka stuff is something I would have to see to fully accept them.

 

Having tried the Sasara/Tamaki and Sasara/Chizuru matchup on both sides quite often (I use to main Sasara), I don't think the matchup is really that bad for Sasara as it looks on paper. Most likely only 4-6.

It's true that Tamaki and Chizuru delete a lot of Sasara's buttons which makes the matchup extremely counterintuitive for Sasara, and she is more or less forced to use Ma-Ryan as a partner. But as long as she has 2B and high damage options available she can fight back by playing fast and loose. Think CvS2 Iori style of play. I don't understand why the Touka matchup would be that bad (2-8 implies that the best Sasara player in the world would lose to American Toukas just because of the matchup), but again, I would have to see the Touka stuff to see why.

 

I also mash Arawn a lot and the Arawn stuff is truth. He is horrific and almost instantly losing in low emotion so you have to fight aggressively to avoid it. But it's extremely hard to do so since his guts are also pretty bad. The Ogre mode super mitigates that somewhat, but you have to find a safe point in time to use it, and that's not easy to do.

 

Chizuru also has many glaring weaknesses that are not easy to mitigate, which could explain her fall to A. I can imagine Tamaki and Konomi eventually surpassing her because of new nuanced exploits to those weaknesses (maybe the Konomi/Yuma trend has something to do with this), but the Touka stuff is still something I would have to see because Touka doesn't exploit those weaknesses that well.

 

I would've liked to see an explanation for Multi too.