Middle Tennessee Needs Gaming! Monthly Versus Tourneys - Antioch, TN

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

I don't like how the answer to Kanji is don't let him ever knock you down ever and don't let him make you block ever.

[Jackie Chandler]

I noticed something weird. I've heard Japanese players were mashier than we are, and looking at Persona videos, you'll rarely see them blocking. All the BB vids I've seen instantly flew out of my head and I assumed they just didn't like blocking pressure. But now that I'm watching this UNiB tournament, they're back to blocking normally. . . They blocked in BB, they block in UNiB, they block in GG. . . What's up with P4U?

It seems a lot easier to "option select" mash x button during your opponent's blockstrings in P4A- especially since it's a lot harder to fudge a DP input that's two buttons. So if your opponent fucks up their pressure, it's easier to nail them with a 5A/DP/whatever.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

But there's a disturbing lack of block strings, that's my point. In most of the vids I've seen they're just pressing buttons at neutral and getting hit-confirms. I only see them blocking shit on wake-up or on reaction to supers or something.

[Milln]

I don't like how the answer to Kanji is don't let him ever knock you down ever and don't let him make you block ever.

He's a grappler character. This is how they work.

@mashing: I assume that's what we're talking about) create better block strings. Ones that you expect someone to be pressing buttons and will counterhit them and/or block their DP. If people want throw their health away, take it from them. Mashing is retarded and not a strong strategy.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Milln

[Jackie Chandler]

But there's a disturbing lack of block strings, that's my point. In most of the vids I've seen they're just pressing buttons at neutral and getting hit-confirms. I only see them blocking shit on wake-up or on reaction to supers or something.

When you have Counter Assaults like Liz's, that's probably the point. :P

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

He's a grappler character. This is how they work.

Except other grapplers have answers to them and don't have a 100% successful command grab the instant they get in a block string. Other grapplers don't narrow your wake-up options to reversal or die. Even then, with Liz's reversal it's a 50/50. He could decide to use his slow start-up command grab and punish. And yeah, I get that 50/50's are a grappler staple. The problem is it's a 50/50 after you've factored in the possibility that your opponent can press buttons on your wake-up for either a free combo or a free command grab. So then when you and your opponent both know each other, it gets convoluted. Will I be able to punish his oki with a reversal? Will he bait my reversal with a slow command grab? Will I be able to disrespect his bait with a roll? Will he stop my roll with a quick command grab? If I jump to avoid his quick command grab, he can get a free combo if he decides to go with regular oki. If I block his regular oki, he gets a free command grab. It's freaking ridiculous, and I can't recall a grappler who's ever worked like that.

edit 2: I forgot super jump as an answer. Can his Persona anti air grab reject a super jump? Either way, the sheer amount of options on wake-up is getting silly.

When you have Counter Assaults like Liz's, that's probably the point. :P

Watching more vids, I'm seeing more blocking on non-Liz matches, yeah. But like you said, her counter assault is ridiculously easy to bait and punish. Watching more vids, I'm seeing they actually respect blockstrings on netplay. In tournament vids, they might block one or two hits and then start pressing buttons again, and usually only if they really have to block. This is obviously generalizing as I haven't looked for it in a ton of vids yet, but the only person I've seen respect a blockstring mid-tournament so far is a Kanji player.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[Jackie Chandler]

He's a grappler character. This is how they work.

No, I kind of agree with Volpe. At least with characters like Tager, he has to buffer inputs so you can have an idea when the crazy damaging grabs are coming. With the way P4A simplifies the input system, he can do his meterless command grab with invincibility whenever the fuck he wants, and his super command grab which actually makes him travel FORWARDS whenever he has the bar for it (which he's guaranteed when he goes into Awakening- assuming his massive health bar and his opponent wailing on him doesn't do it for him in the meantime). He's much more Rock-Paper-Scissors than Tager ever was.

[Milln]

http://sf4answers.com/questions/421/how-to-perform-a-walking-720-with-zangief-honda-t-hawk-etc

At least with characters like Tager, he has to buffer inputs so you can have an idea when the crazy damaging grabs are coming.

? I'm on my phone, at work, so sorry if I'm not answering questions as well as I could.

[LastStarSaviour]

He's a grappler character. This is how they work.

This is why i've never liked the concept of grapplers in the first place. I've always felt like in a situation in which a grappler knocks you down, on wake-up it should be a complete guessing game in which two players have the same options if they guess right.

To elaborate further, Kanji vs Mitsuru. If I get knocked down by Kanji, here are my options:

- Wake up, press one of my fastest normals

- Wake up, press DP

- Wake up, jump or short hop

- Wake up, block

Now the problem with these options arrive when the said grappler has options that kill multiple options. For instance, If I wake up block, I get grabbed. If I wake pressing one of my fastest normals, I get grabbed. His grab comes out in like 3 or 4 frames doesn't it? My 5A comes out in 7 frames. If I DP out, his grab goes through my DP and I get punished (I'm not sure if it's worse for Elizabeth because of the way her DP works). Wake up jump or short hop, he's not that punishable on a whiffed grab and if you short hop, any button he presses equals instant combo or getting DPed. Also, I have to worry about Kanji setting up his Persona to catch my jump outs.

I feel that both players should generally be at a position where they are both going to be taking the same amount of risk-reward for the guessing game that comes from a knockdown against a grappler, but that's not really the case against Kanji. Topped with the fact that every hit he does leads to 3-4k, it gets pretty stupid.

Are we really going to ignore this giant wall of text that I just wrote not too long ago?

Edited August 24, 2012 by LastStarSaviour

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

It gets even dumber with Liz's command grab. I edited about options on my post, but yours is a lot clearer lol. I also forgot about his dp.

Say I wake up command grab. He can either DP, or his slower command grab can beat it out. Say I wake up roll. He can either quick command grab or dp to beat it. Now I'm paralyzed or taking massive damage and we're back to Kanji's oki again. (Unless his grab+combo leaves you at neutral, I can't remember)

[Jackie Chandler]

? I'm on my phone, at work, so sorry if I'm not answering questions as well as I could.

It's fine, I kind of expected someone might bring that up. It's actually why I only referenced Tager instead of SF characters, since I've never seen a Tager do a standing 720 (it doesn't mean it's impossible). Anyway, the main difference between doing a standing 720 with Zangief/T. Hawk/Hakan and doing a standing super with Kanji is that the former is HARD. There's an undeniable execution barrier in doing a standing 720, and a standing... 214214.

I mean, I guess you could say that "if it can be done, people will do it." That's probably true. However, it's pretty easy to estimate your opponent's skill and be able to tell if he/she can do a 214214C. A standing 720? Not so much.

[LastStarSaviour]

A standing 720, heard Skullgirls had something like that. Lawl

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

It's fine, I kind of expected someone might bring that up. It's actually why I only referenced Tager instead of SF characters, since I've never seen a Tager do a standing 720 (it doesn't mean it's impossible). Anyway, the main difference between doing a standing 720 with Zangief/T. Hawk/Hakan and doing a standing super with Kanji is that the former is HARD. There's an undeniable execution barrier in doing a standing 720, and a standing... 214214.

I mean, I guess you could say that "if it can be done, people will do it." That's probably true. However, it's pretty easy to estimate your opponent's skill and be able to tell if he/she can do a 214214C. A standing 720? Not so much.

Not to mention it still doesn't explain how that makes Kanji work like other grapplers. Other grapplers typically put you in a 50/50 situation on wake-up. Kanji's game is more like rock-paper-scissors-shotgun-jesus.

[Jackie Chandler]

... I just got floated to Winner's Semi-Finals in this MM tournament. Lol.

[LastStarSaviour]

... I just got floated to Winner's Semi-Finals in this MM tournament. Lol.

0_0

[Jackie Chandler]

Aaaaaaand I lost. Good thing the 360 bracket is Double Elimination!

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

Who'd you play? Also, wanna get some matches in?

[Jackie Chandler]

I played a guy called FluxWaveZ. He plays a convincing Shadow Labrys. I'd love to see a match between him and Uri, haha.

And I'll probably have a little time after this tournament/babysitting, if you wanna get some games in then.

[Astaroth136]

I don't like how the answer to Kanji is don't let him ever knock you down ever and don't let him make you block ever.

Kanji can knock you down and not get much for it, especially against characters with air unblockable dp's. Without fatal counters or a shit-ton of meter, Kanji is only going to do 1500-2000 to you. You and Star use characters that are his worst matchups, so all I can say is to play the matchup right. Zone him, escape the corners, repeat.

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

Kanji can knock you down and not get much for it, especially against characters with air unblockable dp's. Without fatal counters or a shit-ton of meter, Kanji is only going to do 1500-2000 to you. You and Star use characters that are his worst matchups, so all I can say is to play the matchup right. Zone him, escape the corners, repeat.

1500-2000 is massive damage for Elizabeth, and I can play the match-up right all day, but the instant I let him knock me down once it becomes an impossible guessing game. With so many valid options Kanji is damn near impossible to read. The whole point of that was that with his oki, it's an insane struggle to even contemplate escaping the corner. I play keepaway all day, but he acts like a sponge and absorbs damage til he gets an opportunity. Once he has momentum, he's hard to stop. The only reason I can really beat Kanji now is because they're super predictable for the most part.

How can you play the match up right when you aren't allowed to block against him, he has an option select that lets him block AND punish dps, and in a decent player's hands with meter can kill my character the instant he gets in on her? Inevitably I have to get close to him; I can't combo unless he decides to be free to agi. Elizabeth's main strength is her offensive with Thanatos and her high damage output, coupled with her zoning capabilities for breathing room. Except Kanji has multiple answers for Elizabeth's reversal, and I haven't tested it but the only answer to his 100% successful command grab is probably counter assault or bursting. And he's probably got an option for Liz's counter assault. Either way, we've already laid out how difficult it is to even begin to play the match up correctly. The amount of options he has is staggering in comparison to anyone he puts on defense.

So basically you're telling me to spam Maziodyne in different patterns and PRAY PRAY PRAY that he doesn't jump it, because once he does it's pretty much game.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Volpe-de-Glacio

[LastStarSaviour]

This is why i've never liked the concept of grapplers in the first place. I've always felt like in a situation in which a grappler knocks you down, on wake-up it should be a complete guessing game in which two players have the same options if they guess right.

To elaborate further, Kanji vs Mitsuru. If I get knocked down by Kanji, here are my options:

- Wake up, press one of my fastest normals

- Wake up, press DP

- Wake up, jump or short hop

- Wake up, block

Now the problem with these options arrive when the said grappler has options that kill multiple options. For instance, If I wake up block, I get grabbed. If I wake pressing one of my fastest normals, I get grabbed. His grab comes out in like 3 or 4 frames doesn't it? My 5A comes out in 7 frames. If I DP out, his grab goes through my DP and I get punished (I'm not sure if it's worse for Elizabeth because of the way her DP works). Wake up jump or short hop, he's not that punishable on a whiffed grab and if you short hop, any button he presses equals instant combo or getting DPed. Also, I have to worry about Kanji setting up his Persona to catch my jump outs.

I feel that both players should generally be at a position where they are both going to be taking the same amount of risk-reward for the guessing game that comes from a knockdown against a grappler, but that's not really the case against Kanji. Topped with the fact that every hit he does leads to 3-4k, it gets pretty stupid.

Are we really going to ignore this giant wall of text that I just wrote not too long ago?

So did this giant wall of text just get ignored? I hate having to re-iterate my points. The discussion was not about match-ups, it was about kanji having to work relatively less than any other grappler for his damage.

Edited August 24, 2012 by LastStarSaviour

[Grimstar]

'Sup, Yosuke? Heard you thought you were tight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcT4OXrNcWc&feature=plcp

Oh. My. FUCK I MUST PLAY THIS CHARACTER!!!!

When does this shit come out?!!!?

Let me guess, no US release.

FUCK IT

[Astaroth136]

So did this giant wall of text just get ignored? I hate having to re-iterate my points.

Ok, I'll bite.

It's still R/P/S. On your wakeup, his options

C cmd grab > normals, evasive action

D cmd grab > normals, dp

dp > normals

5A > jump aways

dp = dp

Your options that beat his...

dp > normals, C cmd grab

super > normals, C cmd grab, D cmd grab

block > 5A

jump away > C cmd grab, D cmd grab

backdash > dp

evasive action > normals

dp = dp

Edited August 24, 2012 by Astaroth136

[Astaroth136]

The discussion was not about match-ups, it was about kanji having to work relatively less than any other grappler for his damage.

I already told you that his damage ONLY comes from spending a burst and/or tons of meter. If he hits you with a CH 5A, he just gets small damage and oki. An antiair 5A results in a jump loop for somewhere around 1500-2000 damage.

Shall we discuss Mitsuru damage? lol

[Volpe-de-Glacio]

Oh. My. FUCK I MUST PLAY THIS CHARACTER!!!!

When does this shit come out?!!!?

Let me guess, no US release.

It comes out in Japanese arcades in a week or so, I think. No news on that, and with the lukewarm reception Melty Blood received we can only really cross our fingers.

Ok, I'll bite.

It's still R/P/S. On your wakeup, his options

C cmd grab > normals, evasive action

D cmd grab > normals, dp

dp > normals

5A > jump aways

dp = dp

Your options that beat his...

dp > normals, C cmd grab

super > normals, C cmd grab, D cmd grab

block > 5A

jump away > C cmd grab, D cmd grab

backdash > dp

evasive action > normals

dp = dp

You're forgetting his persona swipe > backdash, his persona anti air grab > jump aways (if it's fast enough, i'm not sure) And why does nobody care that he has a command grab set-up that you can only avoid by spending 50 meter or bursting, and even with 50 meter he still has options to stuff Elizabeth? He gets an assured 2.6k-3k JUST BECAUSE YOU BLOCKED. His oki completely denies blocking on wake-up! WTF?

Edited August 24, 2012 by Volpe-de-Glacio