FlyingVe Posted August 12, 2011 Posted August 12, 2011 At this point it's really just a difference of opinion. I view system mechanics as something that is standard regardless of character. I think that a character specific system mechanic isn't really a system mechanic at all. Also, the amount of times where this problem comes up isn't really very great, most (all) burst safe setups and tactics work on everyone, not just Tager. Lastly, it's not that I don't understand your point, I just think you're wrong.
toanenadiz Posted August 12, 2011 Posted August 12, 2011 When I mention "matchups he doesn't even get to play", I broadly refer to v-13 in BBCT, and Hazama in BBCS1 and 2. Those are cases where even when you study the match and try creative solutions, chances are you still barely get a chance to fight your opponent. I would like to see what ASW plans to do about such 'design-level' concerns for Tager; there's a difference between "the heavy grappler gets zoned out by the projectile character, it's a bad matchup by design" and "the grappler doesn't even get to play." It isn't always possible to rectify such design conflicts. An example would be Sagat vs Zangief from SF. That match-up has always been bad for Zangief by design. Zangief literally spends half of the match trying to get close and usually only can get one mix-up chance before he gets forced across the screen, at which point he usually has lost the match. It isn't limited to just grapplers. Borrowing from SF again, Guile has always been a horrible match-up for Bison. Guile's moveset just shuts downs Bison's options hard. There isn't much you can do about such match-ups without destroying the balance between the characters in question and the rest of the roster. That's what I have trouble understanding: why not? Are you breeding system mechanics and trying to get a pureblood system mechanic? It's a system mechanic that does X action to serve X function. But because of Y variable in one of the characters (Tager's big size), X action to serve X function is not sufficient, you get Z function (just Tager flailing his arms). So, X action needs to be made to Y action to serve X function. Everybody else has X function, so why can't Tager? It's reaaaally simple, all this posting is completely unnecessary. It seriously would have been helpful to your argument if you could prove that this was a serious enough problem to warrant a Tager specific change to the system mechanics. The implications of your idea leads to other questions? For example, does Tager's gold burst also get the size increase? It would be weird if his green burst and gold burst where difference sizes.
WolfCrimson Posted August 12, 2011 Posted August 12, 2011 At this point it's really just a difference of opinion. I view system mechanics as something that is standard regardless of character. I think that a character specific system mechanic isn't really a system mechanic at all. Also, the amount of times where this problem comes up isn't really very great, most (all) burst safe setups and tactics work on everyone, not just Tager. Lastly, it's not that I don't understand your point, I just think you're wrong. Ah ok. Well, difference of opinion it is, then.
Osmond Posted August 12, 2011 Posted August 12, 2011 Well... I am glad this conversation took a more positive route, but to remind the people join in. Tager has been designed to be harder to use for two reasons, the first being they have had a bad habit of making their grapplers TOO good and that was apparently scaring off the beginners to their other games. The other being the game was balanced so that the harder to use characters like Carl and Litchi would be more rewarding for the work it goes into playing them. Consider how rudimentary Tager's combos are and how strong is throws are. By their reasoning it would make sense to make him lower, however that does not excuse him for being so weak in the intermediate and advanced levels of play. What they made is a character who is only intimidating to careless or beginners, it seems redundant to me. But. Some system mechanics are character specific, regarding movement in any case. So his apparently weight prevents him from double jumping and dashing yet doesn't stop people from air juggling him and tossing him around? Selective gravity is interesting~ What I am getting at is his things like movement restrictions are arbitrary changes to keep him from being better. I am sure you guys all know how notorious Pot's dash > buster is.
WolfCrimson Posted August 12, 2011 Posted August 12, 2011 (edited) It seriously would have been helpful to your argument if you could prove that this was a serious enough problem to warrant a Tager specific change to the system mechanics. The implications of your idea leads to other questions? For example, does Tager's gold burst also get the size increase? It would be weird if his green burst and gold burst where difference sizes. I can't sift through all the videos I've watched looking for where this problem occurred, that's too much work. Maybe in the future if I see it again, I can re-post that part here. If it makes sense to you that this problem can occur (i.e. logically this can occur, since all the reasoning behind it is sound), and if posting evidence of that occurring convinces you that this occurs, then I'll do it. But that's all I can do. If you see any matches with Tager where this occurs yourself, then would you be so kind as to PM the link of that vid? As to gold bursts, it would need an increased size as well. Edited August 12, 2011 by WolfCrimson
the_difinitive Posted August 12, 2011 Posted August 12, 2011 I think the burst should definitely not get changed, quite specifically because he's bigger than everyone. One of the "things" about tager is he's big, he's supposed to have trouble in situations where other characters don't due to his size. that's one of the things about tager. I think that this problem you are describing regarding bursts should be left in because it's a property of tager's being fat. it's the cause of one of tager's trademark weaknesses and thus it makes sense that it should happen. tager being big isn't just a problem for having character specific combos or instant overheads, it's a problem EVERYWHERE and it should stay that way imo. If you were going to change something as universal as bursts then maybe a system where burst speed is related to weight could work. So heavier characters burst faster and recover from burst faster etc etc i dunno, i'm not good enough at the game to even begin thinking about making balance suggestions.
Osuna Posted August 12, 2011 Posted August 12, 2011 (edited) It's a system change its gonna probably stick. It makes some sort of sense, it adds a bigger come back factor with burst. Its a nice trade off on green bursts too. You lose half your primers but get back 1/4 of your heat. Why burst at those points? It just doesn't seem like a good idea if they are not close enough to get hit by the burst. Edit: its confirmed! 5B has a level increase. That means we have a different route after colliderx2 I guess. colliderx2>5B>5C>6A>collider. more heat gain!?<3 I won't be surprised if we lose enders doing this though.5B currently provides less than half of the heat 22D or 236B does. Unless either or both of their heat gains are significantly changed is a net loss in damage And heat to lose an ender for more 5B's. Just 623Cx2 5B 5C 6A 623C is brings the techable proration down to about 24%ish I think. Whiich I'm pretty sure is high enough to work off a naked collider and 5C/2C collider with the current proration numbers. But the combo you listed is less heat than J.d whiff which is also does more damage and ends up with the ender off far more situations. I understand the desire for higher heat gain, but can you not exaggerate some implications? It kinda breaks my heart to explain to people over and over later that buffs don't do what they thought. I've had to do this a Lot with exaggerated values for GF, 6A armor, and 720 cancel. Also who knows what else I can't remember offhand. EDIT: I've actually seen people say fuck tager or fuck this game when they finally find out that their buff wasn't what they were told it was, so I would very much appreciate no one inventing buffs from what we hear. Edited August 12, 2011 by Osuna
A.X.I.S. Posted August 12, 2011 Author Posted August 12, 2011 I was saying it in the form of a question since I didn't know how to add up those values. It's still a nice bit to know though thanks.
TagerTime Posted August 12, 2011 Posted August 12, 2011 (edited) I have a question, would this combo work non mag without fatal counter if we currently had 5B>5C? non mag 5C>6A>2C>AC>j.C>j.2C>5B>5C>6A>2C>AC>B/Egadget ? or 5C>6A>2C>AC>j.C>j.2C>5B>5C>6A>2C>AC>Spark>MTW>TB>Gadget or would we have to use RC 5C>6A>2C>AC>RC>sj>j.2C>5B>5C>6A>2C>AC>B/Egadget ? im guessing it would do more damage than this current RC combo 5C > 6A > 2C > AC > RC > sj > j.2C > 2B > 2C > AC > B/E-Gadget 3800 here is another Tager buff if their translation is correct Edited August 12, 2011 by TagerTime
Osuna Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 (edited) According to my math the first one would Barely get gadget, and otherwise work fine IF you dropped the last 2C. Aside from being really hard to land because of distance issues, the 2C makes BGadget impossible, so it's really not worth it. The rest might be just a little character specific, but I think not having to rapid is worth dropping the 2C. Also that 'current RC combo' looks like a pretty awful waste of meter in any match up you can do a meterless double collider, so the hypothetical combo might not work without a rapid on the same characters simply because they often have goofy air hitboxes. As for damage it should do Very slightly more damage and about 3 more heat. Again all values assume no proration or heat gain changes. EDIT: Actually the more I think about it, the less I'm sure it would do more damage, but not to the point where I'm confident it does less. The important bit is it is very similar damage and 3 more meter. Edited August 13, 2011 by Osuna
A.X.I.S. Posted August 13, 2011 Author Posted August 13, 2011 Thats the note about 5B being near neutral on block. It pretty much means 5B has a level increase. Level increase means +2 hit/block stun I believe.
Osuna Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 Thats the note about 5B being near neutral on block. It pretty much means 5B has a level increase. Level increase means +2 hit/block stun I believe.If it's just a straight up level increase then the earlier supposed 5C buff is not necessary or likely.
FlyingVe Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 You'd need a speed increase for 5B>5C to work on standing and not just airborne. My math could be wrong, your much better at frame math than I.
Osuna Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 You'd need a speed increase for 5B>5C to work on standing and not just airborne. My math could be wrong, your much better at frame math than I.Not really much math to it. I just looked up the level 3 hitstun and it was 16 standing.
FlyingVe Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 Oh shit, I was not paying much attention and was reading hitstop (13) and not hitstun (16). I'm dumb, ignore all my 5C is faster statements.
A.X.I.S. Posted August 13, 2011 Author Posted August 13, 2011 It's ok lets see the second loctest. Then we can flip our shit.
TagerTime Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 (edited) According to my math the first one would Barely get gadget, and otherwise work fine IF you dropped the last 2C. Aside from being really hard to land because of distance issues, the 2C makes BGadget impossible, so it's really not worth it. The rest might be just a little character specific, but I think not having to rapid is worth dropping the 2C. Also that 'current RC combo' looks like a pretty awful waste of meter in any match up you can do a meterless double collider, so the hypothetical combo might not work without a rapid on the same characters simply because they often have goofy air hitboxes. As for damage it should do Very slightly more damage and about 3 more heat. Again all values assume no proration or heat gain changes. EDIT: Actually the more I think about it, the less I'm sure it would do more damage, but not to the point where I'm confident it does less. The important bit is it is very similar damage and 3 more meter. Ok so your saying that these combos would probably work without fatal or rapid for somewhere around 3.8k damage or more? if so then thats great. This combo will work fine no matter what 5C>6A>2C>AC>j.C>j.2C>5B>5C>6A>AC>B/Egadget ~ 3,800dmg this combo probably works 5C>6A>2C>AC>j.C>j.2C>5B>5C>6A>2C>AC>Elbow Gadget for ~ 3,800dmg even if the above combo cant get gadget this would still work 5C>6A>2C>AC>j.C>j.2C>5B>5C>6A>2C>AC>Spark>MTW>TB> Gadget This would raise our regular Non Mag combo damage to all chars significantly compared to now. Edited August 13, 2011 by TagerTime
Osuna Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 this combo probably works 5C>6A>2C>AC>j.C>j.2C>5B>5C>6A>2C>AC>Elbow Gadget for ~ 3,800dmg even if the above combo cant get gadget this would still work 5C>6A>2C>AC>j.C>j.2C>5B>5C>6A>2C>AC>Spark>MTW>TB> Gadget This would raise our regular Non Mag combo damage to all chars significantly compared to now.I'm really confident that the second collider would whiff because the 2C would push them too high, I'm also not very confident that Elbow would work since Bsledge is faster (though I do remember Someone saying something about weird situations where elbow works and bsledge doesn't? Does J.C reduce air time?) I just know that unless the game does rounding differently from me, which is totally plausible, if you add the 2C it has the same proration bracket 360B 2B 623Cx2 6B 623C does, which allows for 4D 22D and maybe spark? I never spark there, but I don't suppose you couldn't.
TagerTime Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 New charged sledge hammer combos, involving 5d->5c and j.c->sledge This is EXTREMELY interesting! i want to see new tager videos so bad!
CrazyI-nomitsu Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 Hate to break the great discussion. I'm going to my first BB tourney. I'm going all Tager. wish me luck.
Koopa_Klawz Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 good luck. just hope you don't have to fight any hazamas, arakunes, and mu lol jk
A.X.I.S. Posted August 13, 2011 Author Posted August 13, 2011 Good luck, my local Noel player is gonna be there and he knows combos.
Manta Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 Just came back from my english tourney, ran afoul at the top of my group when I had to rematch a hazama (and there were two in my group) as a tiebreaker. Fuck hazama.
Tetra - K Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 (edited) 5B currently provides less than half of the heat 22D or 236B does. Unless either or both of their heat gains are significantly changed is a net loss in damage And heat to lose an ender for more 5B's. Just 623Cx2 5B 5C 6A 623C is brings the techable proration down to about 24%ish I think. Whiich I'm pretty sure is high enough to work off a naked collider and 5C/2C collider with the current proration numbers. But the combo you listed is less heat than J.d whiff which is also does more damage and ends up with the ender off far more situations. I understand the desire for higher heat gain, but can you not exaggerate some implications? It kinda breaks my heart to explain to people over and over later that buffs don't do what they thought. I've had to do this a Lot with exaggerated values for GF, 6A armor, and 720 cancel. Also who knows what else I can't remember offhand. EDIT: I've actually seen people say fuck tager or fuck this game when they finally find out that their buff wasn't what they were told it was, so I would very much appreciate no one inventing buffs from what we hear. Huh, well, j.D both do more damage and is optimal with proration. That's how I landed a second colider in this combo : 6B (FC) > 5D > asledge > 2A > 5C > 6A > 2C > colider > (j.D) > j.2C > 2B > 2C > colider for ~3000 ish (and a lot of tension) But even if j.D is optimal in term of prorate and damage (i tried everything else but the colider didn't work in any other way) it could not be optimal in term of tension after this first loketest. Wait and see? Edit : actually in cs2 j.D > ... is optimal both in damage and tension (only 99% sure, can someone confirm me :p) Edited August 13, 2011 by Tetra - K
Osmond Posted August 13, 2011 Posted August 13, 2011 Hate to break the great discussion. I'm going to my first BB tourney. I'm going all Tager. wish me luck. I actually would like to see your Tager in action, just outta curiosity. So if anything is recorded, hook me up?
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