[CS2] Lambda vs Jin

[Airk]

Pleaase help me how to deal with this Jin. I rarely beat him at all... around 1/10 nowadays... T_T

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no6P4ftoA8c&feature=youtube_gdata

It would be good if anybody could point out specifically what I should have done at what time instead of what I did..

My guess is that he already learn my style..

#1: Tech purple throws

#2: Whenever you are falling after teching an air combo, hold 4+AB to barrier block. Jin LOVES to reset you with 6C if you don't barrier block while falling in front of him

#3: If he whiffs a 2D (The ice spike that comes up out of the floor) then you have 35 frames to punish. Do it. Do not attempt to punish on block.

#4: Anti-air. Jin likes to reset his pressure by jump cancelling 5C for a jump in. You have to make him respect you by anti-airing him here and at least making him work and do shenanigans instead of getting back in your face for free. Fundamentally, Jin's pressure isn't really that good - good Jin players do all kinds of crazy stuff with ambiguous crossups and the like to make it good. Anti-airing their dumb stuff forces them to either back off or play better.

[toanenadiz]

The problem is that double jump can go pass 6DD and 214D -> then my next attack would do 2DD -> but he still pass 2DD by air ice car when I did... so now I really don't know how to deal with him. Then the pressure just ate me more on that runs.. now I think lambda has really in disadvantage against Jin match up.

looked at the first page of video thread :

Lambda lose to jin in all the vids.. just like what happen here, Jin get close-by very quick.

Were we watching the same vids? Because Lambda won in the last one and in the other 2, Jin didn't do anything to get in that other characters(except Tager) couldn't also do.

And if he double jumps, don't do 6D, do 2D instead. And if he is using ice car to avoid your 2Ds, you are being way too predictable with them. At the height where he can evade 214D in the air, ice car is extremely punishable by pretty much everything

And I am pretty sure Jin vs Lambda is an even match-up, like it has been since CT. Not much has changed in the tools each character has against each other.

[kenja0]

Other than the comments that other people have said, you need to be mobile.

The creators gave Lambda a nimble dash over step dash AND 5 primers because she needs it to position herself- she cannot handle pressure. Don't let Jin know where you'll be when he moves into position. Airdash away or forward. If he's jumping over you, dash under him.

If you condition your opponent to play a cat and mouse game, that's when you can trick them by going on the offense with say an airgrab or a sword. E.g. I used in casual match back in the day: IAD back>IAD back>IAD forward>airgrab. After I saw them air dash forward twice to my airdashes back, I've conditioned my opponent to approach the same way multiple times. I trick them into a grab. Now this shouldn't work all the time, but you want to be one step ahead of your opponent and essentially predict where they'll end up.

When you 236D him, you need to capitalize on it and go for a mixup. 214D is fine, but if you want to break primers, do it consistently. Anytime you get a knockdown, you should always be throwing out 236D or 214D so he'll block. Doing 214D while he's standing isn't a good idea because his ice swords can crash you spike chaser because his are fast.

Never ever Ever throw out random 5Cs against anyone. Not because it's bad but because it leads to a bad habit of doing it in response to everything. 5Cs never connect on ground opponents because they'll block it and it will never AA anyone in the air because it's too low to the ground. 5C vs aerial opponent means you're going to get hit. If anything, position yourself for 6D/2D or 6A and maybe 2C.

And lastly, don't panic under pressure. Bursting early doesn't help the situation. Wake up and block his oki so you can learn what your opponent is capable of AND learn their tendencies for blockstrings and combos.

[Starkaiser]

Were we watching the same vids? Because Lambda won in the last one and in the other 2, Jin didn't do anything to get in that other characters(except Tager) couldn't also do.

.

The last vid actually link to the fight between lambda vs Arakune, but the first 2 vids lambda lose badly there by the reason that Jin could pass her zoning, just similar to my case, altho the JP lambda player getting better at zoning, that JP Jin get better at getting close too, end up with same result.

@Kenja0 ; ohh! I completely forget to dash under him in whole yesterday 10x runs! yes, I used to do that on vid 1-3, I just dunno why I forgot it now, thank for pointing out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj7I5P4CQbk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cyOFJO3tI8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDlNe2pMQyI

Actually, I m curious if anybody here has playable connection to Asia?

I know Rezzah live somewhere there from connection. Because it'd be best if I can see an actual lambda who could still zone him now. he is both slow-quick depend on my zoning. I don't know where did he practice it from..

Anyway, Thank you a lot for tips, I will try to note them down and fix. I feel better now to see many lambda users still be around this forum. at first I thought many already left this characters.. (because other character forum are kidda very active) My friend Piowah/Muzamane used to main this character before I played this game, but he now left for Bang or something ;w;

I m glad. Still many of us. ^__^

Edited July 8, 2011 by Starkaiser

[toanenadiz]

The last vid actually link to the fight between lambda vs Arakune, but the first 2 vids lambda lose badly there by the reason that Jin could pass her zoning, just similar to my case, altho the JP lambda player getting better at zoning, that JP Jin get better at getting close too, end up with same result.

If you went to the next match in that last vid, you would see sivaxs beat stunedge. And my statement that the Jins weren't doing anything other characters can't do still stands. To me, it looked like the Jin were having a really hard time getting in and your previous statements made it seem like they were getting in for free. Rather than Jin having a good match-up against Lambda, it is more likely that your friend just has a better understanding of the match-up than you do.

http://wiki.hardedge.org/index.php/Matcharchiv:_Jin_vs_Lambda%28BBCS2%29

There is a link to a bunch of Lambda-Jin matches. You'll find more matches where Lambda won.

[Starkaiser]

We used to do on-pair in match up, but dunno how did he go practice, and it turn out that he counter everything I do.

I think Jin has ice sword that can repel your 214D that need much longer time to charge, and ice car that beat 236D at far distant. if he used before me, then I would know to guard and punish, but he only use it when I use 214D or use it as surprise attack... so yes, he probably know the match better than me now. Could I get some help on breaking down particularly on Jin's action?

-If he use ice sword from ground... will you guard it or repel it with 5C(risky)5D? assume that he will run to you after sword, so guarding it mean let him in.

-If he double jump, I know that I can 2DD him, but if he use ice car to evade 2DD, then I will get punish back, so what should I do? If I wait him to use air ice car first to punish after and he doesn't use that. then he will be right in front of me for free..

-how to push him off me when he already close-to me? what is a good way other than my usually 2A->B->combo and 236A which no longer work on him..

-From videos, did you look them? it is possible for you to guess his habit from it for strategy?

@toanenadiz, those jin and lambda from each video have different players, so I m not sure if they can make any compare at all. But the general result is that: aggressive Jin always seem to win (and easy too) while defendsive Jin always lose.(but not so badly) They are under pressure of competition so I see defensive Jin always make many little mistake that even I can point it out. so it is different from online match here where little delay will make lambda unable to pull out difficult combo.(while Jin user can do all of his combo online, so he has more tools). And the good Jin in online match doesn't mistake to wait much. He doesn't have only just one chance, so he can take a bet of 50:50 choice. if he win the bet he can punishment harder anyway. This is my opinion from seeing your links. I wonder if the lambda on winner side will meet with Jin on winner side in SBO soon, so we can see which char get advantage.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Starkaiser

[toanenadiz]

-If he use ice sword from ground... will you guard it or repel it with 5C(risky)5D? assume that he will run to you after sword, so guarding it mean let him in.

-If he double jump, I know that I can 2DD him, but if he use ice car to evade 2DD, then I will get punish back, so what should I do? If I wait him to use air ice car first to punish after and he doesn't use that. then he will be right in front of me for free..

-how to push him off me when he already close-to me? what is a good way other than my usually 2A->B->combo and 236A which no longer work on him..

-From videos, did you look them? it is possible for you to guess his habit from it for strategy?

1) You can IB the A version and because of his recovery time, he can't gain that much ground against you. I would jump over the B version and D him if he tries to approach after it. You can 5D him out of the C version for a CH combo but otherwise you can use the strategy for the B version. Of course all these are range dependent so vary them accordingly.

2) If you are afraid of using your normals to AA him after he double jumps, you can just move out of the way.

3) This depends on how he pressures. Your friend looked like he pressures by gatling into his moves that are plus on block so he can reset his pressure. Most of those moves have long start-up and you can react and either punish or backdash them to reset to neutral.

It didn't look like your friend was forcing his way in. It looked more like your zoning was off and you were afraid of Jin getting in. Of course, I wasn't playing the match so I can't accurately tell.

@toanenadiz, those jin and lambda from each video have different players, so I m not sure if they can make any compare at all. But the general result is that: aggressive Jin always seem to win (and easy too) while defendsive Jin always lose.(but not so badly) They are under pressure of competition so I see defensive Jin always make many little mistake that even I can point it out. so it is different from online match here where little delay will make lambda unable to pull out difficult combo.(while Jin user can do all of his combo online, so he has more tools). And the good Jin in online match doesn't mistake to wait much. He doesn't have only just one chance, so he can take a bet of 50:50 choice. if he win the bet he can punishment harder anyway. This is my opinion from seeing your links. I wonder if the lambda on winner side will meet with Jin on winner side in SBO soon, so we can see which char get advantage.

I guess we will have to disagree on this. I tend to see the Lambda make a mistake in their zoning which lets the Jin in, rather than the Jin somehow forcing his way in most of the time. With the rare exception of a random ice car, all the Jin followed the same basic strategy and the better player just won.

And I don't have issues with doing any my combos online so I can't see where you are coming from when you are talking about the Jin having more tools.

Also, the latest match-up chart has Jin vs Lambda in CS2 as an even match-up. Even if Lambda and Jin fought at SBO, it wouldn't really change what is in the match-up chart.

[someonewhodied]

Huh. Yesterday i was playing, and with Jins most commonly used corner blockstring segment [5C>2C](Or other way around)>6C>6D, if you normal block, you can get a 5A out before Jin's 6D, or if you barrier, 6C may still leave you out of 6D range, letting you get a 5D(CH)>236C. (Doesn't happen often, but I still see it occasionally)

You shouldnt be gettin stuck in the corner anyways though.

Gravity seed on ice car makes me laugh every time. I get a free 6D combo.

Also, I have a a problem with people that do a 2369C instead of a 236B, they dont stay in one place. I dont really know how to get some good damage on Jins that move around the entire match and only use aerial ice swords for ranged poking instead of ground ice swords.

[Starkaiser]

^

^

^

And that is how he play, he always move around the whole match.

-Gravity Seed on ice car, what timing do you mean? I don't we can do that unless we know he is coming by car. and we are screw up to give him free time by thinking of this if he choose to come in another method? Is there to make this no risk ?

-I think Jin don't use 6C>6D unless we certain that his 6C hit me, or when he plan to freeze me for Astral Finish. what I used to see is that he will keep doing small loop of mix up between A B C in close, or come throw.

About the combo that I can't do it online, there are so many. Mostly the one that start with 236B has very tight timing. if you need example, the one it use on Jin and Tsubaki in this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l84op9PYEhY

Thank for all information.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Starkaiser

[Starkaiser]

Thank for everybody, I think I got some improvement from every suggestion. Compare to the last time when I totally lose and he could counter all of my actions. I think I did progress something back to him this time. (the win rate is 3:7 now, still lose tho)

So this is the lastest vid I fought him, could you guys give some more improvement tip base on this new video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKMSnIn51io

[someonewhodied]

I mean a B gravity seed when you see him ice carring, or a C gravity seed when you KNOW hes gonna ice car.

And EVERY Jin does 6C>6D at least once a match. The thing is, a barrier block may leave you out of 6D range, giving you a juicy 5D(CH)>236C combo, which SHOULD put you back in the lead if you are losing. (If you are losing so bad that a 5K combo doesn't put you ahead, maybe you shouldn't be playing lambda, right?)

And don't worry, NO ONE can pull off long comboes consistently online. The most I've gotten was 6K with Mu, who has VERY generous combo timing. (Even people on my friends list with a 4 connection will lag.) I've pulled almost all of those off in both training room AND against real players offline. (Well, the people I played offline had questionable skill since they were just casuals playing in the gaming room at AX earlier this month)

Edited July 17, 2011 by someonewhodied

[toanenadiz]

So this is the lastest vid I fought him, could you guys give some more improvement tip base on this new video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKMSnIn51io

I would recommend using less 5C. Lambda's 5C is a pretty bad move to use at neutral or to poke out because it is so slow and has a really bad recovery. It is also bad for oki because it is easy to see and most characters can just tech and do their reversal.

And work on hitconfirming. There were a few times when you would get a hit with 236D or 214D but you wouldn't even break 3K.

Quick thing to note. Since you saw that he wasn't blocking your 236236D and was in the air above, knowing his tendency to ice car, you should have been prepared for it and punished him during the recovery of it.

And don't worry, NO ONE can pull off long comboes consistently online.

Speak for yourself. Most of the people I play have no issues with doing their long combos online.

[someonewhodied]

On another note, this goes for every character, but DON'T GET NEGATIVE PENALTY AGAINST JIN AND GET HIT WITH A FATAL. Almost Instakill comboes for the lose ;^;

[Starkaiser]

Quick thing to note. Since you saw that he wasn't blocking your 236236D and was in the air above, knowing his tendency to ice car, you should have been prepared for it and punished him during the recovery of it.

oh, so you mean like I can 6DD it in time before failing? because I already dash into another direction when they happening.

And work on hitconfirming. There were a few times when you would get a hit with 236D or 214D but you wouldn't even break 3K.

I m aware of that, but lately he has been dodging them all, so I didn't expect it to hit him those timing. If I wait to see the result whether it hit him or not, then my movement might get slower, so what should I do?

I wonder a good lambda should do the feint/attack/poke/hit confirm and stand in prepare to wait for result? or just move ahead to make sure you can dodge his coming counter attack and from his cornering you ?

I would recommend using less 5C. Lambda's 5C is a pretty bad move to use at neutral or to poke out because it is so slow and has a really bad recovery. It is also bad for oki because it is easy to see and most characters can just tech and do their reversal.

and what should I replace them with? thank.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Starkaiser

[cookiehours]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ATo0sZw95I&feature=channel_video_title

This should help people having trouble with Jin. Yeah, some mistakes here and there but the goal to a Jin matchup (or any matchup) is to react accordingly to what they attempt and DON'T PANIC.

[someonewhodied]

Hmm watching the first 45 seconds or so, I would say, you should work on hitconfirm, and go for a 236B after hitting a 3C.Then you can shoot of a C gravity and pluck some of those ripe and juicy guard primers with spikes. (After forcing a block with sickle)

And instead of 236C after 236236D>236D block, you could, once again, take out a primer just as easily with spikes.

And you make one of my most common mistakes too. Too much 236C lol.

I'm not doing too great either but:

http://youtu.be/yyIjNPgAhgY?t=9m39s

I got a bit sloppy, and got impatient in the second round and went straight for a DD after 6C....I need to stop going for the kill so impatiently.

Also, notice how I got brutally murdered every time I went for the 5C startup comboes.

Edited July 18, 2011 by someonewhodied

[cookiehours]

Hmm watching the first 45 seconds or so, I would say, you should work on hitconfirm, and go for a 236B after hitting a 3C.Then you can shoot of a C gravity and pluck some of those ripe and juicy guard primers with spikes. (After forcing a block with sickle)

And instead of 236C after 236236D>236D block, you could, once again, take out a primer just as easily with spikes.

And you make one of my most common mistakes too. Too much 236C lol.

I'm not doing too great either but:

http://youtu.be/yyIjNPgAhgY?t=9m39s

I got a bit sloppy, and got impatient in the second round and went straight for a DD after 6C....I need to stop going for the kill so impatiently.

Also, notice how I got brutally murdered every time I went for the 5C startup comboes.

My hit confirm is better than this but when there some input delay, I tend to screw up.

[someonewhodied]

Of course. Online screws everyone up. (Which is why, until recently, I always preferred aerial C comboes over D comboes)

I only have slightly faster reactions (Now, starting about a week or so back) than most people because I've been playing online from a capture card, so I'm seeing things half to a full second later than my opponent (capture card lag for the lose), and because of that, I have to react instantly. That helps a LOT when I'm playing on my tv because I react much more quickly.

[Starkaiser]

The resolution is much better than expected from a digital video camera. Nice!

But, from each video, I can see clearly that those Jins aren't the same strong. So, wining or losing to those isn't what important here, but the important is what can we learn from it. (or any other lambda can learn from this thread)

Therefore, I think it might be better if our pro lambda players can make some kind of video like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpvrafHIyhw

That video is case study for Tager, it tell all opponent behavior and how to counter it. I think lambda could do the same since we have many tools for doing so.

The video will be a great guide that everybody can use to any Jin. (he/she can choose the tool to counter each Jin from the choices)

For example, if you stuck in this kind of situation, how to go out of it. case by case study.

We could possibly focus on Jin and Hazama.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Starkaiser

[toanenadiz]

oh, so you mean like I can 6DD it in time before failing? because I already dash into another direction when they happening.

I m aware of that, but lately he has been dodging them all, so I didn't expect it to hit him those timing. If I wait to see the result whether it hit him or not, then my movement might get slower, so what should I do?

I wonder a good lambda should do the feint/attack/poke/hit confirm and stand in prepare to wait for result? or just move ahead to make sure you can dodge his coming counter attack and from his cornering you ?

and what should I replace them with? thank.

1) You can pretty much do anything in that time. He is in CH state the entire time until he lands(and he still has 5 frames of additional recovery once he lands) so he can't do anything during that time. You could have just barrier cancel'd your dash when you saw him ice car and punish it.

2) That is just a skill you have to work on. When using Lambda, you have to be able to move in ways which let you capitalize on any hits you get while being able to be safe from the opponents potential next actions at the same time.

3) At close range, 5A, 5B and 2B are better. They are significantly faster and have better recovery with more gatlings. At longer range, you can either use 3C, your drives or just move around to put yourself into a better situation. Lambda's 5C is slow with a 16 frame start-up, doesn't lead to enough damage to justify the risk(unless it is CH 5C(1) or with 50 meter) and has between 40 and 52 frames of recovery(depending on whether or not you are mashing 5C) and she is in CH state the entire time. You really want to avoid using it outside of punishing, combos or in blockstun.

Therefore, I think it might be better if our pro lambda players can make some kind of video like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpvrafHIyhw

That video is case study for Tager, it tell all opponent behavior and how to counter it. I think lambda could do the same since we have many tools for doing so.

The video will be a great guide that everybody can use to any Jin. (he/she can choose the tool to counter each Jin from the choices)

For example, if you stuck in this kind of situation, how to go out of it. case by case study.

We could possibly focus on Jin and Hazama.

I don't think that is realistically possible. That video was for a very specific situation. There is no issues with positioning, frame advantage and things like that.

Using your examples, Hazama has far too many possible movement options for you to be able to do a video like that in a reasonable amount of time. Not to count the many variations of his pressure or his ability to control the pace of the match. Similarly with Jin, there are many possible options at any point in the match and you have to just be able to properly react and know what you need to do. To be able to put all that in video form would be way too much to ask of the better Lambda. And your post would have been better put in the general Lambda thread so more people would have been able to see it and comment on it.

Edited July 19, 2011 by toanenadiz

[Starkaiser]

And your post would have been better put in the general Lambda thread so more people would have been able to see it and comment on it.

You mean these post about Jin? Can I post at general?

Anyway,

About my idea, I wasn't meaning of covering all situation, but just cover the general part that Jin always do :

For example : show that he walk in and use 2D->5C-> sting.

then the result for bad example = lambda get hit by Jin combo.

result for good example = guard until which part and counter with combo.

actually, if I can request there is just 2 part I really want to look at mainly.

first is his general corner combo sting with reset. he usually have not many choices but will try to mix with throw or 6A rapid. A good Jin will try to reset between this loop with smallest chance for us to punish. and I want to know the way to get out here. (so you can separate into "if he 6A route" "if he 6C route" etc.)

Second one is his (jin) general respond/evade to our Drive in air, how many choices does he have to dodge our attack safety, and what should we do after?

There is no 100% thing, but he has just not so many choices in those two cases, but still I don't know a good solution for it.

[toanenadiz]

You mean these post about Jin? Can I post at general?

Anyway,

About my idea, I wasn't meaning of covering all situation, but just cover the general part that Jin always do :

For example : show that he walk in and use 2D->5C-> sting.

then the result for bad example = lambda get hit by Jin combo.

result for good example = guard until which part and counter with combo.

actually, if I can request there is just 2 part I really want to look at mainly.

first is his general corner combo sting with reset. he usually have not many choices but will try to mix with throw or 6A rapid. A good Jin will try to reset between this loop with smallest chance for us to punish. and I want to know the way to get out here. (so you can separate into "if he 6A route" "if he 6C route" etc.)

Second one is his (jin) general respond/evade to our Drive in air, how many choices does he have to dodge our attack safety, and what should we do after?

There is no 100% thing, but he has just not so many choices in those two cases, but still I don't know a good solution for it.

I meant the part of your post about doing the video. There is a greater chance for people to see it if it is in the Lambda general thread instead of a match-up thread.

And what I meant by he has too many options can be explained using your example.

There are basically 3 ways you can be hit by Jin's 2D. Either the ice blade appears behind you, it appears on top of you or it appears slightly in front of you. Depends on which where it appeared, your options are different.

Behind you: You can IB the 2D and backdash the 5C. Alternatively, you can just dash in and CH 3C him before he does 2D.

On top of you: You can normal block and backdash. Also depending where exactly where you are inside of it, you can IB the 2D and CH 2B him out of 5C.

In front of you: Block and CH 5D/CH 5C(1) him.

All this assumes he follows up with 5C, which he doesn't really have to since he has frame advantage and can use it to do what he feels like.

And the issue with Jin is that his pressure is so varied, that even if you block 2D->5C->string, the string he uses could be vastly different each time and can't really be safely predict'd and punished. You really have to make intelligent guesses on where you want to escape and how.

If you notice certain blockstrings your friend uses, you can post them here and we can help you figure out what to do against those strings.

The best way to really figure out what Jin can do to evade our drives is to go into training mode, and use the dummy to test various things. The same with corner pressure. If Jin's pressure could be mapped out in a way like you want for the video, Jin wouldn't really have that great of pressure.

[someonewhodied]

Ok I'll start with common blockstring segments that MAY be escapable.

2C/5C>6C>[Dash>Grab | 6D | 214A/B/C | 623A/B/C]

Thats pretty much all of Jin's options from 6C.

Is there anything that can be done to get out of all of them? Back in CS1 I would DP out but, lambda doesn't have that anymore ;^;

[Fireryda]

after a 6C the only thing he can do is 236A/B which i'm pretty sure leads to nothing on CH. Everything else can be punished with a 5a unless he's feeling really ballsy and wants to DP.

6C is not something safe for him to go into on block.

[toanenadiz]

Ok I'll start with common blockstring segments that MAY be escapable.

2C/5C>6C>[Dash>Grab | 6D | 214A/B/C | 623A/B/C]

Thats pretty much all of Jin's options from 6C.

Is there anything that can be done to get out of all of them? Back in CS1 I would DP out but, lambda doesn't have that anymore ;^;

If you are positive they are going to do 2C/5C->6C, you can backdash before the 6C comes out and get away.

But assuming you block that, make sure you IB the 6C and then if he:

6C->dash->grab: you can 5A him for free. Doesn't matter what he does after the dash. 5A will CH him during his dash. If you are feeling ballsy, you can use gravity to beat the throw too.

6D: 5A again. You can also backdash and you can do a CH 5D for massive damage.

Ice car: Just block and punish. You can't do anything outside of giant sword of doom to prevent these. If you try to do anything but block, you will be hit. Backdash fails due to the amount of active frames the Ice Cars have. And 5A will get you CH by the B and C versions(you are in blockstun in the entire time before the A version hits you, so 5A won't come out).

DP: Block low. Get your free CH 5C(1).

Edited July 19, 2011 by toanenadiz