FlyingVe Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 I guess she is significantly higher, but I felt an S+ was a bit disingenuous, same reason I didn't split up the C tier into C and C-.
A.X.I.S. Posted July 17, 2011 Author Posted July 17, 2011 I guess she is significantly higher, but I felt an S+ was a bit disingenuous, same reason I didn't split up the C tier into C and C-. I feel she is better than everyone for all the wrong reasons. But none unfair.
FlyingVe Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 I feel she is better than everyone for all the wrong reasons. But none unfair. No question she's the best, I just don't think she's better than Tao or Hazama by enough to get her own tier. I think making her the sole S tier suggest a power level she doesn't quite posses (damn close though). Personal list (for what it's worth): S:Makoto, Hazama, Tao A: Jin, Carl, Valk, Mu, Litchi A-:Noel B: Rachel, Lambda, Ragna, Arakune C: Hakumen, Tsubaki, Platinum, Bang T: Tager I know I keep putting Noel in a half tier, it just seems very appropriate as she doesn't compare well to those above or below.
A.X.I.S. Posted July 17, 2011 Author Posted July 17, 2011 I don't know man, if you get hit by Makoto you die. You get hit by Hazama you will get mad and lose because well...fuck Hazama. Tao is no where near as bad as those two, just really annoying.
Osmond Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 I feel she is better than everyone for all the wrong reasons. But none unfair. You can't really complain about her validly, she is just an effective character by design do you think it'd be possible to balance her without CS1 Rachelling her? I mean, she can reliably wreck pretty much every character, even the ones she is supposed to be disadvantaged against also, Arakune is only B?
FlyingVe Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Makoto hits you you die. You can't hit Hazama or Tao. Not to mention the damage output on those two isn't exactly shabby.
A.X.I.S. Posted July 17, 2011 Author Posted July 17, 2011 Makoto hits you you die. You can't hit Hazama or Tao. Not to mention the damage output on those two isn't exactly shabby. The problem with Makoto is that she like Ragna is easy to block. But its hard to hit her without risk. This is not just Tager. It just feels like you hitting her will be crap but her hitting you will make you feel so bad. Hitting Hazama is far easier than Tao but Hazama doesn't die in 3 combos...Tao will. Doesn't help that Tao doesn't churn out 5K from drives anymore. (From what I have seen.) Her run away game is still pretty good. Also another thing about Haz...stupid stupid damage with meter...why?
FlyingVe Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 It sounds like we agree for the most part, I just don't think Makoto is enough better to get her own tier. Also, even meter-less Hazama can do some pretty disgusting damage, and Tao getting 4K+ isn't exactly uncommon with that new D-loop and her other crap. Yeah, Makoto is easy to block as long as you commit yourself to doing nothing but blocking and never trying to get out...
Manta Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 Yeah, and curse her for having a reversal that leads to such good damage. At least Ragna's doesn't do much unless he's in the corner. And Mu's is little different than a green burst.
Isorropia Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 Makoto's dp only leads to damage from a close range counterhit, and it's a risky proposition anyway since her dp has such a terrible hitbox (whiffs vs meaty 2Bs from people who aren't tager). So I still feel like Ragna's dp is more threatening. Oh also (on her wakeup) tager can safe-jab makoto's dp. (Last active frame of 5A + recovery frames is < dp startup frames). That's always fun. I actually picked up makoto as a sub for matches that I find too difficult as tager. She's fun. Just wish tager's pressure could be as solid as hers. >.>
CrazyI-nomitsu Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 I actually played a solid makoto last night. I couldn't block>360 none of he stings. I actually had to use her old friend IB to even have a chance to get one off. I also able to block>720 out of her stings.
Manta Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Yeah, a lot of the time you just just have to wait it out, make her think you're respecting her and then blow her up when she starts taking chances. I find 2C to work well against that asteroid vision nonsense.
CrazyI-nomitsu Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Ahh...Anyways, I notice something cool when I was watching one of my friends videos. And the Tager in the video did a double GF. Can anyone explain how you can pick up someone twice after picking them up one time with GF.
A.X.I.S. Posted July 21, 2011 Author Posted July 21, 2011 Ahh...Anyways, I notice something cool when I was watching one of my friends videos. And the Tager in the video did a double GF. Can anyone explain how you can pick up someone twice after picking them up one time with GF. Simple, after the first GF they are considered OTG so you can do it again to jump outs and some backdashes. For example if you gadget Arakune you can gadget finger him again if he tries to backdash, the pull would actually make him reappear in front of you and then you can punish with 360B. Fun observation and a bit upsetting. Because of the magnetism nerf we do not have the kara throw anymore. It went: 5D>B+C. (you piano the input kinda.) 5D's start up gave us a little pull when doing the throw making it into a fun yet damn near useless kara. Just want to share this irreverent piece of info. If you wanna see it in action then switch back to CT/CS1 and try it.
Brice Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 I am so sad right now... yesterday I thought of an awesome gimmick that could work and I tried it out today to see that I have been lied to no extent... (or I'm just stupid which is probably the case anyway) can someone explain to me why is it that when you cancel a normal into voltic charge you can't cancel the voltic into 720... thinking about it while writing this, it would be way too good for tager...
A.X.I.S. Posted July 21, 2011 Author Posted July 21, 2011 You actually can...just really hard. I did it a few times.
Osmond Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 That might be a useful tool against them if you can learn to nail the timing
Osuna Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 I want to clarify on the doube gadget and the VC 720 point. The gadget needs to start while they are still recovering from the first gadget so the game thinks they are still being comboed. So you're better off buffering it as a reversal. The 720 has only a stupid short window of something like 11 frames into voltech charge (before there is even auto guard) so it is wise to have as much of the motion done by the time you start the charge. I usually hit the button at around 412369D874123698Cish
Brice Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 excuse me if I wasn't clear enough in my explanations I am able to do voltic > 720 it's easy ish what I wanna do is 6A > voltic cancel 720 and it doesn't work try it with any special cancealable normals and tell me you can make it work :P
Osuna Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) excuse me if I wasn't clear enough in my explanations I am able to do voltic > 720 it's easy ish what I wanna do is 6A > voltic cancel 720 and it doesn't work try it with any special cancealable normals and tell me you can make it work :PI can't test right now, but there was a pretty popular clip of some tager demonstrating 5A VC 720. Edit: Also why are you trying that? 6A isn't jump cancelable, just buffer the 720 and super cancel it late. Edited July 21, 2011 by Osuna
OrionXElite Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) If I recall correctly, Voltic>720 cancel is only possible if you cancel Tager's Jump startup into Voltic. The Voltic Charge needs to register as off of an "empty" input in order to allow the 720 Cancel. So by jumping, it gets rid of the input beforehand and registers it as "empty." Cause I can cancel 5A and 2A into Voltic 720 ONLY if I wait a slight amount of time to allow for Jump Startup to occur and then I cancel that into Voltic. Its also why you can't do something like 5B>Voltic 720 because theres no jump. I further confirmed this by testing 6C which is jump cancelable on hit. So I hit them with 6C I buffer the first 360, hit D just before he jumps, finish it and hit C and it comes out as Voltic 720 but I CANNOT do that if they block it because there is no jump. Its an odd mechanic but it pretty much serves its purpose as for being used empty or off of say a 5A or 2A tick. EDIT: You can't 720 Cancel ANY of Tager's normals. So you'd wanna go 6A>late 360 for a tick off of that. Edited July 21, 2011 by OrionXElite
Osuna Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 This has some interesting implications for a lot of ticks. Also lol, the 6A changes took away the ability to 720 tick, take that everyone who thought it they were gaining the tick instead.
Manta Posted July 22, 2011 Posted July 22, 2011 Personally I think that, unless it finishes the round, 360B is a better move to hit someone with than 720. Yes it's less damage, but keeping that 50 heat for a time when you really need a reversal is quite important, plus the fact 720 resets the game to neutral in a way that either 360 doesn't need to. In the case of the 6A tick, I'm not too upset about not being able to 720 it. MTW is still there too, catches reversals much more comically.
FlyingVe Posted July 22, 2011 Posted July 22, 2011 If you can handle micro-walk, it's not even that much less damage. 720 is a burst safe punish, and a reversal, 360B is your tick... most times. There are exceptions obviously. IMO, 720's risk reward is too fucked up for me to consider in most situations where it isn't guaranteed (reversal, punish), I don't like to just "try" a 720.
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