Montreal: Le Thread Generale Pour Weeaboo Fighters

[oDHAOSo]

I'm talking about the mechanic where you mash 3 buttons simultaneously to cancel the recovery of whatever move you were doing. It's in Arcana and melty too (though a lot more situational). From what I understand frc is just a harder, less expensive, more rewarding rc. I'm guessing that you would have to appreciate rc before you can appreciate frc.

Edited August 13, 2013 by oDHAOSo

[sagacious]

yeah, the main differences to frc are

1) more restrictive (you can do an rc on any move that connects any time after it connects, but frcs are only at defined points)

2) works even on whiff (also, in GG, many projectiles can be frced even though in general projectiles can't be rced)

3) execution test (no buffer for frc and i'm pretty sure there's a no-mash mechanic for it, too)

4) costs half as much

overall the biggest difference is 1), i think, because RCs give you more of a chance to get creative.

[oDHAOSo]

Thanks for the suggestions sagacious. I'll try these out tonight.

[DerQ]

edit @derq: 'roman cancel' in guilty gear is short for 'romantic cancel.' i have no idea why they went with that name, but the announcer does say "ROMANTIC" when someone performs one

You see I didn't know that at all, the more you know

I'm talking about the mechanic where you mash 3 buttons simultaneously to cancel the recovery of whatever move you were doing. It's in Arcana and melty to (though a lot more situational). From what I understand frc is just a harder, less expensive, more rewarding rc. I'm guessing that you would have to appreciate rc before you can appreciate frc.

They make normally impossible stuff happen. One I'm particularly excited for is an RC on my upcoming blazblue character. It's a good move that gives knockdown and could be used aggressively and be efficient. The problem is that I have to be confident to hit if I use it at neutral since it's unsafe to just throw around. If I have 50 meter and you don't dodge it, it's has a lot of blockstun so using RC right after it is like spending 50 meter to impose my turn to pressure you which I desperately try to get going. RC makes it safe and gives me freedom to w/e after. If it lands, it's an excellent starter that can only be combo'd into using RC, so if I'm willing to spend 50 meter, it's win-win in most situations.

Now as for FRC, this as you said, a better, harder, more satisfying, more rewarding version of an RC. The cool thing about FRC is that you can just do them, since they cost 25 meter, if you don't have 50, why not just try them anyway? if you miss, too bad, if you succeed, awesome. It's low requirement to start using them for a high satisfaction level

To note, RC and FRC will accomplish very different goals, especially FRC that can be done on whiff unlike the regular RC. Venom's side charge shot is a good example. Shoot ball > FRC > PRESSURE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Once you start doing these by muscle memory in matches, that's where addiction kicks in

Edited August 13, 2013 by DerQ

[LeDom]

Heartless and/or LeDom still showing up tonight? Any others? Might not go if there's like 2 of us.

Not tonight, but I'll be here thursday for sure.

[sagacious]

Once you start doing these by muscle memory in matches, that's where addiction kicks in

cancels of all kinds are fun and addictive, i played the ds castlevanias solely because you could backdash out of attacks and crouch cancel out of backdash

[Essay]

cancels of all kinds are fun and addictive, i played the ds castlevanias solely because you could backdash out of attacks and crouch cancel out of backdash

I just look at it in the same vein of me being addicted to playing billiards on pool tables instead of playing billiards on a free website. Tactile execution can be fun in all walks of life!

[lofo]

I just look at it in the same vein of me being addicted to playing billiards on pool tables instead of playing billiards on a free website. Tactile execution can be fun in all walks of life!

Personally I prefer to play billiards in Guilty Gear.

[DerQ]

Personally I prefer to play billiards in Guilty Gear.

That, times ten. But don't worry, Xrd increased slightly realism in terms of how pool balls react to each other when hit. So now it's best of both worlds!

[lofo]

That, times ten. But don't worry, Xrd increased slightly realism in terms of how pool balls react to each other when hit. So now it's best of both worlds!

Oh yeah? I havn't seen any Xrd Venom footage. Tell me more! (Though I did see that sweet shot of his case opening)

[DerQ]

Oh yeah? I havn't seen any Xrd Venom footage. Tell me more! (Though I did see that sweet shot of his case opening)

If you use stinger aim, the Stinger ball has a followup movement according to shot strength. If you use S version, the ball bounces back and lay still there, if you use HS version, the ball follows then slows down. A theorical application is that you can shoot say a P ball using HS stinger aim, it will go across the screen, the stinger aim ball will stay at the same height but will stop moving (and be inactive) a little distance further. Teleport to it using the other ball's blockstun to cover for yourself and hit the ball mid-air.

[lofo]

If you use stinger aim, the Stinger ball has a followup movement according to shot strength. If you use S version, the ball bounces back and lay still there, if you use HS version, the ball follows then slows down. A theorical application is that you can shoot say a P ball using HS stinger aim, it will go across the screen, the stinger aim ball will stay at the same height but will stop moving (and be inactive) a little distance further. Teleport to it using the other ball's blockstun to cover for yourself and hit the ball mid-air.

That sounds complicated and hard to figure out, but pretty cool! That's the Venom ideal, though, hah.

I'm also pretty hype about being able to do backdash xx ball seisei without getting backdash xx dubious xx get CH and die.

[oDHAOSo]

cancels of all kinds are fun and addictive, i played the ds castlevanias solely because you could backdash out of attacks and crouch cancel out of backdash

I agree with you on the Castlevania cancels. I loved doing jump in slash, standing slash, backdash slash. I also loved doing similar things in the Megaman Zero games. Those are really just normal cancels though, the basics of most combos. I have a few problems with RC's that are really turning me off from them right now.

1. They're expensive, even at 25%. I would really much rather spend meter on a reversal or flashy damaging move. Meter is also pretty much required for basic defensive options in GG so you're giving up your reliable defensive options for a chance that you won't drop the follow up. Also the nature of costing anything makes them "unreliable" to me because its not a tool that I can rely on using. I don't even like that FBPuffball is an integral starter to Jam, and I need meter to do it.

2. It's a command that makes your character not do anything. With all other buttons you push in a fighter, they make you do some form of attack, or charge, or movement. RC's just make you stop and I have a hard time queuing my next move up when my cue is nothing.

3. You have to press 3 buttons. Again, its a "it's not what I'm used to" argument. Usually at any single time in combos, you're either pushing a button or inputting a motion. Its a very good habit to become precise in what buttons you push when (and not mash on multiple buttons at once), and this usually involves only pushing one attack button at a time. The exception is some Enders require a double button press (throw, super). FRC's require 3 buttons be held down at once, breaking the dial flow, and requires you to immediately start pushing buttons after. This might be more okay if I could macro it, but GG doesn't seem to have a KSH macro and everyone generally tells me macro keys are bad (hopefully not talking about melty).

4. It makes the impossible possible. Theres nothing shittier feeling to a starting player than being denied his small successes. If someone does an unsafe move, and I react appropriately, and try to punish it, and then I get punished in return, it feels like shit. Same thing with normal bursts: if I manage to hit confirm something for the first time in 10 rounds, and someone bursts out immediately, it feels like shit.

5. It doesn't guarantee damage. Even if you succeed to RC, dropping your combo after puts you in a worse spot than where you started. Again, a pretty strong deterrent if you're not 100% on your combos.

So yeah, all of these things are in my way of appreciating RC's and why I'm so confused that everyone else but me seems to like them.

TLDR; I don't have the RC feels.

[DerQ]

Snip

I don't post this as meaning to say "Shut up you're wrong" or that's dumb. But gonna try and see how I could maybe present the upsides to what you brought up and as to why RC is awesome.

1. I'm not too sure as I'm not super knowledgable about Jam, but she has lots of uses for Forcebreaks compared to other charachter's FRC. In AC, puffball being so good and in +R cards being a really good meter usage. I can see how you'd feel that way. Though on a lot of characters, FRCs are situational choice for an extra followup to a combo that can already knockdown. It's not only meter extension, some characters can make things "safe" thanks to whiffed FRCs. Again, not too sure this applies to Jam either.

2. If you have a hard time at first, I can imagine, but if you practice sequence > RC > sequence and eventually have it down in muscle memory, it's a really satisfying moment in a combo.

3. Part of the reason why it is satisfying is that for me. Pressing 3 buttons is a bigger commitment than just 1, you have to time that triple press, then you have to followup. This large commitment is just extra fun compared to the other buttons. I'd bet that when we RC, we press the button harder since it's so satisfying to do this sequence. You could hear the difference. Compare it to this clip. Pressing that NOS button is what it feels like to RC for a followup combo extension.

4. I totally see what you mean. But by playing over and over, you'll start to pay less attention to what you are already used to and you'll naturally be able to focus on stuff like your opponent's meter, his burst gauge. Don't worry about that for now, it takes a while, but eventually you'll just notice these things once you don't have to overthink your game. And when you notice and recognize these patterns, you'll think about stuff like using 50 meter to RC your combo and bait a burst.

5. It's a way of seeing it, I personally think if it's that big of an issue, you can play by not using them, but your execution will make you lack some other part of your game, not just combos. Though, this is personal preference here, but spending meter to be allowed to press more buttons is awesome.

Boring combo nerd loser daki-owner example : 5B > 5C > 2D

Awesome maximum button press corner carry joyful combos : 5B > 5C > 2D > RC > dash > 5C > 5D(2) > Dash > 6A > Superjump > j.D > j.D > Belial Edge

TL:DR; You're not forced to like RCs, maybe it'll come to you later and you can not bother until you find either something worth learning them or simply craving them. It's completely OK

Edited August 14, 2013 by DerQ

[DerQ]

I just thought about something worth mentioning. You describe RCs as being an interruption while I don't and I remember it felt that way too at the beginning. I believe it's the chunking process. Basically, there's a saying in psychology that says the human mind can hold about 7 things at the same time in memory. Kinda like RAM. The number feels ridiculously low, but that's because you normally put things into chunk to help you remember. A phone number is a good example, 10 numbers, yet don't you group them up as 555-555-5555 ? That's 3 chunks that you memorized, not 10. With that in mind, I do recall when originally learning Ragna trial combos that I had trouble at the RC part.

That's because you havn't "chunked" the combo yet, if you take notice of the earlier combo notation I posted, it's hard remembering it all or chunk it down appropriately so it can be memorized. Especially if you see the combo like this (I used to do it at first sight) :

[5B > 5C > 2D] [RC] [dash > 5C > 5D(2) > Dash > 6A > Superjump > j.D > j.D > Belial Edge]

RC is it's own chunk, making it feel very flow-breaking. The "Feel" I've gained over time for that combo goes like this

[5B > 5C > 2D > RC > dash] [5C > 5D(2) > Dash] [6A > Superjump > j.D > j.D > Belial Edge]

These chunks are way more natural once you treat them as such. Actually, most ragna (and BB) combos illustrate this well as they have large moments mid-combos where there tends to be a pause or a slow down. This is the end of a chunk. In Ragna's case, dash cancels are a good example. Another example would be:

[5B > 5C > Hell's fang (214A)] [RC > 6C > Dash] [6B > 5C > 5D(2) > Dash] [6A > Superjump > j.D > j.D > Belial Edge]

If you try and see them that way, the RC part isn't as flow breaking as it used to be at first sight. It's odd at first, but since it's all execution, you can fiddle in training until it becomes second nature (for the sequence you are practicing)

If you do want to try and feel this Nitro-like metaphor I've shown earlier, pick Sol-Badguy and go try 2D > 236K(1) > RC > slight delay > 236HS (Clean hit sidewinder for wallbounce). It's really simple but showcases way too perfectly how you make something standard way more satisfying to do.

Hope that helps

Edited August 14, 2013 by DerQ

[sagacious]

The chunking idea is a good point. I find I have two general 'chunks' for doing RCs/FRCs, which are basically first, double-tap, and second, buffer movement.

So like, for 'double-tap' inputs there's Johnny's air S specials -> FRC -> jS or jH, or Potemkin's command throw -> FRC -> 2S, Jam's normal throw -> FRC -> cl.5S. For these it's just pressing buttons quckly.

For 'buffer movement' inputs there's Sol's 2D -> 236K -> RC -> 236 (and time the H), or Baiken's 2D -> 236K -> FRC -> superjump (then jS), or Jam's 6HH -> RC -> dash (into 2H etc.). For these the stick hand does one thing while the buttons hand does another thing at the same time, and then you perform some followup after that movement.

Like, for Sol's reversal uppercut -> RC, I just input 623S~H KSH66, and then I hitconfirm into combo or into tick throw attempt etc. Much like FADC in sf4.

Incidentally I'm pretty sure Guilty Gear has a PK, PD, PKS, and PKSH macro in the button config, you just have to manually set them, and PKS will roman cancel (any three of p,k,s,h).

4. is a good point. I remember when Lofo and I were learning the game we'd ask each other to stop bursting our damn Dust combos so we could actually practice them in match.

[DerQ]

I remember when Lofo and I were learning the game we'd ask each other to stop bursting our damn Dust combos so we could actually practice them in match.

Haha that's pretty awesome. "Awwww dude COME ON!"

Guilty gear FRCs and RC are definitely something else entirely to chunk down. They'll sometimes imply you to have a short pause right before the RC/FRC point and then demand you to input plenty of things at once.

Something like I do with venom [5 close S(3) > 5 far S > 5HS > Stinger aim] [FRC > Jump instant air-dash > Air-series > mixup] The second chunk being like twice as fast as the first one making FRC > Airdash one continuous chain of inputs burned into my muscle memory for life.

[kirbster]

So yeah, all of these things are in my way of appreciating RC's and why I'm so confused that everyone else but me seems to like them.

It's because you hate all the fucking time. I don't think I've ever seen you not complain about something in a game, good lord.

The problem is not the game, it's you. Change your way of thinking, accept that a game is designed the way it is. Especially an established and acclaimed game like GG. When you start to understand how the game works and you STILL don't like it, then just don't play it at all. I understand how Marvel works and I don't like it, thus I don't play it. But I don't go ser Marvel players to tell them all the design faults their game has and how it should be.

TL;DR hate less

[DerQ]

"I don't get why *insert thing* is fun/good, please show me why *insert thing* is fun/good, I want to know why you praise it so much"

I do think attitude matters the most in boosting the speed of your learning process, but in this very case, he's not hating... in the least. Maybe complaining or voicing "It's hard guise :(", but hey he wouldn't be asking something like that just with the intention to hate in the first place, nor would he come back to foonzo every meetup, nor would he want to travel to events with us like Gore weekend or NY in two weeks if it was all to hate. In this very case, attitude/hate is not the biggest offender like I might have said at other times in the past. So please, save that advice when it's actually the core issue and let the guy try and learn for once, even if you dislike the way he responds to some things.

[oDHAOSo]

Has trouble with particular mechanics, thinks things could be better but critical acclaim means he's wrong.

Asks how to enjoy one of them more.

Gets a bunch of useful advice, insight and simple examples to try.

then

hate less

K, working on it.

[Daisy-Fan]

Anyone going to tryout the remake of DuckTales? gonna release tommorow on PSN from what i hear.

[DerQ]

It's funny actually, we had a conversation earlier today on Sankishin about how hard it was to properly "teach" stuff in terms of fighting game and how hard it was to get some things you consider important across to another player. I personally ended up saying the worst advice you could say to a player was something with no solution to apply. "Hate less" is pretty up there if you take it literally. Hate is the effect, not the cause. It'd be like saying "Suck less" to a player who isn't winning. Wtf do you expect him to work on from that to win more or follow your advice?

Identify the cause will help coming up with a solution that can actually be applied. So what causes the hate/complaining exactly? Losing? Having your shit punished? Dropping combos? The clash in how you see things compared to how other people present it to you? I don't want to go on making assumptions, but there's definitely something that causes it.

Besides personal venting for release, this complaining effect due to an currently unprecised cause can probably be debunked to show how illogical/pointless it is. It doesn't give you something to move on forward, it may even slow down that process altogether, but identify why you think he acts that way first and then point it out rather than just "Hate less". Else, you're the one doing personal venting that doesn't lead to anything concrete for the other player and no one moves on

TL:DR; Are you just angry as to how he learns or are you helping him

Edited August 14, 2013 by DerQ

[kirbster]

You are a patience god. I'll let you handle this then

[DerQ]

You are a patience god. I'll let you handle this then

I'm no Kaeru though, it's easy on a message board tho. And you can handle it as well, I'm just saying it's not too much to ask to elaborate these voiced thoughts simply because if it was so simple, you wouldn't have to voice advice in the first place

[Heartless]

Jesus, I return from the meet up and I'm welcomed with 3 pages of wall of text. lol

Anyways, had lots of fun tonight.

Need more training with my Tao, but Xillia, Record Of Argarest War Zero & 2 and GTA5 is keeping me from that.

Video games.