A.X.I.S. Posted May 19, 2011 Author Posted May 19, 2011 (edited) Plat is a terrible match up IMO and you don't want to use 6A to pull her in. (Heart car beats 6A clean.) Plat has too much shit she can do once she is in range, thankfully her normals have quite the recovery on them. I think 5A>5B has gap you can 720. IMO matchups are like this: Ragna: 4.5-5.5 Jin: 4.5-5.5 Noel: 4.5-5.5 Bang: 4-6 Hazama: 4-6 Litchi: 4-6 Arakune: 3.5-6.5 Carl: 3.5-6.5 Lambda: 4-6 Mu: 3.5-6.5 Tsubaki: 4.5-5.5 (I haven't got a chance to mess with this match up much.) Rachel: 4-6 or 4.5-6.5 Haku-men: 4.5-5.5 or 4-6 (It feels 4-6 to me.) Makoto: 4-6 Tao: 3.5-6.5 Valk: 4-6 Plat: 4-6 maybe worse Yeah we still have it bad lol. Edited May 19, 2011 by A.X.I.S.
Coopa Posted May 19, 2011 Posted May 19, 2011 I really don't see Taokaka being that bad in CS2. You'll have to enlighten me or vice versa. I'd question the Valk matchup as well, since Valk did get nerfed from CS1 to CS2, and the matchup was horrible in CS1. What makes you say it's still bad for Tager? Everything else can be understandable, since we're lacking information.
Achtzehn Posted May 19, 2011 Posted May 19, 2011 I really don't see Taokaka being that bad in CS2. You'll have to enlighten me or vice versa. I'd question the Valk matchup as well, since Valk did get nerfed from CS1 to CS2, and the matchup was horrible in CS1. What makes you say it's still bad for Tager? Everything else can be understandable, since we're lacking information. I'd say the reason is because of IB nerf plus tao's general mobility. I mean tager is hands down THE slowest character in the game in every sense. Taokaka has the BEST movement of the game, even better than hazama. If tao doesn't want you to catch her, as tager you are NEVER catching her. She completely controls the match until she makes a mistake, and without IB its gonna be very hard to catch that mistake/force a mistake. Valk i'd say the reasoning is that his godlike frame advantage on most of his normals didn't really change, so that along with IB nerf means his pressure is really fucking safe. Valk also has good mobility and also has range on his moves so its similar to tao in that it's hard to keep him where you want him while he can just do whatever the fuck he pleases.
Coopa Posted May 19, 2011 Posted May 19, 2011 Hmm, well, okay. I'm going to keep testing things out as time avails. If I come up with anything, I'll tell you guys.
FlyingVe Posted May 19, 2011 Posted May 19, 2011 @Coopa: 1) I'm not sure I agree with you on the Tao matchup. I played a few against Xdest and it seemed just as bad as CS1. It reminds me alot of the Hazama matchup, she can just touch you once and run for the whole freaking match. We even brainstormed about what I could have done to win, and "get lucky" was as good as we could come up with. 2)Also, some of you Mu info seems off. For one, her 2B was +1 in CS1 and now its +/-0 but it got even faster. Also, talking about using 5C seems sketchy because the ideal range for Mu's own 5C and jC is the same as Tagers... and hers are faster. Getting hit by either will push you full screen and back to 6D>4D>214D hell. Lastly, your right about spark, but this is a match where I can really support just using it to get Mag. Mu doesn't have silly mobility options like Tao/Haz/Kune/Rachel/etc, and no direct projectile so she has to be very cautious when mag'd, this can lead to screw ups or at least force her to play in a way that lets you get close. I think Axis's matchups are pretty accurate, I might disagree by .5 here or there, but it looks about right.
A.X.I.S. Posted May 19, 2011 Author Posted May 19, 2011 Tao yes but there is only 3 chances you have on Tao and its these three things outside of scoring a lucky hit somewhere is what makes this match winnable. 6B her overhead, backdash 360 punish it when she does it. drive cancel C, she jumps, you can IB the drive hit and backdash her next move or 360A invul through it. Its very risky and unreliable. Our AA's barely work but they do work if the die roll in your favor. Valk is easy to IB punish surprisingly, the problem stems from wolf mode and how badly it rapes us.
Coopa Posted May 19, 2011 Posted May 19, 2011 (edited) @Coopa: 1) I'm not sure I agree with you on the Tao matchup. I played a few against Xdest and it seemed just as bad as CS1. It reminds me alot of the Hazama matchup, she can just touch you once and run for the whole freaking match. We even brainstormed about what I could have done to win, and "get lucky" was as good as we could come up with. 2)Also, some of you Mu info seems off. For one, her 2B was +1 in CS1 and now its +/-0 but it got even faster. Also, talking about using 5C seems sketchy because the ideal range for Mu's own 5C and jC is the same as Tagers... and hers are faster. Getting hit by either will push you full screen and back to 6D>4D>214D hell. Lastly, your right about spark, but this is a match where I can really support just using it to get Mag. Mu doesn't have silly mobility options like Tao/Haz/Kune/Rachel/etc, and no direct projectile so she has to be very cautious when mag'd, this can lead to screw ups or at least force her to play in a way that lets you get close. I think Axis's matchups are pretty accurate, I might disagree by .5 here or there, but it looks about right. Hmm. Well, that's odd. Maybe it was Mu's 2b transition to something that was IB punishable. I know for sure I was eating Mu players up for that. I think I will test out the Taokaka matchup a bit more. If you guys are seriously saying it's that bad, then maybe the Taokaka players don't lame it up against me enough... or something. Hmm. In retrospect, I guess Mu 5c versus Tager 5c is something really odd to talk about. I find myself using it a lot when I push Mu into the corner. I'm not sure why I'm being so effective with it because Mu is still in her ideal range, it's just her backs to the corner. I'll need to review a bit of what I'm doing to see why, but maybe I'm transitioning to 5c from a block string, and then post 5c, I do something that let's me 5c again. Edited May 19, 2011 by Coopa
Achtzehn Posted May 19, 2011 Posted May 19, 2011 Hmm. Well, that's odd. Maybe it was Mu's 2b transition to something that was IB punishable. I know for sure I was eating Mu players up for that. I think I will test out the Taokaka matchup a bit more. If you guys are seriously saying it's that bad, then maybe the Taokaka players don't lame it up against me enough... or something. Hmm. In retrospect, I guess Mu 5c versus Tager 5c is something really odd to talk about. I find myself using it a lot when I push Mu into the corner. I'm not sure why I'm being so effective with it because Mu is still in her ideal range, it's just her backs to the corner. I'll need to review a bit of what I'm doing to see why, but maybe I'm transitioning to 5c from a block string, and then post 5c, I do something that let's me 5c again. To put it simply nobody really plays tao in america so most of them are ass. Xdest I'd say is definitely one of the good ones. So you generally won't have a hard time with tao since the players are bad. When you face a good one however you'll see why we say its such a bad matchup...
FlyingVe Posted May 19, 2011 Posted May 19, 2011 Also, just another fuck Tao note, Tao's average damage is better than ours (Tao gets 3-4k), so when she does hit us, we need to catch her more than once to even the score. @Coopa: I'm curios what specifically your doing. I've been told you beat up on Mu, so either the other guy is falling asleep, or your doing something different... and want to know what.
Coopa Posted May 19, 2011 Posted May 19, 2011 (edited) To put it simply nobody really plays tao in america so most of them are ass. Xdest I'd say is definitely one of the good ones. So you generally won't have a hard time with tao since the players are bad. When you face a good one however you'll see why we say its such a bad matchup... Oh, Xdest. I remember playing him online with my Platinum. We had like a 1 bar connection, so I'm not too sure what to say about him, but I play against Mystic D from Norcal often, and back when TaoFTW used to play, I played with him. I'm still pretty confused about the transition from CS1 to CS2. Maybe watching some Japanese videos will help solidify the matchup understanding. Also, just another fuck Tao note, Tao's average damage is better than ours (Tao gets 3-4k), so when she does hit us, we need to catch her more than once to even the score. @Coopa: I'm curios what specifically your doing. I've been told you beat up on Mu, so either the other guy is falling asleep, or your doing something different... and want to know what. Well, whenever I get hit, I try to be at an odd angle, so my opponent doesn't get much off of it. Against mixup characters that I jump in against, I do a lot of jumping barrier guarding to get them used to a certain anti-air timing for them, then when I get meter from IBing their stuff, I delay my fall with jump 2c, rapid, so even if it's blocked, it's safe, and I get mixup, so that's the very first thing that I do that most tagers I see don't do. Against Mu, I don't know how to explain it too well, but her steins CAN BE a double-edged sword. It can set her offense up, get her out of the corner, and even be used for defense, but there are awkward times when if you hit with Mu and trade, the steins will knock you out of extended hitstun (from Mu's stronger normals), and instead, you just get pecked by a stein, tech, and apply pressure again, so that's a small bit of what I've noticed. Also, I find Mu's mixup really weak. When I played Pulsr, I remember him telling me that he respected my defense, so he had to do some funky things to get at me. A lot of empty jump low, or which way shenanigans. I think the reason why I feel this way is I'm almost always approaching Mu, but I'm not using sledge. What ends up happening is I'm trying to get past the tip of her 5c range, so she needs to spam the normal to keep me out. If she's spamming normals to keep me out, I'm getting meter from IBing and she's not getting time to stein. If I jump in like an idiot and barrier guard all day, she needs to AA, else I just got in for free. If I get Mu in the corner, I do walking 720 setups, and if she 5c's to try to get out, she eats the 720, so I think this is the one thing I neglected to mention about my 5c pressure in the corner. Unfortunately, I'm not too sure what else to say. I'm known for my defense as a Tager, but I don't think that accounts for why I feel x, y, and z matchup aren't as bad. I'm willing to review my information though because I'm not a knowledgeable player on frame data (which determines a lot of matchups, in my opinion). I just use it to supplement a decision. Edited May 19, 2011 by Coopa
A.X.I.S. Posted May 19, 2011 Author Posted May 19, 2011 Its not as retarded as CS1 Tao, get hit by CH drive and lose 5k and possibly get reset after you tech, couple that with the fact that 6B beats wake up 720 and 5B beating rolls and you make that match up into one of 1 of the 9 levels of hell. XDest is the only good Tao I fought, everyone else just gets bodied. Mu...I am not gonna talk about the many ways you are gonna get pissed doing that match up.
FlyingVe Posted May 19, 2011 Posted May 19, 2011 Also, we japanese Mu's lose to Tager alot, I've never been able to figure out why. That's a mystery I would very much like solved. Xdest said that Tao didn't really change much from CS1 to CS2. It looks like she can employ about the same tactics, her average damage is the same as CS1 (her max is lower). All they did was take the stupid away. Remember CA into 3k, no more of that.
Coopa Posted May 19, 2011 Posted May 19, 2011 (edited) Oh, Flying Ve. I answered your questions in the previous post I made. Had to edit it. Also, you're Japanese? Edit: AXIS, do you have MSN or AIM? I'd like to talk to you, since you're pretty knowledgeable about how to punish or respond to an opponent's attack. I just block. Edited May 19, 2011 by Coopa
FlyingVe Posted May 19, 2011 Posted May 19, 2011 Oh, Flying Ve. I answered your questions in the previous post I made. Had to edit it. Also, you're Japanese? No, I'm a regular old white guy who doesn't live near anybody... AXIS and I were talking about it a while back. Mu kill Tager in CS1 (or so we think), and Mu got mad buffs in CS2, so it should be worse, but for some reason, you see way more videos of jap Tager winning against jap Mu. I've never been able to figure it out. I wanna scream "play lamer" but I acknowledge that most of them know more than me, so I'm just puzzled by the phenomenon. Thanks for the answer, that was very helpful and will try using that sort of conditioning see what luck I have. I'm still convinced that Mu can basically lame out Tager though. My main AA with Mu is just to run under Tager, his jB won't hit Mu if you time it right.
Nini Heart Posted May 19, 2011 Posted May 19, 2011 Arakune doesn't seem that bad of a matchup , just block real well...would say 6.5-3.5 in ara's favor... Tager players are so used to bad matchups that 6.5-3.5 isn't "that bad". That's some serious dedication.
Darlos9D Posted May 19, 2011 Posted May 19, 2011 Tager players are so used to bad matchups that 6.5-3.5 isn't "that bad". That's some serious dedication. Yep, that sounds about right.
A.X.I.S. Posted May 19, 2011 Author Posted May 19, 2011 Oh, Flying Ve. I answered your questions in the previous post I made. Had to edit it. Also, you're Japanese? Edit: AXIS, do you have MSN or AIM? I'd like to talk to you, since you're pretty knowledgeable about how to punish or respond to an opponent's attack. I just block. I have aim but I rarely log on to it ever, I also go to IRC. The one I am in most the time is Onehitcombo but I swing by the efnet IRC with SJ and the other guys on a rare occasion. Not too big on IM's.
darkarchonisme Posted May 19, 2011 Posted May 19, 2011 So, what are some of the main things to learn for CS2 Tager? I've mained him since ct, and got fairly proficient in bbcs. I call proficient being able to beat some lambda and hazama online, I don't sledge as a command dash, and i try for tick throw setups / resets, while usually being to do FC combos. most of the time. I know I need to work on my hit-confirm skills, as I tend to autopilot things. like 2c - 3c, when they got hit by the 2c. sadface. what would you guys say is a good Tager player? that standard of competence you should try for? I'm always trying to get better, but I'm still adjusting to the bbcs2 changes. it probably doesnt help that I'm trying to get better at mvc3 as well, lol. alternating playing them in one sitting cna be a bit of a mindfuck sometimes. it leads to things like trying to be rushdown tager.
A.X.I.S. Posted May 19, 2011 Author Posted May 19, 2011 Hmm depends on what you're going for. I say a good Tager player is someone who can make the right reads, know how to swing momentum in their favor, and can block overheads and tech grabs on reaction. This is pretty much all you need to know with Tager.
Coopa Posted May 19, 2011 Posted May 19, 2011 Hmm depends on what you're going for. I say a good Tager player is someone who can make the right reads, know how to swing momentum in their favor, and can block overheads and tech grabs on reaction. This is pretty much all you need to know with Tager. Swinging momentum in your favor though can be hard. You will probably need some advanced grappler techniques and that does take some time to learn. Patience can also take awhile, since certain matches demand this. I think icing has been reduced in terms of importance, butnit helps to turn the momentum like you said. Edit.. I am at an apple store. Posting on an iPad that isn't mine lol
Darlos9D Posted May 19, 2011 Posted May 19, 2011 In that case I assume by icing you mean "IBing." Thanks autocorrect.
Osuna Posted May 19, 2011 Posted May 19, 2011 Plat is a terrible match up IMO and you don't want to use 6A to pull her in. (Heart car beats 6A clean.) Plat has too much shit she can do once she is in range, thankfully her normals have quite the recovery on them. I think 5A>5B has gap you can 720. IMO matchups are like this: Ragna: 4.5-5.5 Jin: 4.5-5.5 Noel: 4.5-5.5 Bang: 4-6 Hazama: 4-6 Litchi: 4-6 Arakune: 3.5-6.5 Carl: 3.5-6.5 Lambda: 4-6 Mu: 3.5-6.5 Tsubaki: 4.5-5.5 (I haven't got a chance to mess with this match up much.) Rachel: 4-6 or 4.5-6.5 Haku-men: 4.5-5.5 or 4-6 (It feels 4-6 to me.) Makoto: 4-6 Tao: 3.5-6.5 Valk: 4-6 Plat: 4-6 maybe worse Yeah we still have it bad lol.I came up with a similar list the other day. Everyone who can't fight outside of magnetised 360A range: Bad Everyone who Can fight outside of magnetised 360A range: Worse People good at a fighting outside of magnetised 360A range: Worst. I was just bitter on how hard it was to apply any pressure on someone outside a certain range. In case you couldn't tell.
FlyingVe Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 Personally, I think we at least got a decent number of matchups that are about even. Edit: ...
A.X.I.S. Posted May 20, 2011 Author Posted May 20, 2011 I think your list is more accurate then mine.
Darlos9D Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 Wow... was there ever a time when we had one or two good matchups? I guess I should never feel too bad about losing.
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