[CS2] Lambda vs Hakumen

[someonewhodied]

Eh, this matchup is so simple it may not even need this thread.

Theres really nothing to this matchup.

Just spam 6D from across the stage.

It will pick up Hakumen from all of the following:

Airdash

IAD

Forward Dash (From half-screen)

High Jump

Normal Jump

Single Command Dash (RIGHT after dash ends from about 1/3rd of the screen away)

The only thing you have to watch out for is when Hakumen uses all of his meter to command dash across the screen to get to you. When Haku has 3 meter or more, throw out the occasional 236D (NOT 236D~C)

No videos are needed to demonstrate this. Its THAT simple.

[M19Kamikaze]

...ok.

Just don't forget he can bind projectiles. You'd be surprised how many people forget this and do something stupid because of it. I'm notorious for 236X-ing into Bind. So notorious in fact that I HAVE to do it in every Haku match I'm in. But don't be like me lol

[someonewhodied]

Only his 2C and j.2A/j.5C come out fast/slow enough (Perfect timing needed) to bind a 6D. Most hakus don't waste time doing that because after round 1 when I see that coming and get a nice little D counter to a good combo, they stop and just try to approach.

I've lost maybe 5 or 6 matches against hakumens in the past 5 months.

[kenja0]

Eh, this matchup is so simple it may not even need this thread.

But why you make it then?

[mAc Chaos]

Maybe I'm underestimating you guys, but I think you're not giving Hakumen enough credit.

[toanenadiz]

If you are spamming 6D, wouldn't the Hakumen use your recovery time to move forward and push you towards the corner?

[mAc Chaos]

Any Haku worth their salt will get around day 1 tactics like that easily.

[kenja0]

Maybe I'm underestimating you guys, but I think you're not giving Hakumen enough credit.

Compared to other matchups like Noel, Taokaka, or even Tager, there's really nothing to fear about Hakumen. His close-up game isn't nearly as scary, especially since his overhead doesn't combo, grabs are obvious and magatama moves aren't that good with the right defensive options.

Binding, his command dash and counters are the only thing that will give Lambda problems. Obviously, if we guess a zone wrong, we're going to be taking 4k, but it is much more relaxing to play the match against Hakumen than it is against the 4 Primer characters.

But yeah, if you look at a lot of these threads, we like to pacify, shittalk, and exaggarate. It's just fun.

These threads are here to point out general things that are useful, not necessarily holding their hand to victory.

Edited September 14, 2011 by kenja0

[lilseph]

IMO hakumen is Lambdas easiest MU, but at the same time its not free. People don't give Hakumen enough credit. He has that godlike airdash BTW and he doesn't NEED to approach from the air.

[kenja0]

IMO hakumen is Lambdas easiest MU, but at the same time its not free. People don't give Hakumen enough credit. He has that godlike airdash BTW and he doesn't NEED to approach from the air.

Actually, it feels like her matchups in order from easiest to worst: Hakumen, Arakune, Tager, Platinum, even match ups, 4 Primer characters.

[mAc Chaos]

Tager's a worse matchup than Hakumen. No. NO. It can't be true. It's IMPOSSIBLE.

[kenja0]

Tager's a worse matchup than Hakumen. No. NO. It can't be true. It's IMPOSSIBLE.

Command grab, sledgehammer, spark bolt, 6A and magnetism. Sure he has a harder time getting in than Hakumen, but he has way scarier options up close.

[toanenadiz]

Actually, it feels like her matchups in order from easiest to worst: Hakumen, Arakune, Tager, Platinum, even match ups, 4 Primer characters.

Doesn't she have even or better match-ups against half of the 4 primer characters? Do you still consider those match-ups among the hardest?

Tager's a worse matchup than Hakumen. No. NO. It can't be true. It's IMPOSSIBLE.

Tager has randomness. Haku doesn't.

[kenja0]

Doesn't she have even or better match-ups against half of the 4 primer characters? Do you still consider those match-ups among the hardest?

Tager has randomness. Haku doesn't.

Lambda has a + matchup against Rachel, but Rachel has a way easier time getting in, setting up, and possibly getting the better of a Lambda player. They have to work harder than us, but it is very possible to win and stupifying a Lambda player.

Lambda also has an even matchup against Noel, but Noel has great mixup, primer breaking ability, and evasion tactics.

Those two are not linear.

Hakumen is quite linear. He can win, but he has to work much much harder than Rachel would need to.

[SansProtocol]

Compared to other matchups like Noel, Taokaka, or even Tager, there's really nothing to fear about Hakumen. His close-up game isn't nearly as scary, especially since his overhead doesn't combo, grabs are obvious and magatama moves aren't that good with the right defensive options.

You haven't been put in the corner by a good Hakumen then. You have one real way out with meter as you lost your DP. If you're letting Hakumen get close, you're going to regret it. Thankfully, you have the tools to keep him out and capitalize well off of any random hit. The matchup is only slightly in her favor because he can do nothing at medium/long-range against Lambda (projectiles, Sledge).

Binding, his command dash and counters are the only thing that will give Lambda problems. Obviously, if we guess a zone wrong, we're going to be taking 4k, but it is much more relaxing to play the match against Hakumen than it is against the 4 Primer characters.

You have to focus on wearing down the patience of the Hakumen player. If he does something stupid like superjump/double jump while you're close to the corner, dash out. You're the annoying little fly that Hakumen needs to swat, so play like that.

But yeah, if you look at a lot of these threads, we like to pacify, shittalk, and exaggarate. It's just fun.

These threads are here to point out general things that are useful, not necessarily holding their hand to victory.

These threads are here to encourage putting all match-up knowledge into print and have the rest of said character community critique it as it comes out. The more conversation being had on a certain match-up, the more knowledgeable the player base will hopefully become.

IMO hakumen is Lambdas easiest MU, but at the same time its not free. People don't give Hakumen enough credit. He has that godlike airdash BTW and he doesn't NEED to approach from the air.

Arakune and Mu are most likely easier as Lambda doesn't essentially negate a vital thing Hakumen needs to succeed (unlike the curse set-ups/stein set-ups they need). Those characters' players are harder to come by, so it's understandable to default to Hakumen.

[lilseph]

Arakune and Mu are most likely easier as Lambda doesn't essentially negate a vital thing Hakumen needs to succeed (unlike the curse set-ups/stein set-ups they need). Those characters' players are harder to come by, so it's understandable to default to Hakumen.

I can't say I'm the greatest player around, but just from my experience alone I can say 100% that Hakumen is the easiest MU. It is hard for me to make an argument because quite frankly I Don't play Arakune or Mu and i don't really know what all their attacks, combos etc. are but I at least know what they look like and what to watch out for. Arakune yes does have a hard time getting in, and to be honest i think he has a harder time than Hakumen does. BUT at the same time Arakune has FG meaning that the lambda can not herp derp and throw around D's all over the screen. He can also find gaps in Lambda's D's and quickly drive bomb to the ground (Don't think that is an attack, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mosWeqFBd1w @ 0:49). Yes Lambda does shut down his curse set ups etc. Arakune players have to take this MU in a different approach and not just throw around a curse cloud and teleport around the place, that will not work against Lambda.

A good Mu player (at least from what I've seen) doesn't need to set up her steins and then go in for the hurt. From what i have seen she can do that mid block string and during combos. Also even if she does do it full screen, what are is Lambda going to do? punish her? Those steins come out extremely quickly and unless shes spamming out 4 at a time, your not going to catch her with an aerial combo. Also Her steins clash with our D's if I recall correctly, meaning she can throw out 1 or 2 here and there and slow push towards us. I look at this MU like I'm fighting Ragna, she really has no safe or solid option to get in on us, but when she does it hurts and she has quite a few traps that will catch people off guard unless they know this MU.

I'm not trying to make a case for these characters saying that they are bad MU's for Lambda, I'm just saying that Hakumen has it rough as he really has no way of getting in because he is so linear, its easy to cross of options that he has and throw out the appropriate attack. I know numbers don't mean anything but I think Aarakune 6/4, Mu 5.5/4.5, Hakumen 6/4 (maybe 6.5/3.5).

[kenja0]

Arakune and Mu are most likely easier as Lambda doesn't essentially negate a vital thing Hakumen needs to succeed (unlike the curse set-ups/stein set-ups they need). Those characters' players are harder to come by, so it's understandable to default to Hakumen.

I get my shit wrecked by a good Mu player who knows how to setup even with good zoning precautions. Sure Mu is at a disadvantage because we negate her steiners, however, wouldn't that be the same thing against us if Mu was up close? It's the same for every character in the game- they suck far away but are good up close against Lambda.

Mu depends on steiners to get people locked into her game: but without it, she isn't bad. She has a slightly more balanced mixup than Ragna up close which is still considerably better than Lambda's. Mu has the speed and tools it takes to rushdown Lambda successfully despite that initial disadvantage. All it takes is one knockdown and that entire match is pretty much lost because you're locked in with steiners with no real good way to stop it.

Arakune has a more difficult time than Mu and requires more than one opening to get his game going, but it's the same thing. And once he gets 50 Heat, the game completely changes and then suddenly there's a wildcard.

What does Hakumen have that's scary for Lambda? He can't break primers without ending his mixup or burning magatama, staggering his blockstrings don't provide any benefits over what other characters can do, his mobility is really sluggish, his dash telegraphs aerial moves. I have been locked down in the corner by Hakumen before, but I have also been locked down by Noel, Tsubaki, Mu, Litchi, Ragna, Carl, Rachel, Hazama, and Tager midscreen AND corner on a regular, offline basis- Hakumen's doesn't come close to being as scary as those others.

Kishuu is the only thing he has that unsettles me. It resets his blockstring at a very low cost and can possibly lead into a grab. I wish I could say my teching game is amazing but I'm more reluctant since I've taken 5k on a regular basis for misreading an attack as a grab.

A good Hakumen player who plays their cards right can still win, but an equally skilled Mu or Arakune is capable of way more potential in the matchup against Lambda.

Edited September 14, 2011 by kenja0

[mAc Chaos]

I actually agree with kenja0. There's not that much a Hakumen can do against a real good Lambda on top of their game. Even though Lambda isn't Nu and Haku can cut swords, she can still keep him out indefinitely and he does a lot less damage these days when he gets in.

I was just saying going by the advice here so far that it still isn't as simple as just 6D > win. A good Haku could get around that easily. It still takes tight playing and being on top of things.

Edited September 14, 2011 by mAc Chaos

[kenja0]

You're right, it's not that simple. As a matter of fact, Lambda is not scared of Hakumen up close, but Hakumen is not scared of Lambda far away. Hakumen doesn't have good options up close, but he has the options to keep Lambda pacified.

In a real, calculated match between the two, the match can be extremely stressful because both Hakumen and Lambda are fishing for damage and openings while at the same time creating openings in themselves when they are acting.

[mAc Chaos]

Yeah, the match is just a big footsies match basically.

[lilseph]

Yeah, the match is just a big footsies match basically.

This is basically what we have all been saying, just condensed.

Glad we got this all figured out.

[someonewhodied]

If you are spamming 6D, wouldn't the Hakumen use your recovery time to move forward and push you towards the corner?

Have you seen how fast 6D comes out over and over? If Haku tries to airdash after a whiffed 6D, you can easily get another one out to hit him. (or if he blocks it, 236A under him and repeat)

If he tries to command dash, after 2 command dashes, he isn't within range to attack you other than 4C, and you still hit him with 6D after.

If he tries to 623A623A623AA you, you can still hit him with 6D before 623AA.

If you mistime, well, your options to get away are: 236A (If haku is airborne), Backdash (If haku is too close already to 236A away from and in the air), Instant Back Airdash (If haku is too close and grounded)

Any Haku worth their salt will get around day 1 tactics like that easily.

Think up a way for haku to get around this without a lucky bind, and I will tell you why it doesn't work.

[mAc Chaos]

Well, I'd rather just show you in a match.

[SansProtocol]

Just got back from running around town on a bus and finished homework and I have a chance to go into depth about what I think:

• The matchup is 5.5/4.5. If Lambda still had CS1 Gravity Seed, this would be 6/4 easy. Without 50 Heat, she has no reliable move to get out of the corner against Hakumen. Secondly, if he is pushed into the corner, it only takes one 2D/5D to put Lambda into it and shift the momentum completely.
  
• Lambda can keep Hakumen out but has no real way to make him antsy about taking his time (guard primer breaking and such). Also, voids can be used not only to "sit and wait", but to absorb hits that protect his approaches. In this match-up, your tools are there to whittle down the patience of the Hakumen player and capitalize on stupid mistakes.
  
• As I said before, this is a patience match for both players. The longer it goes on, the more it gets better for Lambda usually. Lambda is not looking for damage in this matchup, she's looking to stay alive and tire out the other player. She has superior mobility and range, but Hakumen outclasses her on wake-up and up-close. You just have to make the most of your advantages and keep away from him until you notice he's starting to crack.
  
• A good Hakumen player will watch Lambda. Her moves are highly telegraphed and a Haku with enough experience will know what move she's throwing out just by her start-up gestures.
  
• Lambda's 6D is a great tool to use against air approaches, but a whiff is horrible for her. Hakumen has enough time to use Kishuu to cause it to miss and then CH her with 3C if he sees it coming. Keep it random and mix 4D/TK Cresent Saber if they're crouching a lot.
  

I could go into this more, but I would probably repeat a lot of stuff. It's a slow match, but a lot better for Hakumen than it's being made out to be. Take it from a guy who still hates this match-up with a passion XD.

EDIT: You should all have a look on Spark's writeup for this matchup here. It's a must-read.

Edited September 15, 2011 by SansProtocol

[someonewhodied]

I guess that all of the tons of hakus I beat just sucked then....None of them ever got past my 6D....