Tari Posted October 1, 2011 Posted October 1, 2011 Throwing up a thread to centralize the discussion of the tutorial video and its progress. Basic outline: Normals -Shouldn't need to extensively go into all of them, just mention what's used for important stuff (poking, spacing, anti-air, etc). And some important notes like 5B/2B are projectile property, etc. Tools -Same, just a basic explanation of what they are and generally how they're used with a few basic examples Neutral -General gameplans for how Rachel works. Zoning -How to control space with rods/pumpkin/george etc. Rushdown/Offense -Pressure strings/mix up. Should also put in some corner setups too. (maybe oki setups should go here idk?) Defense -Don't spam 2C like a retard. Wind tech, etc. CA is your friend. Combos -Basic windless combo, Meterless BnB, Metered BnB, corner version Omake
Tari Posted October 1, 2011 Author Posted October 1, 2011 (edited) Normals: Ground: 5A - Fastest poke, very bad on whiff; 2 hits 5B - Jump cancellable, standard combo starter; is a projectile normal 5C - Fatal counter, unsafe to gatling into without pumpkin, chains into 5CC and 3C 5CC - Causes groundslide, breaks primer on block 2A - Fairly good poke, more reliable fast normal than 5A 2B - Rachel's go-to low for most situations; is a projectile normal 2C - Almost a reversal, leads into huge damage on CH, breaks primer on block, incredibly unsafe on whiff and block. 6B - Fairly good long range poke, causes groundslide on CH. On CH, can be combo'd after with wind. Useful blockstring/combo filler. (CSE removes jump cancel property) 6C - Used with wind (5D/6D) in combos to corner carry opponents; can be extended with 8D. Special cancellable and gatlings to j.C and j.2C on hit/block. On CH, links to 5A. Is Rachel only normal that is plus on block. 3C - Causes knockdown, can be cancelled into specials after any hit, can be chained into 3[C]; 3 hits, neutral on block. 3[C] - Extends 3C into 6 hits. Cannot be cancelled into anything. Neutral on block. 4B - Rachel's only standing overhead. Very unsafe without pumpkin and wind due to lengthy startup, and difficult to combo from without wind. Breaks primer on block. Safe on block. Air j.A - Rachel's standard overhead. Incredibly fast mixup when combined with wind. Reasonably good air-to-air. j.B - Combo filler, and fills in for j.A in specific situations where j.A will not work. j.C - Good air-to-air when at certain ranges, notably when below the opponent. j.[C] - Causes Rachel to float slowly downward after j.C. Extends windless air combos. Can be airdash-cancelled and is cancellable into any air move. Used situationally for mixup with George. j.2C (L1) j.2C (L2) j.2C (L3) --------- Specials: Impish Gypsophilla (pumpkin) A Tiny Lobelia B Tiny Lobelia C Tiny Lobelia A Tiny Lobelia (air) B Tiny Lobelia (air) C Tiny Lobelia (air) Sylpheed --------- Supers: Baden Baden Lily Tempest Dahlia --------- Other: Ground Throw Air Throw Astral Finish Edited November 17, 2011 by Tari
Tari Posted October 1, 2011 Author Posted October 1, 2011 And, to real discussion. What normals do you guys think we should cover? 2B/5B are obvious ones, due to their odd projectile properties. 6B for its amazing CH, and 2C because, well, it's cat chair (though I suppose this will get discussed in defense?). j.2C, j.A, and j.C/j.[C] are probably worth mentioning. What else, though? 4B? 5CC? Feel free to throw out ideas for any of the sections in the video. The more we have to draw from when putting it together, the easier it'll be.
gli Posted October 1, 2011 Posted October 1, 2011 I'll get some footage of 5B/2B captured this weekend.
TD Posted October 1, 2011 Posted October 1, 2011 6a of course, because the guardpoint can be used for more than just aaing. l think any move that is affected by sylpheed can possibly be filled out. 5cc can be used with 1d/3d to extend combos in/near the corner, respectively. 6cd has it's situational uses using the sword iris feint to get into point blank range. 3c, well, still looking to see if she could low profile certain things such as litchi daisharin, or something crazy like aaing valk's j.c (still experimenting :<). these are just examples.
Tari Posted October 1, 2011 Author Posted October 1, 2011 (edited) 3C has about the same profile as 2A/2B (in fact, 3C may be a bit taller at some points), and the hitbox is significantly thinner vertically than 2A, so I doubt it'd work as an anti-air in places where 2A wouldn't (ie: Valk's j.C). 3C's definitely worth mentioning, though, seeing as how it's her midscreen knockdown move into oki. So normals so far: (standard normals) 5B - jump cancellable 2B 3C - note: slides far with wind (good for defense) 6B 6A j.C - reasonable air-to-air with very good CH properties 2C - breaks primer, unsafe on block/whiff (insane recovery). leads into huge damage on CH. (handy with wind or in specific situations) j.A 6C 5CC - breaks primer on second hit, is not safe to gatling into without pumpkin (unsafe) 4B - breaks primer on hit, her only standing overhead, difficult to use without wind, and unsafe without pumpkin (only adding this because it's her overhead) Anything else we should mention? Made some basic notes on the on a few moves, but that's about it so far. Hm. Maybe we should mention 2A/5A as well. Edited October 1, 2011 by Tari
kotokot Posted October 1, 2011 Posted October 1, 2011 2a is fastest usable normal, 5a is fastest, but very painful on whiff. j.b is good air to air option when j.c whiffs. I think we can describe every normal.
Tari Posted October 1, 2011 Author Posted October 1, 2011 2a is fastest usable normal, 5a is fastest, but very painful on whiff. j.b is good air to air option when j.c whiffs. I think we can describe every normal. Yeah, we're getting close to describing every normal already. At this point, we might as well go for broke.
TD Posted October 1, 2011 Posted October 1, 2011 for 4b, the reward is pretty good and pays for the risk on hit (combo) or block (primer break; wide, safe options afterwards). with this being said, sneaking it into blockstrings often is important for keeping foes from sleeping on your pressure. mix it up with her faster overheads to keep your opponent from disrespecting a future unsafe attempt, or those who block low and just react to 4b.
Sakaku Posted October 1, 2011 Posted October 1, 2011 Maybe we could cover 1 or 2 things about certain match-ups, like it's a bad idea to throw out Lobelias in the Lambda MU and how we can avoid her oki using wind tech. We should also mention that (always) ending a blockstring with 5CC A Lobelia is a bad idea, especially against the likes of Noel or Lambda who just can 3C under the Lobelia. 2A and 6B: main pokes
kirbster Posted October 1, 2011 Posted October 1, 2011 (edited) 6b, aside from being a good ranged poke, is also an awesome blockstring/combo filler. Gives you time and flexibilty to go into a lot of things. Easy to hit confirm into 5d > 3c, from then you can continue your combo depending on the situation. On block, you can push them away with a lobelia, gattling into 5d > 3c (this leaves you at +0 for mixups) or jump cancel it for pressure OR defense. Very versatile. On CH it blows the opponent away. Usually people summon pumpkin and George after that happens, but you can combo off it with a winded jump if you have really good reaction. Edited October 1, 2011 by kirbster
Tari Posted October 2, 2011 Author Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) Alright, check the second post and let me know any revisions/additions you guys want to make to the list. 6C and j.[C] don't have anything written for them yet, and everything below j.[C] has nothing written yet either. Maybe we could cover 1 or 2 things about certain match-ups, like it's a bad idea to throw out Lobelias in the Lambda MU and how we can avoid her oki using wind tech. We should also mention that (always) ending a blockstring with 5CC A Lobelia is a bad idea, especially against the likes of Noel or Lambda who just can 3C under the Lobelia. 2A and 6B: main pokes Mentioning some stuff might be worth doing, I suppose, like 3C 236A enders being very unsafe at point blank. 5CC as a blockstring ender is rarely a good idea. The only benefit you get from it is primer break. Winded techs will be in the defense section already. That said, all of the mentioned stuff here can be fitted into other parts of the video already. ie: 236A goes with 236A explanation, 5CC goes with 5CC explanation, and winded techs go in the defense section. Lobelias being very risky in some matchups can be mentioned in tools/"how to play" section. Edited October 2, 2011 by Tari
KoopaDoopa Posted October 2, 2011 Posted October 2, 2011 Alright, check the second post and let me know any revisions/additions you guys want to make to the list. 6C and j.[C] don't have anything written for them yet, and everything below j.[C] has nothing written yet either. Feel free to cut stuff from this. 6C- Mainly used in combos to corner carry a midscreen opponent with 5/6D; can be extended with 8D. Can be used situationally in blockstrings with Sword Iris whiff, however it can be mashed out if read. Special cancellable and gatlings to j.C and j.2C on hit/block. On CH, links to 5A. j.[C]- Causes Rachel to float slowly downward after j.C. Extends air combos windless. Can be airdash-cancelled and cancellable into any air move. Used situationally in mixup with George. Video for reference
Tari Posted October 3, 2011 Author Posted October 3, 2011 I took out the part about iris whiff in the 6C part. We can mention that in the video, though. I just wasn't sure how to word it and not make it sound like 6C was unsafe in blockstrings all the time without making the text significantly longer.
kirbster Posted October 3, 2011 Posted October 3, 2011 Ok well if you want the tl;dr version : 6b - Good long range poke, great blockstring/combo filler, jump cancellable. On CH, causes groundslide that can be combo'd after with wind if you're really fast.
Tari Posted October 5, 2011 Author Posted October 5, 2011 Need to fill in the tools and get some discussion on what to put into "how to play". Hopefully we can finish this up in the next week or so, because any later than that and none of us will care anymore. /cough
Kuuhaku Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 I took out the part about iris whiff in the 6C part. We can mention that in the video, though. I just wasn't sure how to word it and not make it sound like 6C was unsafe in blockstrings all the time without making the text significantly longer. Can help- 6C is Rachel's only plus on block normal.
Kuuhaku Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) j.2C (L1)- Can be used for pressure/combo filler or as a standard air combo ender for knock down. Landing recovery can be cancelled into normals. j.2C (L2)- Used primarily for adding damage to meterless combos. Ground bounces. j.2C (L3)- Will always Fatal Counter. Used primarily for adding a lot of damage in metered combos. Ground bounces and is extremely untechable. Impish Gysophillia- Will become active and move in any direction Sylpheed is blowing. It will disappear over time. It will also disappear if the opponent is hit or blocks it three times. It will disappear if Rachel is hit, blocks an attack, or her or her opponent tech a throw. Easily Rachel's best and most versatile zoning tool. However, it can be difficult to summon and keep out. George XIII- Used to extend combos, build meter, and to keep the opponent in block stun to continue pressure. Has his own HP and can take damage separately from Rachel. He will disappear if his HP runs out, if he attacks, or after a certain period of time. He will also disappear if Rachel is hit. Once he disappears Rachel may not summon him until her frog gauge is replenished. George will also slide towards the opponent if wind is used. A Tiny Lobelia- Can be used to end block strings. Unsafe at close distances, but extremely plus at max distance. B Tiny Lobelia- Can be used as a standard zoning tool. Recovery is long so opponents can run under it if it is used poorly. In some situations can be used as an anti-air. C Tiny Lobelia- Used for full screen zoning. Also has long recovery like B Tiny Lobelia. A Air Tiny Lobelia- Can be used as an air to air in some situations. Shoots the longest of Rachel's cannons. B Air Tiny Lobelia- Can be used for air to ground zoning. Recovery is long. C Air Tiny Lobelia- Can be used for air to ground zoning. Recovery is long. Sword Iris- Can be used to stop opponents approaches, continue pressure, and extend combos. Air Sword Iris- More plus than the ground version. Serves much of the same purpose as the ground version, but is more versatile as Rachel can move with wind while activating it. Sylpheed- Rachel's drive. Wind blows across the screen. Use directional inputs to change the direction of the wind. Wind is used to move Rachel, her tools, and her opponent. It is useful in all situations of Rachel's gameplay. She has a 4 stock meter which will refill as long as Rachel is on the ground. Edited October 5, 2011 by Bohemian Polka
Kuuhaku Posted October 5, 2011 Posted October 5, 2011 Neutral Gameplay There are a few things you can do at neutral as Rachel. Rachel's normals are very short, but 2A/6B/5B decent for for spacing. However, generally you want to get the opponent to start blocking so you can get out pumpkin/george safely. One way to do this is to set out lightning rods or get your opponent to block a rod/cannon. Keeping your tools out helps you to control space on the screen. From there you can decide to use them defensively or offensively depending on the situation. General Tip- Try to get a feel of what your opponent likes to do and plan accordingly. Managing your resources is also very important as misusing your them will make your gameplay much less effective. Depending on the match up, it might be better to focus on rushdown/zoning or capitalizing on both to make your opponent as frustrated as possible. You're doing things right when you're able to use your tools to force your opponent to make a mistake.
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