[Accent Core] Order-Sol General Discussion

[reaVer]

If you get ched out of 5k by pot's 2h, you have bigger problems then SVing too much.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nobiru is one of those eddie moves where little eddie shields big eddie. And in the event that eddie zones you with nobiru and waits to apply pressure after you block it and you sv it... you're looking at a beastly punishing combo. While blocking nobiru can in many cases lead to an unblockable, your chances of getting out of the guard string leading to the unblockable are much more risk/reward friendly than blatantly dping a nobiru. It's kind of like when you're waking up into Pot superjump pressure. Sure, he might not block once he lands, but what if you sv.... and he does? Thats when you're going to get ch2hed. Poking out of pot strings with 5k is kind of a bad idea since his tick throw will invincable through it(even if poorly timed) and you kicking rids you of your throw invulnerablity from blocking(jp being the proper way to get out of something like that, or jh if you feel a pot buster comming really bad).

Also, if I happen to be being an idiot and saying nobiru is one of those eddie attacks you cant sv when it *is* one of the ones with little eddie invulnerability, feel free to make me feel like an idion

edit: Checked frame data. Running up and sving against eddie when he has little eddie out is officially suicide. If for some reason he tries to zone you out by summoninginto nobiru, he would get pretty rocked, but that would be a retarded move in the first place. There is a 6f window of little eddie invulnerablity, but it takes place 26 frames into the move, so probably if you blocked it and then dped you might be able to hit eddie I guess, but eddie is usually not all that close after nobiru being blocked so thats probably a bad plan too.

It can happen you get CH'ed like that, the chances of that specific case are very low. But OS himself thrives on people itching to interrupt him with such normals and several other characters can also be very painful if they stuff you with the right normal. If you SV however, your opponent can't stuff you, he has to either low-profile or guard. Out of the two, low profile isn't very common and most characters that have em have certain risks to them as well, Sol for example needs to cancel 2D or he'll lose his offense and you can reversal l3brp/fafnir his ass for trying it. The other option which most other characters are stuck with is guard and punish, which means they have to drop whatever they are doing because they expect you to SV. Their entire offense ended at that point.

The post-active CH state on SV only activates after pressing the D button, so if he punishes you with 2H after you killed off little Eddie doing a nobiru and you didn't attempt to AC, it will be the worst punisher ever. The same goes against Potemkin and Slayer(though Slayer can get some decent tensionless damage). So to get proper damage out of a SV without AC, they'd have to let you land first so you can't get out. Which against Potemkin means a potbuster(which he would've been doing anyways), against Slayer the famous very long combo using either BBU or sweep RC and Eddie will then get you into knockdown where he can either attempt a H-drill unblockable or if he still has little Eddie can attempt a mawaru loop.

Nobiru has 6 frames of invulnerability, SV has 12, you will beat nobiru most of the time with your SV and as I stated above, if you didn't AC where Eddie would hope you did, you're taking minor damage. The case where you can hit bother little Eddie and Eddie himself is at the moment he summons nobiru or when little Eddie is in that sort of range and Eddie is above the ground. After guarding nobiru, which you'll have to in nearly any other scenario Eddie kind of has you where he'd want you. To prevent you from jumping away or hopping right over to imprint that j.H into his face he'll be likely to poke you with something like 5S or 2S and then he hopes to get the mawaru in where he can pretty much do with you whatever he wants. So if you SV right after guarding nobiru you tend to CH Eddie for putting out one of his pokes and that means knockdown -> your offense. Yes, there's this painful thing in case he didn't, but that's the game.

You can of course decide to just guard the nobiru, get yourself stuck into mawaru loop, get mixed up, get set up for 2 unblockables, get dizzied and perhaps eat another combo with unblockable. Then you die, but at least you didn't SV!

[WUT]

a CH Lvl2 SV in the corner accomplishes the same thing when you're looking for a combo, but that's not the point.

I didn't mean that SV in response to tick throws or as a counterpoke should be considered offensive; I just lumped them in with the other reasons as one big "don't SV" list. Sorry for the confusion.

SV against Eddie = ridiculous. As stated, the only time to SV is in between hits of Mawaru little eddie's -K-), or against puddle unblockable. In Mawaru's case, If he baits it, you either eat Nobiru (little eddie -S), or a potential CH 6P combo, either of which puts you one step closer to being dizzy and giving him a free win. And you don't always need to SV in between Mawaru's hits; you need to alternate with backdashing and poking (if Eddie hesitates, 5P/2P/5K kills little eddie for free and lets you gatling into other pokes or special cancel) so Eddie can't bait you. Eddie *can* punish every attempt to escape, whether it be backdash or poke, but he has to commit himself to not mixing you up. It's pretty nice.

When it comes to puddle unblockable, you should always try to reversal DP. In the end, you end up taking less damage, even if he successfully baits and punishes your SV.

Pot buster is vulnerable on the first two frames; faster than any of your pokes, but still "punishable" if he fucks up the timing while going for a tick throw. Aside from BDC bite, every other tick command throw you can poke out of.

Defensive SV is still riskier than poking normally or trying to escape. You always run the risk of being baited for a punish if you SV any sort of frame traps, as they can simply guard instead of attack. Of course, opting to do this carries its own set of circumstances, but we're treading into hardcore theory fighting there.

Now, if you create a situation where SV is an option then it's a viable alternative. IB -> SV and SB -> SV work fine if you need the invincibility for those first 3 frames to get through an attack.

EDIT: reaVer:

1: Low profile and fast pokes run rampant when it comes to frame traps and pressure. Jam comes to mind as someone you should never SV against defensively; there's always a better option.

2: SV still has CH frames at the end, AC or not.

3: Math time! After summoning, Nobiru comes out in 9 frames and is invincible from frames 15-21. This means he has to throw Nobiru first (not a big deal, as it starts his offense) and you have 3 frames to kill it before the invincibility kicks in. You can't reaction that.

4: Let's be reasonable. You, as a competative player, simply cannot always force someone to stop and bait SV every time they go on the offensive. It's just not practical. You'll lose way too many matches and get punished too often just from trying to instill that fear of SV into them. The risk/reward never tips in your favor until you play a looooooooong set with them, and that's not how the competative scene is designed. You only get 6 rounds at max during a round; if you spend 5 of them playing the "oh am I going to SV" mindgame then you severly limit your options for that last, crucial round.

[reaVer]

Wrong. At best you'll be able to kill Shadow, but Eddie can then normally block and punish you.

MATH TIME! 38(summon frames)-12(SV startup frames) = 26 frames where OS can hit Eddie. And all those frames he hits for CH. Now if we add the 8 frames from the second hit of SV we get 18 frames. Which regardless of hitstop still leaves room to hit Eddie. Now something that would be food for thought is how much hitstop OS receives against him when hitting little Eddie.

2H always combos intro FB drill, if you AC or not. Sometimes you just have to delay a bit. Oh, and nubiru combos on normal hit too.

No it does not, you'd need to delay 2H and wait for OS to drop a significant amount which would mean you'd miss the AC FRC moment. Nobiru only combos in the corner because the opponent can tech right after the wallbounce.

[Champion]

]MATH TIME! 38(summon frames)-12(SV startup frames) = 26 frames where OS can hit Eddie. And all those frames he hits for CH.

If Nubiru is done early enough (not when HOS is already in your face), that can't happen. You won't really be doing it when he's 2 inches away from you. And you can only hit Eddie on startup, otherwise you'll only kill Shadow and he'll block the rest. Do some testing.

No it does not, you'd need to delay 2H and wait for OS to drop a significant amount which would mean you'd miss the AC FRC moment. Nobiru only combos in the corner because the opponent can tech right after the wallbounce.

No, you delay the FB drill, not the 2H itself. And even if you wait a bit more, you still won't miss the AC FRC moment. It's pretty easy.

And again, Nubiru does combo on normal hit. From a low bounce you do dashing j.k,j.h,j.d -> nubiru -> sj (j.h),j.d and from a high bounce you just do a dashing SJ instead. Do some research before you write.

[reaVer]

a CH Lvl2 SV in the corner accomplishes the same thing when you're looking for a combo, but that's not the point.

I didn't mean that SV in response to tick throws or as a counterpoke should be considered offensive; I just lumped them in with the other reasons as one big "don't SV" list. Sorry for the confusion.

SV against Eddie = ridiculous. As stated, the only time to SV is in between hits of Mawaru little eddie's -K-), or against puddle unblockable. In Mawaru's case, If he baits it, you either eat Nobiru (little eddie -S), or a potential CH 6P combo, either of which puts you one step closer to being dizzy and giving him a free win. And you don't always need to SV in between Mawaru's hits; you need to alternate with backdashing and poking (if Eddie hesitates, 5P/2P/5K kills little eddie for free and lets you gatling into other pokes or special cancel) so Eddie can't bait you. Eddie *can* punish every attempt to escape, whether it be backdash or poke, but he has to commit himself to not mixing you up. It's pretty nice.

When it comes to puddle unblockable, you should always try to reversal DP. In the end, you end up taking less damage, even if he successfully baits and punishes your SV.

Again, SV does not leave OS in CH state unless he attempts to AC.

Pot buster is vulnerable on the first two frames; faster than any of your pokes, but still "punishable" if he fucks up the timing while going for a tick throw.Aside from BDC bite, every other tick command throw you can poke out of.

One of Potemkin's counter mixups is hammerfall FRC. And I'm sure you have seen what can come out of that one. It will hurt just as much as a potbuster, unless he has more tension in which case he can hurt you a lot more. Yes you can play that game too, but its still giving Potemkin a decent amount of options to work with.

Defensive SV is still riskier than poking normally or trying to escape. You always run the risk of being baited for a punish if you SV any sort of frame traps, as they can simply guard instead of attack. Of course, opting to do this carries its own set of circumstances, but we're treading into hardcore theory fighting there.

In the entire post you made you omitted this point which was the point I was making. He has to commit to defending, not attacking with a hole in it. And its surprisingly hard for people to hold their offense to bait you. Especially since that if they do nothing they lose their offense. While most other options don't force them to fully commit, they have to here. And yes, if you combine it with the other defensive options you get even better effects. You don't just have to SV all the time, but if you add it to your arsenal of defense effects your backdashes, jumps and guard will work a lot more effectively.

Now, if you create a situation where SV is an option then it's a viable alternative. IB -> SV and SB -> SV work fine if you need the invincibility for those first 3 frames to get through an attack.

If you have l3 at such times, you're not gonna SV, you're gonna l3TR because that takes off half his life.

EDIT: reaVer:

1: Low profile and fast pokes run rampant when it comes to frame traps and pressure. Jam comes to mind as someone you should never SV against defensively; there's always a better option.

If Jam wants to evade your SV she'd have to end up at a certain distance to do her setup, just like most other characters. Instead of SVing after finding out she put herself at bait distance you can FD earlier and she won't be able to hit you with her low profile move. Adding to that come the alternative options which hurt(fafnir and l3BRP).

2: SV still has CH frames at the end, AC or not.

Not enough for your opponent to work with.

3: Math time! After summoning, Nobiru comes out in 9 frames and is invincible from frames 15-21. This means he has to throw Nobiru first (not a big deal, as it starts his offense) and you have 3 frames to kill it before the invincibility kicks in. You can't reaction that.

Ok, so lets think about it, say your SV is inside nobiru invincible frames, we know where the summoner is. Guess what SV will hit if it can't hit nobiru, guess what will happen to the nobiru.

4: Let's be reasonable. You, as a competative player, simply cannot always force someone to stop and bait SV every time they go on the offensive. It's just not practical. You'll lose way too many matches and get punished too often just from trying to instill that fear of SV into them. The risk/reward never tips in your favor until you play a looooooooong set with them, and that's not how the competative scene is designed. You only get 6 rounds at max during a round; if you spend 5 of them playing the "oh am I going to SV" mindgame then you severly limit your options for that last, crucial round.

As a competitive player you have to, if your opponent doesn't think twice about SV he's taking up freedom from places he shouldn't -> he becomes more careless like he would be against characters that have poorer defense than OS. And you don't need to do it for 3 games long or whatever. KZO did it very simple when isa was running for him, SV once, see what he does and in isa's case he threw the switch to "I'm dealing with a moron, SV TIME!". Against Ogawa he used the SVs a lot for just one round just to make sure Ogawa wouldn't try some shit. If you watched the SBO match vs KA2 you can also see that SV isn't his preferred move by a long shot because he kept it back till the end of the second round.

[reaVer]

If Nubiru is done early enough (not when HOS is already in your face), that can't happen. You won't really be doing it when he's 2 inches away from you. And you can only hit Eddie on startup, otherwise you'll only kill Shadow and he'll block the rest. Do some testing.

No, you delay the FB drill, not the 2H itself. And even if you wait a bit more, you still won't miss the AC FRC moment. It's pretty easy.

And again, Nubiru does combo on normal hit. From a low bounce you do dashing j.k,j.h,j.d -> nubiru -> sj (j.h),j.d and from a high bounce you just do a dashing SJ instead. Do some research before you write.

Oh sorry, I guess matchup experience just isn't good enough for you now is it?

[WUT]

One of Potemkin's counter mixups is hammerfall FRC. And I'm sure you have seen what can come out of that one. It will hurt just as much as a potbuster, unless he has more tension in which case he can hurt you a lot more. Yes you can play that game too, but its still giving Potemkin a decent amount of options to work with.

How does this pertain to stopping tick throws and frame traps with SV vs. using other pokes?

In the entire post you made you omitted this point which was the point I was making. He has to commit to defending, not attacking with a hole in it. And its surprisingly hard for people to hold their offense to bait you. Especially since that if they do nothing they lose their offense. While most other options don't force them to fully commit, they have to here. And yes, if you combine it with the other defensive options you get even better effects. You don't just have to SV all the time, but if you add it to your arsenal of defense effects your backdashes, jumps and guard will work a lot more effectively.

Yes, SV a defensive option. It's also one of your more risky options, with little payout.

If you have l3 at such times, you're not gonna SV, you're gonna l3TR because that takes off half his life.

How is this relevant? We're talking about when SV can be used; Lvl3TR is another story.

If Jam wants to evade your SV she'd have to end up at a certain distance to do her setup, just like most other characters. Instead of SVing after finding out she put herself at bait distance you can FD earlier and she won't be able to hit you with her low profile move. Adding to that come the alternative options which hurt(fafnir and l3BRP).

Or she can throw a fast poke. She has plenty. As do various other members of the cast

Ok, so lets think about it, say your SV is inside nobiru invincible frames, we know where the summoner is. Guess what SV will hit if it can't hit nobiru, guess what will happen to the nobiru.

After summon, meaning Eddie just has to release S for Nobiru. Nobiru CH's you the moment you're active, which is when you lose your invincibility (or, in Lvl2/Lvl3 SV's case, you lose your invincibility before Nobiru ends).

As a competitive player you have to, if your opponent doesn't think twice about SV he's taking up freedom from places he shouldn't -> he becomes more careless like he would be against characters that have poorer defense than OS. And you don't need to do it for 3 games long or whatever. KZO did it very simple when isa was running for him, SV once, see what he does and in isa's case he threw the switch to "I'm dealing with a moron, SV TIME!". Against Ogawa he used the SVs a lot for just one round just to make sure Ogawa wouldn't try some shit. If you watched the SBO match vs KA2 you can also see that SV isn't his preferred move by a long shot because he kept it back till the end of the second round.

The japanese don't matter. Stop acting like they do. They're a decent reference tool, but by no means should you base your game on what KZO, Sanma, 0, Yuuki, Kaqn, or the myriad of other japanese players do. Your particular situation is never the same as theirs. Just because KZO's SV worked in a certain situation does not mean yours will; there are plenty of other circumstances going on during any one instance in a match, which culminate from how the rounds are playing out.

SV is nice, but it's not an effective scare tool, you don't get much damage off it without committing both resources and the DP-bait scenario into one attempt, and you have other options. That's all there is to it.

[Champion]

Look you chap, I play Eddie myself and I know the shit I'm writing. And if you think you know your shit because you play vs that Eddie player from your country then you're terribly wrong. Playing vs an Eddie or vs a good Eddie isn't the same, ya know.

[reaVer]

How does this pertain to stopping tick throws and frame traps with SV vs. using other pokes?

Tick throws have counter mixups that work on people trying to interrupt them. SV interrupts with 2 hits defeating both hammerfall and potbuster, a normal poke simply does not.

Yes, SV a defensive option. It's also one of your more risky options, with little payout.

The payout in damage is little, but you gain offense, you get close to your enemy. Damage is just around the corner in those cases.

How is this relevant? We're talking about when SV can be used; Lvl3TR is another story.

You're not gonna SB a 2 hit attack on the first hit and then waste it with a SV. Heck, you're better off SBing the second hit of an attack and then using a regular punisher. Its simply not as rewarding as other options which are at that moment guaranteed hits.

Or she can throw a fast poke. She has plenty. As do various other members of the cast

Yes, mixups exist on both sides.

After summon, meaning Eddie just has to release S for Nobiru. Nobiru CH's you the moment you're active, which is when you lose your invincibility (or, in Lvl2/Lvl3 SV's case, you lose your invincibility before Nobiru ends).

we were talking about the 236S summon, not when Eddie has little Eddie already out. Because doing it there isn't just suicide, if you wanted and were able to hit something your normals/specials/forcebreak could do it.

The japanese don't matter. Stop acting like they do. They're a decent reference tool, but by no means should you base your game on what KZO, Sanma, 0, Yuuki, Kaqn, or the myriad of other japanese players do. Your particular situation is never the same as theirs. Just because KZO's SV worked in a certain situation does not mean yours will; there are plenty of other circumstances going on during any one instance in a match, which culminate from how the rounds are playing out.

So I'm saying that those players make the thing work. I used them as a reference on how they make choices on how to use it. I'm not saying I'm gonna throw one in every single situation they did, but the general mindset behind it still counts, heck it even counts on the higher levels as I illustrated to you. The next Sol I'm facing doesn't have to be one that eats the first SV, so at that point I'll stop doing it in that situation till I see he actually goes forward and tries to capitalize on it.

SV is nice, but it's not an effective scare tool, you don't get much damage off it without committing both resources and the DP-bait scenario into one attempt, and you have other options. That's all there is to it.

If you know how to attack your opponent after you hit one of those, that thing is a scare tool. Its pretty much a drop whatever you were doing, you're going to get raped now tool. You don't get the damage on the first go, you'll get it later on. Also remember that you're not gonna be needing it for a while after so the chances of people getting to read your behavior is smaller. And all this I've said earlier.

Champion: You destroyed your own argument a while ago where you said Eddie shouldn't be doing certain things that actually are up for discussion. My experience deals with the situations discussed here, it doesn't matter whether some noob, Isa or Ogawa is pulling this shit out, the situation remains the same. The guy I play with likes these situations and lets them occur quite often.

[Champion]

I didn't destroy anything at all. If you're referring to the S summon debate, that's simple as day. You can only hit Eddie if Nubiru wasn't out already, otherwise you'll only kill shadow at best and then be opened for punishment like I already said. That's a fact. Now you do your homework.

[Nakkiel]

this board has informed me about SV more than I ever wanted it to

[Hintalove]

Just for the record, I was mainly talking about S eddie when little eddie is already out, because that is the situation you are likely to be in if you are advancing towards eddie from across the screen. And, SV is ch state up until the AC point, with the AC extending the CH state if done. This can be illustrated in Slayer getting ch2s as a punish even when you don't ac frc.

[Destin]

Learn to block the unblockables.

[reaVer]

Just for the record, I was mainly talking about S eddie when little eddie is already out, because that is the situation you are likely to be in if you are advancing towards eddie from across the screen.

And, SV is ch state up until the AC point, with the AC extending the CH state if done. This can be illustrated in Slayer getting ch2s as a punish even when you don't ac frc.

The only moment you'd ever want to advance towards Eddie is when little Eddie isn't out yet. If little Eddie is out let it drain, fake airdashes or running in, making him whiff all that with his little Eddie wasting his meter and get close when he's about to unsummon.

They tested that over at the Slayer forums, Slayer doesn't get a CH 2S if you don't push the AC button. That 2S also hit at the earliest possible moment after guarding. If you look at the frame data you'll also see that SV has no added CH state.

[Sesshyru]

Look you chap, rada rada.

lol.. Chap.. Your all chaps!.. Im such a noughty boy.. NOUGHTY BOY

AHEUAHEUAHEUA

SV is SRS.. SRS BNZ

*Storm Vipers this thread*

[Nakkiel]

*Storm Vipers this thread*

Did you run in and 2HS first?

[Destin]

Say what you will about reaver's combo, but at least he's sticking to his guns. That dp after CH 2h was so reaver I almost clapped.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

ok so now that this string has reached its inevitable retarded end let's talk about something else

[WUT]

ok so now that this string has reached its inevitable retarded end let's talk about something else

Sanma Vs. FAB from SBO '08: What. The. Crap?

[Hintalove]

Link to a youtube or niconico

[LM_Akira]

Link to a youtube or niconico

I posted it under my fake yt account in the media thread:

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showpost.php?p=329418&postcount=658

I may get around to putting Sekido and 0's matches up from the G3 MAX dvd at some point too.

[Hintalove]

Damn, watching that match lead me to watch the 0 stuff from SBO. The man is a fucking god. No order sol gets close to that level of depth and perfection imo. As for the FAB vs Sanma match, it was basically sanma trying to be in the air and beat out pot stuff with fast normals(preferably unthrowable ones, ie jp). It was working until FAB adjusted to the strategy and then well, we got to witness that last round. Speaking from personal experience, even running away from FAB is scary to do, let alone rush him down. He has next to prefect defense(0 also has very very good defense) and he *will* use what ever you give him. I also like how the 0 clips really capture what I was trying to say when I was talking about how 0 showed me the true path of the l3 savage fang. Makes order sol soooo dangerous.

[reaVer]

0 has a very good game overall, same with KZO imo. Those 2 barely make any mistakes when it comes to playing the game.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Sanma Vs. FAB from SBO '08: What. The. Crap?

lol sanma too fancy and risky for tournaments

[Sesshyru]

Sanma = And1 of GG