[Accent Core] Order-Sol General Discussion

[reaVer]

And no, your tournament play doesn't dictate your level as a player. It shows how well you play under pressure. I know plenty of people that play very effectively but just crack under pressure. Does that mean they're bad at the game? No. It means they suck at tournaments or when the pressure is on. The ability to cope with pressure, coupled with overall match-up experience, are what make you a solid player when it comes to tourny wins.

If you crack under pressure you're simply bad at the game. You can show all sorts of stuff during casuals which would show you're knowledgeable about the game. But in tournament you show what you can actually do, in tournament you prove yourself to others you deserve that number 1 spot.

[Nakkiel]

Cracking under pressure doesn't mean you're bad at the game. Cracking under pressure means you're bad at handling pressure. I don't see how you could derive any other meaning from someone getting the jitters. Getting nervous has absolutely nothing to do with the game itself.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

No, the play that nets you the most victories is the best play. There is no requirement of it being solid.

This is hands-down the most idiotic thing I've ever seen you post.

Solid play is what gets you CONSISTENT wins. The ability to take one match off of a gimmick or playing like an idiot is rarely relevant.

As for the talk of pressure/tournaments; if you can't play well under pressure, then as a competitive player, how good could you possibly be? The players who are able to keep their cool when something is on the line are the ones that matter. Your ability to play in a casual environment be damned, if you can't pull off the stuff that gets you wins when you are in a competitive atmosphere, you need to step it up.

[reaVer]

This is hands-down the most idiotic thing I've ever seen you post.

Solid play is what gets you CONSISTENT wins. The ability to take one match off of a gimmick or playing like an idiot is rarely relevant.

Re-read what I wrote you idiot. I said:

THE PLAY THAT NETS YOU THE _MOST_ VICTORIES IS THE BEST PLAY. How the fuck can 1 victory be the best strategy? Seriously...

It doesn't always have to be the case that solid play gets you victories, some times you need to loosen up on the solidness to get yourself the win you need. Its the dynamic responses that are worth a lot more than just being solid.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

"There is no requirement of it being solid" "The play that nets you the most victories is the best play" Let me educate your stupid ass. It is IMPOSSIBLE to always pick the winning strategy, unless the winning strategy is just THAT obvious, in which case you are playing a bad game usually. The best you can do is 1)minimize the things that might cause you to lose (ie not giving it away by making dumb mistakes) and 2)read your opponent as best you can to make the right decisions. Condition 1 necessitates SOLID PLAY. You seem to think solid means inflexible. It doesn't. It just means no glaring weaknesses or openings, no rookie mistakes, no throwing the match away. The context I was speaking within as regards to watching matches is that a solid match where nothing too amazing happens is still a great match since both players are fighting their hardest and nobody wins or loses on some silly mistake. Thus to say that winning consistently does not require one to be solid is something only a scrubass fucktard like you would say. Condition 2 is impossible to guarantee every time because your opponent is a living breathing person and no one is fucking psychic. It's not possible to make the right decision every time because you're not going to know what that right decision was EVERY TIME, assuming you're fighting someone your equal or your better. Even then, you can do what might be considered the most right thing to do in any scenario and STILL LOSE because you got out-thought. Shit happens like that. This is why all the criticism and advice you offer on here is so worthless as you always use hindsight when watching vids and say something like "omg it was so obvious he was gonna do that I would have just SVed or *insert risky move here*!" You don't get it and you probably never will at this rate.

[reaVer]

"There is no requirement of it being solid"

"The play that nets you the most victories is the best play"

Let me educate your stupid ass. It is IMPOSSIBLE to always pick the winning strategy, unless the winning strategy is just THAT obvious, in which case you are playing a bad game usually. The best you can do is 1)minimize the things that might cause you to lose (ie not giving it away by making dumb mistakes) and 2)read your opponent as best you can to make the right decisions.

Correct, it is impossible to always pick the winning strategy, hence even the best players lose matches. Its the basic idea of the game.

Now, minimize the things that cause you to lose, in other words, making sure you reach the 420 life point mark before your opponent does. Methods of reaching the 420 life point mark:

1. Outdefend your opponent making sure he barely does any damage to you.

2. Outdamage your opponent allowing him to damage you but not enough for him to win.

Condition 1 necessitates SOLID PLAY. You seem to think solid means inflexible. It doesn't. It just means no glaring weaknesses or openings, no rookie mistakes, no throwing the match away. The context I was speaking within as regards to watching matches is that a solid match where nothing too amazing happens is still a great match since both players are fighting their hardest and nobody wins or loses on some silly mistake. Thus to say that winning consistently does not require one to be solid is something only a scrubass fucktard like you would say.

This would just be 1, this is actually KZO's style and is my own favored style.

Now the part you neglected to mention was what 0 was and still is using, doing more damage. You can take the damage sacrifices as long as you do more damage, 0 relied on this for a really long while and the primary reason he ate that damage was because he was doing unsafe charging. Its not solid, but it gets the job done. I do have to add that recently 0's defense/solidness improved a lot(as I have mentioned earlier). Not only 0 plays like this, Sanma also favors this kind of play.

Condition 2 is impossible to guarantee every time because your opponent is a living breathing person and no one is fucking psychic. It's not possible to make the right decision every time because you're not going to know what that right decision was EVERY TIME, assuming you're fighting someone your equal or your better. Even then, you can do what might be considered the most right thing to do in any scenario and STILL LOSE because you got out-thought. Shit happens like that.

The you have it OUT-THINKING, you need to out-think HIM and make sure he doesn't do that to you. Out-thinking doesn't just mean making the right decision every time, well it does; but that's impossible since we're dealing with breathing mammals, what's more important is making the wrong choices you made earlier work for you. And that's why I said that the solid choice doesn't always have to work for you, your opponent can expect it, counter it with which probably is a non-solid option. And you could be like "He can do it only once", yeah, but he took someone's life down the drain that one time and sealed off any further attempt(unless you want to eat the damage again of course!).

This is why all the criticism and advice you offer on here is so worthless as you always use hindsight when watching vids and say something like "omg it was so obvious he was gonna do that I would have just SVed or *insert risky move here*!" You don't get it and you probably never will at this rate.

I use both hindsight and foresight when watching vids. Especially with my own I use hindsight as that helps me improve. And it isn't stuff that's 50/50 like "I shouldn't have tried to jump over a poke that one time cuz I ended up eating the AA" but more like "I should've SV'ed that moment to deal with both his AA and his poke" or "I should've used the corner GB combo to avoid the burst". Foresight I use when watching other people's vids, what should they be seeing, what did they see and afterward I might take a hindsight look to see what the other options were as to why they would make a specific choice.

[Destin]

And no, your tournament play doesn't dictate your level as a player. It shows how well you play under pressure. I know plenty of people that play very effectively but just crack under pressure. Does that mean they're bad at the game? No. It means they suck at tournaments or when the pressure is on. The ability to cope with pressure, coupled with overall match-up experience, are what make you a solid player when it comes to tourny wins.

I like to judge people when they are playing their best. A bunch of tournament wins does not impress me, playing some rounds very well does, wherever they are at.

Oh just read more of the thread, nobody has ever proven shit to me by winning a tournament, or even a few of them.

[Hintalove]

There is a reason there is only one video of KZO sving a top tier player into oblivion. A very good reason.

[reaVer]

There's 2 actually, against isa and against ogawa. And the reason we don't see more is because he doesn't get his stuff recorded:P

[Tsak]

ive seen kzo play against a baiken player beat her 2 str8 using solid play started spamming SV lost 3 str8 very depressing

[WUT]

How do you know that? Do you think he goes up to the tournament directors and says "no pictures, please"? Or that he shoos away the cameras and cell phones any time they get near him? Did he just happen to tell you that he's camera-shy? Why make assumptions like this? It's easier to go with the more logical conclusion: there are thousands of matches taking place, and only the interesting ones get recorded and posted. Something like SV'ing someone repeatedly and it working is funny as hell; if I was Japanese I'd post it. Aside from the vs. Ogawa match, watching KZO is on par to watching some non-Japanese players. It's mediocre at best. And I'm not sure which one you're referring to with Isa: The 23 vs 23 from gamechariot? If that's the one then it isn't the SV spam-a-thon that was KZO vs. Ogawa. KZO did 5 SVs that weren't specifically for combo; 3 hit, 2 didn't. I wouldn't consider that a prime example of SV being particularly effective; merely that KZO happened to hit more SVs than miss them.

[reaVer]

Only a few places post up there vids(in comparison to the amount of arcades there), Vegas for example, has never gotten any vids up despite 0 and lots of others playing there. This can easily be the same for the arcades KZO plays at. And I disagree with that second statement, KZO to me is a very entertaining player because he's very aggressive. I've never seen any non-japanese match where the OS player plays as good as KZO does, this includes your own (and my own for that matter) matches. He didn't do much more against Ogawa, I think its a mere 6 or so, 5 of them in the first round, of which 2 hit, one got stuffed by 2K and the other 2 whiffed. They just seem to happen so often because KZO hit every one of his set ups and raped Ogawa for damage despite screwing up the combo. Vs Sharon was the only time he managed to reach 12 or 13 SVs and vs Bleed he didn't do any at all(and even Sanma cracks in that matchup). It is a prime example of SV being effective because it shows how the move works and how you should apply it(of course you're not gonna do it at the same situations he did it or you're likely to die a horrible death like Yuuki did vs Isa).

[HolyOrderChipp]

The reward of SV is not worth the risk divided by the chance of success. End of story. Also, WUT, MS Paint Adventures is amazing. But you know that, because you've got Ace Dick in your avatar. Finally, reaVer, you're right about not being a good competitive player if you crack under pressure... But then, you crack under pressure. (I love owning reaVer. So damn much fun.)

[reaVer]

So that leads to the conclusion I'm not a good player... And?

[Sesshyru]

MS Paint adventures?

[Hintalove]

I have a new pet gimick this week. On people that aren't going to dp in every 1f window you give them(there are better ways to punish preidicted and baited dps), doing an earlyish js or jh and after your opponent blocks land and 6k. Pretty basic and on block it doesn't really get you any where, but I was really surprised how many people got staggered by it, especially as an oki setup.

[Honnou]

best OS is hintalove, raped that FAB right proper I'm sure theres something better to discuss than whether or not KZO is good.

[reaVer]

I have a new pet gimick this week. On people that aren't going to dp in every 1f window you give them(there are better ways to punish preidicted and baited dps), doing an earlyish js or jh and after your opponent blocks land and 6k. Pretty basic and on block it doesn't really get you any where, but I was really surprised how many people got staggered by it, especially as an oki setup.

Knew that one XD Keep forgetting to do it though.

[WUT]

I've been tinkering around with a few new oki setups. It's all theory fighter for the moment until I can play a few games vs. people I don't casual with to see how viable they are. Needless to say, the potential is amazing. On that note: anyone trying or seeing anything new lately?

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Not many people play GG around here these days, all SF4 and whatnot. Doesn't give me much chance to practice anything.

[Hintalove]

New oki wise??? Not really. Order Sol okizeme is pretty basic for the most part, with out much room for expansion. I think the fanciest set up possible to him is a short(very short) running gattling into sweep into brp(cross up) and then brp frc into your meaty. The worst part about that is setting that mixup up is too pricey damage wise most of the time :/ And it doesn't hit people with fat otg hitboxes. What are these new tricks you're developing? Unless they are super gimicky posting them up wont make them any easier to block.

[WUT]

I'll explain the premise. The oki setup is a midscreen gatling string into 2D xx CC, wait a few frames, Lvl2 GB. If I'm doing the math correctly and you hit the second pillar of flame on the last active frame, you can have up to +32 frame advantage, meaning a 5D/2HS is completely safe. Even another GB is completely safe, but won't cross up unless they try to FD (they're still in guard stun, unless you wait, but you risk being thrown at that point). The other interesting part is that if you AC the Lvl2 GB as soon as possible (again, assuming my math is correct), you will be at neutral ground, assuming max frame advantage (can AC 2F after second pillar is active, AC is 30F). This, coupled with the fact that Lvl2 GB sucks them into you, can lead to a decent throw bait setup with 6K (if the math is correct they have 1F to throw you before you can 6K, but honestly, who is used to the guard stun of a Lvl2 GB?). Yet ANOTHER application is corner oki. A 2D xx CC, Lvl2 GB actually pulls them OUT of the corner. I've been trying to dabble with a cross-up j.K at this point (jumping back after the Lvl2 GB recovery ends), but the guard stun sorta ruins that. You can still force a fuzzy guard if you do it right, however. This is on top of all the perks previously mentioned midscreen. Problems with this setup are the Charge required (although you spend 25% and Charge on a 2D XX Lvl1 GB, AC FRC Lvl2 GB mixup, which I see regularly), and the potential fail if my math is wrong. The midscreen Lvl2 GB won't cross-up unless they FD it to begin with, and the timing involved in hitting the Lvl2 GB late but not too late(meaning not OTG'ing yet not whiffing completely on their wakeup) isn't consistent; you have to play with it to get a feel for it.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

What's this? Ryan-Bill, using any version of GB other than level 1? Next thing you know, pigs will be flying.

[WUT]

What's this? Ryan-Bill, using any version of GB other than level 1? Next thing you know, pigs will be flying.

I lol'd. I've been trying to think of a decent use for Lvl2 GB for the longest time. 2D xx Lvl1 GB AC FRC Lvl2 GB was just too expensive for my tastes.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I really wish people still played this game around here so I could keep leveling up. Last time I played Matt in tournament was so ridiculous, down to the wire. I've been laying off the lvl2 GB myself lately. It's really great when it happens to hit and on less experienced players, you'll hit it a lot more than normal. It's also pretty good on block. But on really defensive players, I don't like using the charge up in that way.