[CS2] Iron Tager vs Tsubaki

[A.X.I.S.]

Oh joy she is actually a problem now.

Lets talk about it guys.

Thread name subject to change.

[Azzal]

Don't know what to do against her. She can abuse her SRK, sledge doesn't break it anymore, i can n't press her as she can make her dragon totally safe.

With the IB nerf I can't do anything when I'm under pressure.

And is her shield bash safe now? u_u

And her 5B doesn't allow us to jump out...

Horrible...

edit: and she is full install in no time...

Edited May 19, 2011 by Azzal

[Isorropia]

Without D stocks she can't cancel her DP's into anything - just block and 360B them. Otherwise, during your pressure try doing a charged 6A, it works well against people who are DP happy. Also her shield rushes are -5 on block so you can 720 them normally or IB 360B.

Under pressure you've got your work cut out for you, she got a lot of frame data buffs that made her pressure tighter, in addition to the IB nerf. Typically you'll just have to block intelligently, learn where your opponent goes for risky stuff (eg charge cancelling, dashing in, anything that resets pressure) then you get out at that point. So, for example, if the tsubaki's you play like to do some jabs, then dash in and do more jabs or throw, learn where they tend to do it and try 5A/360A to break their pressure.

Hope that helps.

[Airk]

Some clarifications.

Most of Tsubaki's DPs are still projectiles and should therefore be sledgable. Only the D version is not a projectile, so respect that when she has charge.

Shield rushes are only minus on block if spaced poorly. Unlike Hell's Fang and Ice Car, these moves don't go into recovery until the active frames have finished, so if she hits you towards the end of her active frames (there are ten of them) then she can actually be significantly plus on block, so be aware of how far away she was and what version she used (A version is blue, very short range, B version is green, moderate range, C version is red, long range, D version crosses up.) If she spaces properly, she can easily jab you out of either buster, or jump up and punish.

214A/B/C/D (This one) now have head/body invulnerability for a significant part of the move, so will go through jump moves, 5D, 4D, 5C, Spark Bolt, Sledge (But not Hammer) and other moves without foot attribute (look 'em up yourself.)

236A/B/C and 214A/B/C can be canceled into D moves even on block, so watch out for cancelling into 22D for a counterhit. DP can be cancelled into either air special, so you need to be aware of her charge meter at all times.

236236C now has a bunch of startup invulnerability, and...well...

So... keep on soldiering, Tager players! I believe in you!

[Astaroth136]

The ONLY way to win this is to rush her down ASAP. Don't let her get any charges in. She's pretty free without charges, but we lose when she's full up. When the match starts, IB the 5B (many Tsubakis start with this) then react to their next move. If they IAD away, sj.C,D (close to ground) to counterhit her charge. Elbow drop the antiair if you think she's going for that.

Don't even try to beat her dp when she has charges. Nothing works. Nothing.

With the IB nerf, we just have to block her strings and try to guess what she's going to do next. Although, IB 720 still works on instant blocking 5BB.

This matchup is really tough now.

[Kiba]

Don't let her get any charges in.

Realistically, she's always going to get stock against Tager.

If they IAD away, sj.C,D (close to ground) to counterhit her charge. Elbow drop the antiair if you think she's going for that.

She can just run underneath you, and rinse and repeat. Alternatively, she can air grab you. A player wouldn't continue to charge once they see you getting in on them like that.

[Manta]

From matches with the above (With netplay, so pinches of salt are required):

• Jumping in gets you 2C'd, that's fine, you can barrier that because it's obvious, but do it too much and that 2C gets replaced with an airthrow, which is 4k's work of pain to land on.
  
• If you do 6[A] to hook her in whilst magnetised, she will just 236D you, hit your super armour, but pass though you to the other side where your 6A will miss and she gets a nice combo of whatever the hell she feels like, there's probably time for a 6C fatal hit. Don't do it unless she's airborne.
  
• Be random, throw colliders out midscreen, poke with 5D from well outside range and don't ever spark bolt predictably, in fact, save that for combos or really obscure opportunities, She can just pass through it with her projectile invulnerable moves.
  
• Tsubaki's meter is less likely to be used for damage (She can use charge for that with ease), expect RCs on anything seemingly unsafe and CAs on unpleasant blockstrings
  
• 236D can be 360A'd if you block it, but she can obviously jump or backdash away from it.
  
• After Gadget finger, if she has charge (and she will), she can DP and make it safe with that diving projectile. (Backdash AC might catch it, need to test.)
  

[Osuna]

From matches with the above (With netplay, so pinches of salt are required):

• Jumping in gets you 2C'd, that's fine, you can barrier that because it's obvious, but do it too much and that 2C gets replaced with an airthrow, which is 4k's work of pain to land on.
  
• If you do 6[A] to hook her in whilst magnetised, she will just 236D you, hit your super armour, but pass though you to the other side where your 6A will miss and she gets a nice combo of whatever the hell she feels like, there's probably time for a 6C fatal hit. Don't do it unless she's airborne.
  
• Be random, throw colliders out midscreen, poke with 5D from well outside range and don't ever spark bolt predictably, in fact, save that for combos or really obscure opportunities, She can just pass through it with her projectile invulnerable moves.
  
• Tsubaki's meter is less likely to be used for damage (She can use charge for that with ease), expect RCs on anything seemingly unsafe and CAs on unpleasant blockstrings
  
• 236D can be 360A'd if you block it, but she can obviously jump or backdash away from it.
  
• After Gadget finger, if she has charge (and she will), she can DP and make it safe with that diving projectile. (Backdash AC might catch it, need to test.)
  

The cool thing about jump barrier is that you Can look for the air throw since it's often the only thing they can do to you in that situation that does damage. It's totally reasonable to tech it on reaction when it's the only thing you have to look for.

Also I don't endorse 5D being used that way on the grounds that, even though it might score some points for being weird, 5D is 50 frames long, and even at max distance for 236D it only needs to react within 24 frames of the start of the move, so in the long run it's really not a legitimate strategy.

I really want people to keep their terms straight too when it comes to things related to punishes, because that line there is confused and theoretically confusing. 236D cannot be 360A'd. After blocking a 236D you can 360A 5A's (I see 5B's too) without IB, you can 360B on IB.

Essentially you get gadget finger mix up minus 5A, which is nothing like being able to 360A 236D. I know we explained the same thing, but I think the differences are worthwhile.

[Manta]

Also I don't endorse 5D being used that way on the grounds that, even though it might score some points for being weird, 5D is 50 frames long, and even at max distance for 236D it only needs to react within 24 frames of the start of the move, so in the long run it's really not a legitimate strategy.

That was more of an example than anything. The main issue here is to just be random as if you were fighting another Tager. Operate on some Yomi layer that doesn't even exist. Just don't use sledge and hammer, because well, 5B.

[Kiba]

From matches with the above

Oh come on dude!

Jumping in gets you 2C'd, that's fine, you can barrier that because it's obvious, but do it too much and that 2C gets replaced with an airthrow, which is 4k's work of pain to land on.

She can also run underneath you to get more stock. Depending on spacing she can even use 214D, which can be cancelled into the unblockable.

I may be wrong with this, but midscreen, meterless, Tsubaki doesn't get 4k off an air throw.

[Manta]

Oh come on dude!

She can also run underneath you to get more stock. Depending on spacing she can even use 214D, which can be cancelled into the unblockable.

I may be wrong with this, but midscreen, meterless, Tsubaki doesn't get 4k off an air throw.

Seemed like a lot of damage to me, since you have all of those stocks to hand.

[Manta]

Addendum, 2D is a better approach tool than Bsledge. Its greater number of active frames and magnetism makes it impossible to backdash. Do be careful of the range though, if she can backdash out of range then you're handing over a free combo. Try to do it when she's charging or you'll get stuffed. Walking is still often a better approach overall though

[Airk]

Addendum, 2D is a better approach tool than Bsledge. Its greater number of active frames and magnetism makes it impossible to backdash. Do be careful of the range though, if she can backdash out of range then you're handing over a free combo. Try to do it when she's charging or you'll get stuffed. Walking is still often a better approach overall though

This. It never ceases to amaze me how many Tagers seem to superjump wildly/sledge/2D as part of their approach, as if they don't know how to walk. Here's a hint - the only thing Tsubaki can do to you from outside of Tager's 2D range is 236C/D, which you should be able to block on reaction while walking forward. Save the other nonsense for once you're closer.

[CrazyI-nomitsu]

This. It never ceases to amaze me how many Tagers seem to superjump wildly/sledge/2D as part of their approach, as if they don't know how to walk. Here's a hint - the only thing Tsubaki can do to you from outside of Tager's 2D range is 236C/D, which you should be able to block on reaction while walking forward. Save the other nonsense for once you're closer.

Just think if we had a dash. She wouldn't be able to charge.

[Osmond]

Not going to happen, but I would love to punish all those char-char-char-char-char-charging arsmagus! shenanigans. And think a the rampant sledging and jumping as instinct after a year of Hazamas

Edited July 21, 2011 by Osmond

[Osuna]

People keep thinking tager would be much better with a dash, but they forget that if we Did have a dash it wouldn't be a very good one. It'd be a grappler's dash before considering the nerfing we would take in exchange because they don't want tager to be good.

[Manta]

That's fine, I can live without a dash. All I want for christmas is a move that compares to ragna's 5B.

[CrazyI-nomitsu]

People keep thinking tager would be much better with a dash, but they forget that if we Did have a dash it wouldn't be a very good one. It'd be a grappler's dash before considering the nerfing we would take in exchange because they don't want tager to be good.

Damn! Osuna always dropping logic bombs like fire. We forget that Mogi( whatever his name is) believes easy characters are crap tier. I wonder if he's going to be at evo. Anyways this is super off topic. Onto Tsubaki, my only problem with this bitch is that I have the brain of a monkey and let her charge every time. And when she comes with the charge it's like blocking an Amy Rose on fucking crack.

[Zoular]

That's fine, I can live without a dash. All I want for christmas is a move that compares to ragna's 5B.

5C with magnetic pull

[Koopa_Klawz]

k so what exactly can we ib > punish on tsubakis shit? all i know is 5b. :/ also which of her 236s are safe on block (that shield rush move)?

im starting to hate this match up

[Kiba]

Think of it like this.

Any string Tsubaki does to you, such as 5BB, can be IB - 360'd. Tsubaki however isn't really supposed to be pressuring Tager because of the many holes in her strings.

Any 236X move she does on you can be 360'd regardless of IB. If she does that, unless it's on hit, she'll just be helping you. They can be 360'd if they try to attack, and then when they realise it, they try to backdash or jump away. This can be beat with AC (jump away) or 5A/5C (backdash).

[Manta]

Think of it like this.

Any string Tsubaki does to you, such as 5BB, can be IB - 360'd. Tsubaki however isn't really supposed to be pressuring Tager because of the many holes in her strings.

Any 236X move she does on you can be 360'd regardless of IB. If she does that, unless it's on hit, she'll just be helping you. They can be 360'd if they try to attack, and then when they realise it, they try to backdash or jump away. This can be beat with AC (jump away) or 5A/5C (backdash).

Works both ways though, if you backdash or leap away from 360A, then you can dash back in on reaction and punish it. equally, Doing AC or 5C can just be punished with 5BB... It's like a gadget mixup, but not as nice for Tager.

[Kiba]

Works both ways though, if you backdash or leap away from 360A, then you can dash back in on reaction and punish it. equally, Doing AC or 5C can just be punished with 5BB... It's like a gadget mixup, but not as nice for Tager.

Yea, you're right.

With that said, it'll come down to who knows the other play better. For me however, I wouldn't like to be put into a position where Tager can 360 me.

[Manta]

Yea, you're right.

With that said, it'll come down to who knows the other play better. For me however, I wouldn't like to be put into a position where Tager can 360 me.

360A leads to less damage than a raw AC. Truth.

[Kiba]

Well that's worse for me since you've figured I like to jump away alot from 236D!