[CSE-CP] Tsubaki Yayoi Simple Questions and Answers thread! Version 3!

[Kakimori]

Recently I've been trying to level my game up by learning Tsubaki's IAD combos, and I'm having some difficulty but not understanding what I'm doing wrong. Assuming that 2CC AA > IAD j.CC > 5C > 2CC > 236B > 214B > 22B is her BNB IAD combo, here are the issues I've been having:

If they're too low to the ground when the 2CC hits them, my IAD j.CC will go over them and whiff.

If they're too high in the air or close to me when the 2CC hits them, Tsubaki will actually IAD underneath the opponent and I'll whiff.

I always, always, always blue-beat the 5C after the IAD j.CC no matter how fast or hard I mash it afterwards.

As far as going underneath them sometimes with 236B, that's just a matter of practice and timing. I at least understand what I'm doing wrong when I do that, and how to fix it...since most of the people here know all her combos pretty well and have gone through the process of learning them, I'm hoping somebody has had my problem in the past and could shed some light?

[TheGreatReptar]

I've always found the easiest way to practice the IAD timing is to go in the corner and do 22D>5C(w)C>2CC>IAD. The height is always perfect afterwards so you'll have some idea of where you want the opponent, and you can focus mostly on the timing of the j.CC>5C.

And you don't necessarily have to do an IAD for "IAD" combos. You can also do things like jumping back, then airdashing forward if you're too close, and you can actually delay the airdash>j.C quite a bit. If they're too low, you might have have to do j.BC>j.CC>j.236A>j.214C for a combo, since there isn't really any way to get them up higher if you've already done 2CC. If you only do 2C and it lands counterhit (which isn't a bad thing to assume will happen since you're assuming it's to stop a jump in), you can do dash>5C>2CC on counter and it'll usually put them at a height you can do IAD stuff off of. It can be tricky to react properly to off of just a raw 2CC.

As for bluebeating the 5C, you have to put a delay between j.C and j.CC so you're lower to the ground when j.CC hits so you land and recover quickly enough for the 5C to hit. It's got sort of a rhythm to it. You can't just hit j.CC as quickly as you can.

[Adam0812]

Sure man, if they're very low to the ground you can actually pick up with IAD j.b > j.c > 5c after the 2cc though personally I find this quite difficult and don't rely on it, instead a low hitting 2cc I will just settle for 2cc > CAB magic ender.

If they are particularly high, you can delay alot of parts. E.g high hit 2c > delay 2cc > delay IAD > j.c > delay j.cc > 5c > stuff.

These delays are quite subtle and you will find it easier to delay of you land a CH 2c.

I know it's not want you want to hear, but practice is your best option, I've played 5k games with tsu in extend this sort of thing just becomes instinctive.

Hit training mode and see if you can get the IAD at various heights to work. May some others can offer better advise

[Adam0812]

Looks like myself and tgr were typing furiously at the same time.....

[Kakimori]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh I had no idea I needed to delay the second C of j.CC...that explains a lot. I don't mind practicing a lot to get it right (I'm bad at combos so God knows I practiced long enough before I could do even 6CC > j.B > j.C > j.CC > j.236A > j.214A consistently), I'm just a little unclear what I should be doing at the various heights. So based on what you guys are telling me, it sounds like it's a bit of a judgement call every time you land 2CC as to whether you get the "perfect" height or whether you need to jump back first, etc. Knowing that, I'll put some more time in. Though, uh...what exactly is a CAB magic ender?

By the way, thank you both (and everyone here) for your input and help! And Merry Xmas!

[Adam0812]

Delaying the 2nd j.c is the most important part by far, is its still not linking, them tue rest of my post becomes relevant, those these are very very subtle changes.

CAB or BBB ender simply means the rekkas used to end the combo so 236c > 214a > 22b or 236b > 214b > 22b etc. if you have not used 236c in the combo so far I would always recommend using the CAB ender, reason being 214a launches them highest giving you most time to charge 22b, the longer you charge 22b, the more untech time. If

You time it right, you will be able to use 5d for a full charge before they can get up, which is incredibly useful. Merry Xmas to you to bro!

[Kakimori]

OK, so now I've gotten to the point where I can do it about 2/5 times and the rest is just practice. One more question, though...sometimes I land everything fine and then blue beat the 2CC after the 5C for no discernible reason. Does this just mean that my timing on delaying the second hit of j.CC is a little off?

[Errol]

set the dummy to tech instantly and you'll understand why combos don't work easier.

It's got nothing to do with the timing of the JCC though, whatever it is. I don't think I know any reason why 2cc wouldn't connect after a 5c following an IAD, except for proration, and, just not pressing the button quick enough.

[Kakimori]

I'm definitely pressing the button as fast as possible. It might be that they're a TINY bit too high in the air, so I can connect with j.CC and 5C, but when I go to 2C it takes just that much more time to reach them? After doing it more, I notice that whenever this happens, the 2C is striking them right at the edge (tip of the wing), and it usually occurs after the first 2CC hits them in a slightly higher position (never happens with ideal position). Could be that extra 1/10 second or whatever for the 2C hitbox to reach them is enough time to tech. Thanks, I will set the dummy to tech instantly and see if I can learn anything more.

I also had it happen once that the second hit of j.CC landed but also took me behind them, so the 5C (no blue beat) was facing the other direction. Weird random stuff, probably also caused by being a little bit too high.

Anyway I feel like I'm on the right track, thanks to all of you!

[Errol]

oh, yeah. that does happen. it's easy enough to react to them being too high and do an aerial ender after 5c>2c. but aerial enders are ass in CSEX so that's a big loss.

[Her_Omen]

Is there a tutorial on Charge Canceling somewhere?

Or at least a brief how-to on how it works and when is good timing to do it...

[Surf]

Pretty sure there's no tutorial. Charge cancelling allows Tsubaki to charge cancel to normals 5A, 2A, 5B, 2B, 2BB, 5C, 5CC to lessen their recovery a small amount and to give her a bit of charge. Charge cancelling is different from say just taping D, because charge cancelling a normal gives you a little more than you would original get if you tapped 5/2D.

-Do not use 2D to chagre cancel, it is inferior to 5D.

-Do not charge cancel 5A, 2A, and 2B. As they become even more unsafe if you do.

-5B, 5BB, 5C charge cancels imo are the best ones

-Self explanatory but do not abuse charge cancelling, she is never safe from any of them aside from charge cancelled 5CC

If your want to know the exact frames your at after charge cancelling I did the numbers a few weeks ago. In the end use them but don't abuse them, their good for mixing things up here and there but their never really "safe".

[Airk]

Pretty sure there's no tutorial. Charge cancelling allows Tsubaki to charge cancel to normals 5A, 2A, 5B, 2B, 2BB, 5C, 5CC to lessen their recovery a small amount and to give her a bit of charge.

This is actually slightly incorrect - charge cancelling does not necessarily "lessen the recovery" - it sets the recovery to 18 frames. Which means it actually makes the recovery WORSE on 5A, 2A, 2B. I know you point this out below, but it's still worth correcting.

-5B, 5BB, 5C charge cancels imo are the best ones

Curious as to why not 5CC, since that's the only one that doesn't leave you at a disadvantage.

In the end use them but don't abuse them, their good for mixing things up here and there but their never really "safe".

Again, you're not being precisely correct here; 5B, 5BB, 5C, and 5CC charge cancels are all safe, and even 2B and 2BB are pretty "safe" - no one can PUNISH you after any of these (except for Tager with GETB after 2B/2BB). This means that charge cancelling is an excellent way to bait reversals because you can charge cancel -> Block when, say, you get people who like to try to DP after IBing 5BB or just after 5CC in general expecting you to go to 6B. Even "fast" DPs in this game are like 7 frames, so you can easily block them after a charge cancel.

What you are NOT after a charge cancel is plus frames; This means that while you CAN use charge cancels as a way to extend pressure, it is imperative that you not be predictable, because you are relying on your opponent not being able to react and throw out a jab that will then hit you out of whatever you try to do next. Part of the problem here is of course the fact that the charge cancel animation is super obvious, and your opponent has the entire time they're in blockstun to notice that you've done it and start mashing.

The other bad news is that there really aren't that many places in a string where you can charge cancel effectively - you never, EVER want to do it after 2B because it actually makes you significantly more minus (Same applies to 5A/2A, but there's not really any reason to even consider this); you can do it after 2BB but you're at -5 (instead of -7, so still an improvement, but not good). This makes it hard to avoid being somewhat predictable. One of the more useful spots to charge cancel is probably after plain ol' 5B if it is blocked at a range where nothing else will connect. This allows you to microdash 5B again to try to get closer, or to disengage (though if you want to do the latter, you're probably better off just jump cancelling into a backwards IAD.). The other strong places to do it are 5C/5CC, because both of those moves are super super negative on block and charge cancelling them makes them safe (but not plus!)

This all ties back into Tsubaki's blockstrings and the various ways she can interrupt them to try to extend her pressure.

[Kiba]

Curious as to why not 5CC, since that's the only one that doesn't leave you at a disadvantage.

From a pressure perspective, 5CC leaves you with the least followup options and they tend to be predictable.

From 5CC, you can use:

-Special cancel

-6B

-Charge cancel

Whereas from 5B(B) for example you get access to more gatlings and mixups, including the charge cancel which makes 5BB > CC better. Heck from 5C you can even go into 6C.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Kiba

[Airk]

I guess, but it seems like those three options cover most of the things your opponent can do? I mean, is 5C > 6C ever really a good idea? o.O

[Kiba]

I mean, is 5C > 6C ever really a good idea? o.O

Depends on the opponent's playstyle, like if they're a little mashy, or you wanna go for TK stuff, but generally no.

It was just to point out that 5CC has less options than the others.

[Airk]

Depends on the opponent's playstyle, like if they're a little mashy, or you wanna go for TK stuff, but generally no.

It was just to point out that 5CC has less options than the others.

Fair enough! Though an opponent has to be both mashy AND bad at mashing for 5C > 6C to be useful, since we're talking about a 7 frame gap there, so if they're actually mashing jab, you lose. Probably better to just delay 5CC in that case and save your 6C for a CH confirm.

[TheGreatReptar]

Fun fact, you don't even have to confirm CH 5CC>6C. Since it only gatlings on hit, you can option select 5CC>6C~6B or 5CC>6C~6D to auto confirm it.

[Airk]

Fun fact, you don't even have to confirm CH 5CC>6C. Since it only gatlings on hit, you can option select 5CC>6C~6B or 5CC>6C~6D to auto confirm it.

Slick!

[Surf]

This is actually slightly incorrect - charge cancelling does not necessarily "lessen the recovery" - it sets the recovery to 18 frames. Which means it actually makes the recovery WORSE on 5A, 2A, 2B. I know you point this out below, but it's still worth correcting.

It lessens the recovery on the main ones you should be using. As I said you should never use 5A, 2A, and 2B for charge cancelling.

Curious as to why not 5CC, since that's the only one that doesn't leave you at a disadvantage.

Kiba already answered this but, because your at 0 doesn't mean it's the best option. 5CC's pushback is stupid far even on normal block, even thought your at 0 you can't really take advantage of it because there's quite a distance between you and your opponent. And also as Kiba said, your options are limited when it comes to 5CC.

Again, you're not being precisely correct here; 5B, 5BB, 5C, and 5CC charge cancels are all safe, and even 2B and 2BB are pretty "safe" - no one can PUNISH you after any of these (except for Tager with GETB after 2B/2BB). This means that charge cancelling is an excellent way to bait reversals because you can charge cancel -> Block when, say, you get people who like to try to DP after IBing 5BB or just after 5CC in general expecting you to go to 6B. Even "fast" DPs in this game are like 7 frames, so you can easily block them after a charge cancel.

If someone IB'd 5BB and you went to charge cancel you'd be -5, and that's no where near safe. And quite a few characters would be able to DP or 5 frame jab you. You wouldnt be in CH state, rather the last 1-3 frames of recovery where you wouldn't be able to block at all. -2 is arguably safe depending on the character your facing and it's about as far as I go in the "safe" region. You can still be hit out of the recovery if their fast enough (with 5-6 frame or less startup moves) but a lot of the time that wont happen.

The other bad news is that there really aren't that many places in a string where you can charge cancel effectively - you never, EVER want to do it after 2B because it actually makes you significantly more minus (Same applies to 5A/2A, but there's not really any reason to even consider this); you can do it after 2BB but you're at -5 (instead of -7, so still an improvement, but not good). This makes it hard to avoid being somewhat predictable. One of the more useful spots to charge cancel is probably after plain ol' 5B if it is blocked at a range where nothing else will connect. This allows you to microdash 5B again to try to get closer, or to disengage (though if you want to do the latter, you're probably better off just jump cancelling into a backwards IAD.). The other strong places to do it are 5C/5CC, because both of those moves are super super negative on block and charge cancelling them makes them safe (but not plus!)

There are plenty of chances of places you can charge cancel. In my eyes Tsubaki's pressure it divided into 2 parts.

Staggering/Frametraps (They can somewhat be put in the same category)

Charge Cancelling

If you find a balance within these 2 charge cancelling becomes a lot more effective. No one can "react" to a charge cancel, craps like 18 frames. All they can do is predict or call it out. They can see the last few frames and hit you out of whatever you plan to do next, but most of the time they will fail if your not being predictable. If your applying your pressure right, and slip in a charge cancel some people will see the last few frames and try to press something. And if their 2-3 frames too late, they would be CH by a 5A.

[Airk]

It lessens the recovery on the main ones you should be using. As I said you should never use 5A, 2A, and 2B for charge cancelling.

That's nice. That isn't what you wrote, is all. If you're trying to explain to someone who doesn't know this stuff, you should endeavor to be precise.

If someone IB'd 5BB and you went to charge cancel you'd be -5, and that's no where near safe.

-5 is borderline, IMHO, especially since they have to IB to get it.

And quite a few characters would be able to DP or 5 frame jab you.

No one can DP you in 5 frames. Even Jin's A DP is 6 and it isn't what people would be using here. An interesting additional thought that just occured to me is that most character's 5 frame jabs will whiff on you if you're in the 2D animation or crouching.

You can still be hit out of the recovery if their fast enough (with 5-6 frame or less startup moves) but a lot of the time that wont happen.

What?

If you find a balance within these 2 charge cancelling becomes a lot more effective. No one can "react" to a charge cancel, craps like 18 frames.

Tell this to the people who claim to able to react to throws. No, 18 frames is within people's reaction threshold IF they are watching for it. If it surprises them it's not reactable. If they expect it (which is not the same as "calling it out") they can react. If I do 5B > CC 50% of the time and 5BB > CC the other 50% of the time and never anything else, I would expect people to be able to react to that after a while. Hence the need for unpredictability.

[Surf]

I'm not going to turn this into a back and forth so I'll just leave it at that.

[MikelAL93]

After seeing that Unlimited Tsubaki demonstration video, there was something I knew I'd ask.

Is it possible to do U.Tsubaki's new distortion outside of OD? The video only showed it done during OD, so it made me wonder whether or not its an OD-exclusive DD like Carl's version of Vol Tedo.

[Kiba]

We have no evidence so we don't know.

[Kakimori]

What's the range on Tsubaki's new command throw? Is it kissing range like her normal throw?