CrazyI-nomitsu Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Same with Osmond. You give us confidence. You don't understand how much confidence you give us. Aside from knowing character specific, match ups, tech traps, and etc. You always got to have confidence with any character you play. That's an important piece.
Osuna Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Dacid, I know you feel good about Tager, and he turned he's certainly not CT Tager, even if he didn't get any of the things you and I were hoping for last time we talked. But! people are allowed to be upset even if you aren't. True that ASW has been lovely about being supportive of the competitive scene, but gimping Tager in competitive play to favor casual players is what we all seem to agree happened and people can condemn the action without making it into a typical one. He received other nerfs that negatively impacted his match ups that people could rightfully be upset about in the context that it is part of the reason he's in his own tier. The general consensus is that it is intentional too, to make things easier for newer players. The part that personally pisses me off is that they didn't even do a very good job of that. They just made it so Tager Only pisses off people who aren't deep into the game yet, which further drives me crazy because a lot of Tager players become satisfied with that and end up crappy/hyper gimmicky players. I still play Tager sincerely even though I don't have a local scene or very much time to play anymore. Complaining hasn't impeded me, and if it does impede someone that's their business and their choice. It isn't even a particularly bad choice to make if you think about it. Getting upset at people for being upset is also a good way to die young. Actually I don't like that hyperbole. Some of us aren't born healthy.
FlyingVe Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Emperor Palpatine on 'anger': "You want this, don't you? The hate is swelling in you now... Use it... Strike me down with it. Give in to your anger... It gives you focus, makes you stronger."
Osmond Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 This is why I think they are looking at this character the wrong way, they don't want another super grappler to scary away the amateur or causal players right? But they are the only players he can ever be consistently a threat to. Tager can be terrifying to the beginner, a friend of mine started out playing the PSP CSII and actually found Tager a threat and was nervous at the idea of playing against even though I'm just mediocre. Seems kind of redundant that they go through all the trouble to debilitate him but still miss the mark.
FlyingVe Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Grapplers piss off beginners by design, not because they are or aren't competent at grappling.
Osuna Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) I have to concede that some of it is just the way grapplers work. They aren't very intuitive to fight against, but some of the changes they made make me wonder. Like buffing 360B, which despite being lots of fun for me is a bigger problem for new players than older ones. The 6A changes are unintuitive too, and certainly end up causing a lot more trouble for people getting into the game that for others. I'm kinda curious about the logic behind it. EDIT:For context's sake this post was started before Ve's. Also since I'm editing I shall add an example. My Zangief will occasionally give Street fighter players trouble. I have No idea how to play that game. Edited July 7, 2011 by Osuna
FlyingVe Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) Well Zagnief is really good. You have to footsie against grapplers in SF, and Zangief just happens to be a footsie god. Also, the 6A change was a nerf over all in my opinion. As bad as Jump Canceling the old 6A could be, it was the closest thing we had to being able to reset pressure. Edit: Also, Zangiefs oki can make even the best of players look like a scrub. Edited July 7, 2011 by FlyingVe
Dacidbro Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Dacid, I know you feel good about Tager, and he turned he's certainly not CT Tager, even if he didn't get any of the things you and I were hoping for last time we talked. But! people are allowed to be upset even if you aren't. True that ASW has been lovely about being supportive of the competitive scene, but gimping Tager in competitive play to favor casual players is what we all seem to agree happened and people can condemn the action without making it into a typical one. He received other nerfs that negatively impacted his match ups that people could rightfully be upset about in the context that it is part of the reason he's in his own tier. The general consensus is that it is intentional too, to make things easier for newer players. The part that personally pisses me off is that they didn't even do a very good job of that. They just made it so Tager Only pisses off people who aren't deep into the game yet, which further drives me crazy because a lot of Tager players become satisfied with that and end up crappy/hyper gimmicky players. I still play Tager sincerely even though I don't have a local scene or very much time to play anymore. Complaining hasn't impeded me, and if it does impede someone that's their business and their choice. It isn't even a particularly bad choice to make if you think about it. Getting upset at people for being upset is also a good way to die young. Actually I don't like that hyperbole. Some of us aren't born healthy. I guess. I would say that complaining constantly for years can certainly hinder progress. I know that the mentalities described on dustloop severely hindered Northern California Tager progress, as the tager players generally replaced getting good enough to beat bad top tier players with complaining about how bad top tier players are unbeatable with bad low tier play.. kind of a vicious cycle that was only broken in CS2 where the tiers did not in fact mandate who won our local tournaments, and suddenly everyone wanted to improve. Beyond that, complaining constantly makes a place unbearably negative, and leads to sad depressed mentalities. Personally I see reasons to avoid that, but I guess I can't be the only one that's always happy (And not artificially so, either, there's a large difference there). o_o
Osuna Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Well Zagnief is really good. You have to footsie against grapplers in SF, and Zangief just happens to be a footsie god. Also, the 6A change was a nerf over all in my opinion. As bad as Jump Canceling the old 6A could be, it was the closest thing we had to being able to reset pressure.I never said otherwise. The damage nerf is pretty frustrating on top of it all, but I'm grateful for the increased combo potential on standing opponents. By not knowing how to play that game at all I mean, I didn't know what his good normals were. Or what they look like. or what anyone else's look like. I didn't know any match up infomation, I also didn't know any of his AE changes.
FlyingVe Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Zangief AE changes: -EX green Hand no longer knocks down but is +1 on hit +Light SPD has fullscreen range.
Osmond Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 It's not all angst and pessimism , we really do have fun with him and help him along but they aren't going at it in the right, only making it worse of the beginners. If they gave him more options, more complex type of things like... the GF > RC > AC mix up but without such a heavy cost that would make him more viable to the advanced players on a competitive level.
Osuna Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 I guess. I would say that complaining constantly for years can certainly hinder progress. I know that the mentalities described on dustloop severely hindered Northern California Tager progress, as the tager players generally replaced getting good enough to beat bad top tier players with complaining about how bad top tier players are unbeatable with bad low tier play.. kind of a vicious cycle that was only broken in CS2 where the tiers did not in fact mandate who won our local tournaments, and suddenly everyone wanted to improve. Beyond that, complaining constantly makes a place unbearably negative, and leads to sad depressed mentalities. Personally I see reasons to avoid that, but I guess I can't be the only one that's always happy (And not artificially so, either, there's a large difference there). o_oI personally think that if someone doesn't want to get good with tager that it is his business. I don't feel responsible if by not liking something someone else decides they aren't cut out for high level blazblue. I also don't think you can attribute him being hindered to someone else being negative. It's a personal decision, even if it would improve the rate of people getting serious I don't think censoring the way people actually feel is the way to go. If the person would decide not to get serious on the condition that the general consensus is that he wouldn't do well even if he did get serious, then lying to him and pretend no one thinks that is deceiving him to get what you want. I most certainly would disagree with his criteria, but I won't lie to him to make him get serious. And I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't care if anyone is being negative as long as they are being honest. As long as someone is being honest I can learn from them, talk with them and disagree with them if that's the case. I think it bothers you more than anyone else, so unless someone wants to correct me, I'd appreciate if you just let people who feel negative express themselves. I know you don't like it, but I don't think it is anyone's business but theirs. Of course disagree as much as you like with their reasons, but you can't argue over what they feel.
Astaroth136 Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Re: Osuna talking about being able to win in SSF4 with Zangief. Ha! I'm the same way. I played AE for the first time (and a long time since I touched SSF4) a week or so ago, and I was winning/coming close to winning with T. Hawk in every match.
FlyingVe Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Re: Osuna talking about being able to win in SSF4 with Zangief. Ha! I'm the same way. I played AE for the first time (and a long time since I touched SSF4) a week or so ago, and I was winning/coming close to winning with T. Hawk in every match. Speaking of which, if any of you want to body my Yang with Zang/THawk in SF4 hit me up. I'm free as fuck in that matchup right now. Message me on XBL, as my DL is kinda messed up atm.
Osmond Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 I wouldn't make a good opponent as Zang, I've more of a Makoto main since Super...the real Makoto not the one of furry hooker type. unless you literally just want someone to wall just for you
Dacidbro Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 I personally think that if someone doesn't want to get good with tager that it is his business. I don't feel responsible if by not liking something someone else decides they aren't cut out for high level blazblue. I also don't think you can attribute him being hindered to someone else being negative. It's a personal decision, even if it would improve the rate of people getting serious I don't think censoring the way people actually feel is the way to go. If the person would decide not to get serious on the condition that the general consensus is that he wouldn't do well even if he did get serious, then lying to him and pretend no one thinks that is deceiving him to get what you want. I most certainly would disagree with his criteria, but I won't lie to him to make him get serious. And I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't care if anyone is being negative as long as they are being honest. As long as someone is being honest I can learn from them, talk with them and disagree with them if that's the case. I think it bothers you more than anyone else, so unless someone wants to correct me, I'd appreciate if you just let people who feel negative express themselves. I know you don't like it, but I don't think it is anyone's business but theirs. Of course disagree as much as you like with their reasons, but you can't argue over what they feel. But it wasn't people not wanting to get good, it was people not understanding they COULD. They already thought they were capped out, and that there was no way they could improve, because of the mindset. It's not deception either, it's just that they were playing badly and could have been playing better, but wouldn't improve because they thought they couldn't. If I let people who feel negative express themselves, more people become negative as a result. I don't understand "letting people be negative" when negativity just makes things less enjoyable or causes arguments, etc., and rarely has any benefit at all. There's honesty about things that could be better, but that's different from negativity. In general, this board hyperbolates the negative and focuses on it and breeds on it, and then every other Tager player who wants to learn comes here and learns to be negative as a result, when the reality is it's just not as bad as this board believes (Examples of false negative information, every matchup is disadvantaged, Tager's normals suck, Tager has no good anti air, Tager can't win, etc)
mAc Chaos Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Are we talking about good players here? Usually beginners don't understand the game well enough to realize how much more they can develop their skills.
FlyingVe Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 I wouldn't make a good opponent as Zang, I've more of a Makoto main since Super...the real Makoto not the one of furry hooker type. unless you literally just want someone to wall just for you Actually, Makoto is another matchup I don't really know, and now that she isn't ballz I need to. Also, People can say what they want, it's up to the individual to understand, disregard, or get salty. If a person quit BB because they thought they couldn't win with Tager, that's kinda their own problem. Most people just learn a sub or new main, or man up and make Tager work. You can't blame Osuna (or whoever) dissing Tager for people quitting BB, that's just not fair. Lastly, Prior to CS2, Tager could not win a tournament with decent players (assuming they didn't all play Noel), period. That's not exaggerating. In CS2 he's simply bad and not awful.
mAc Chaos Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Actually, when I talked to Mike Z at ECT he was of the opinion that Tager is worse now than he's ever been. He thinks he was best during CT. I think there is something to that. He did a lot more damage then, even though he was a worse character overall.
FlyingVe Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) Yeah, Tager is worse, but in the context of the game (the other characters), he's better off. If you dropped CT Tager into CS2 he would be better than CS2 Tager is. But taking characters out of their game isn't really fair. Edit: personally, I think CS1 Tager was he best iteration so far. Edited July 7, 2011 by FlyingVe
Osuna Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) If a person is convinced they can't be good, you can disagree and argue with them. If they irrationally think they wouldn't get anywhere even if they tried no matter what anyone says then that's on them. People have bad feelings, that's just a fact. Telling people to not be negative is telling them to not express those feelings and ideas. You can't just tell someone to be happy, so you just have to deal with it when people aren't happy. I don't know how you can expect to make people be happy. It isn't a choice, it's a combination of beliefs (both rational and irrational) processing external stimuli. The only way you can stop that is to harass them into silence not sharing what they think, which is just mean. Being negative doesn't do much, that's because it isn't really content. It is a trait of something said. The feeling it gives can do bad things, but so can optimism and any other attitude if you aren't going to look very deeply into the real content. It's like you're complaining that complaining makes unreasonable people do unreasonable things. Edited July 7, 2011 by Osuna
FlyingVe Posted July 7, 2011 Posted July 7, 2011 Osuna just went all debate team on yo ass' I will continue to cuss and sputter about wildly.
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