[CSE] Tsubaki vs Tager

[pktazn]

Thanks for the advice guys, I'll keep these in mind as well as the earlier posts next time I go against him

[Airk]

If Tager is throwing out random sledges to try to close the distance (not sure if that's what you're describing or not) then, well, Sledge is crazy slow and you should be able to 214X (or 236X) it on reaction. Or just 5B in the face.

[Kiba]

And so here unfolds another story.

At Neutral:

At the beginning of the round, back away and acquire stock, whilst keeping an eye in the space between both of you. You want in a range where none of his attacks can reach you. Me personally, I stay within his 2D range because I don't like him charging while I am (lol). If does charge, I can run up and throw which would give me a throw counter if I've got the spacing right. As he is approaching you, you'd want to either back away some more or space with max range 5B pokes with a jump cancel. When you're going too close to the corner, you need to jump over him or you need to fish for unblockables to prevent that situation. At times you may want to release it early too. If he gets hit with an unblockable, it can result in an unblockable vortex since he can be trapped in the corner. Don't get overconfident with unblockables though. If you don't fully charge it, it's punishable, especially if you're not doing it at max range. Alternatively, Tager can jump and use j.C > combo to get you magged and onto the defensive, which is not the position you want to be in.

If Tager is trying to approach you with Sledge, it would be more advisable to retreat rather than try to contend with it. The fact that it can be charged makes it too difficult to determine when the player will release it. You can avoid it by high jumping and using j.214C to get past him, or by going back to the other side of the screen and use an unblockable to counter the charge if he gets within range. If he tries to approach you with 2D, you can use 22A to punish, or use the easier method to jump over and retaliate with j.C > 5B/5C > combo. An easier method would be backdash if you're out of range and then quickly punish the recovery. Remember that you don't not want to get hit by 2D, even on block. He can beat your backdashes with 5C, he an beat your pokes with a 360, and if the Tager has really good yomi, they can use AC or try to throw you if you jump. 5A can also prevent you from jumping too. If Tager tries to high jump at you, remember you follow either of the rules:

• Jump up and grab him, but can lose to his j.2C, and he can tech the grab. Guaranteed corner carry for you.
  
• AA him with 2C, but loses to j.2C. Guaranteed corner carry for you.
  
• Run underneath him and acquire more stock, which keeps you at neutral, and Tager has to play cat and mouse again.
  
  
  Another thing to note. Don't challenge his 5D. It has too many active frames, and can result in him getting CH. You can 22A him from max distance but even then it's risky. If he does 5D > B sledge (non charged), provided that you IB'd 5D, you can throw him out of sledge, or hit him out of it by using 5A > 5B/5C > combo. If he has a spark bolt, be careful with backdashing, and try not to be so fast in approaching him 5B. Remember too that if you're slightly out of range, his 5C can beat 5B, and you will get magged.
  
  
  Pressure wise:
  
  Holes in your pressure allow Tager to retaliate with 360s/720s, and if you charge cancel he can usually hit you out of your incoming pressure. This is why any tight gatlings are recommended, such as 5C > 2C, because that allows you to jump away. This is also why I stress the need to only use 5B from max range. alternatively you may want to use 5AAA > throw. If he techs it, no prob, you're near at neutral range again and you can get away easily. If he doesn't, it's usually guaranteed corner carry.
  
  Do not use 2BB, 3C, 6A, 6B or 6C to pressure Tager. 6A/6B/6C can be beaten with a 360/720 since the startup of those moves are quite slow. You can be thrown out of 3C, and it's not safe unless you have heat. 2BB also has a gap and can be thrown out of with a 360/720 on IB. If you use a normal which isn't jump - cancellable, make sure you charge cancel it.
  
  Definately do not use 236X (even 236D) / 214X (when not spaced right). All of them can be beaten with a 360. 236D Into either 214D or 22D can be beaten even if it's immediate. This is why I stress that you should be pressuring with 22B/C/D and 5B.
  
  
  Regarding Getting Hit:
  
  Damn. Tager has many tech traps which can easily beat your bursts by using 214D to charge as it guard points projectiles, so don't be reckless, nor predictable. MTW will beat your bursts, included gold bursts on your wakeup so be careful how you plan things. I usually don't burst, but a good time to burst would usually be somewhere before you get magged.
  
  He can also go for AC resets which can catch you if you tech wrongly in combos when you're in the air. The way to beat this is to not tech. Using AC twice is heavy proration for Tager which will usually allow you to roll out before his next attack. The more risky thing to do would be delay your tech and then retaliate with j.C. If you tech too early, you may still get grabbed out of it because of the invincibility frames that AC possesses. Tager may also use another known tech trap e.g he does 5D > AC. If you tech during AC you'll be dragged closer to him and then he can then easily 360/720 you for free. Really, the way to go about things is not to tech at all. The worst you will get is a purple throw.
  
  
  Regarding blocking
  
  Remember not to get careful with 623A. Alot of his normals can incidentally beat it, and he can sledge through it for free since it's a projectile. 623D is better, but then if he blocks that he can sledge through the incoming of your next attacks. If you use j.214D, he can throw you for free, and if you use j.236D, he can sledge to get in. If you use the j.236D > j.214D followup, it can be beaten with sledge or 2C. It's still a projectile. The way I go about blocking his stuff, is IB'ing and looking for the main holes to DP him with 623D. That would be anything into a drive (excluding 4D) or into 236B, regardless of whether it's charged or not.
  
  Watch the spacing between you two too. He can whiff fast recovery normals such as 2B and then use a 360 to grab you. At those moments, perform a back dash in the air. Other than that you shouldn't be blocking for too long against Tager, and if you are, likely case is that you're gonna get magged.
  
  
  
  Whilst Magged
  
  Fuck. He may try to drag you in repeatedly with 4D/5D, this is the time you'd usually be backdashing a hell of a lot more, or if he's getting too carried away you can use 22A if you're brave. More importantly, be careful with moving in the air, since he can usually use AC to get you in. If he tries to use 6A to drag you in, please use 3C. You'll score a fatal for free. Tager shouldn't be using that against Tsubaki anyway unless he has a deathwish.
  
  After Gadget Finger, that's where the nonsense comes in. It becomes a huge guessing game.
  
  
  
  
  • His 5C can catch your backdash
    
  • His 5A can stop you in some cases from jumping and you'll get caught in another combo
    
  • 360/MTW beats all your pressure attempts
    
  • 360 is there for when you actually decide to do nothing, lol.
    
  • Air throws and AC can also beat your jump attempts.
    
  • MTW and his charge will beat your burst attempts.
    

  As Ginseng said 2 years ago, you usually just have to accept whatever is going to get thrown at you. If you have heat for mugen though, that may be a viable option if you're really scared, as you can just DP his options. Remember MTW can beat the DP however. Be very mindful.

  For visual aid:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THfCCLYNDOo

Edited February 6, 2012 by Kiba

[Airk]

So in a nutshell, this matchup has gone from "Annoying, but doesn't suck too much because Tager is bad." to "Completely sucks and if you're not running away all the time, you lose"?

That's what all the advice there seemed to boil down to: How to keep Tager away, or how to run away. The only times you get damage are if he gets frustrated and does something stupid. It's like... Tager vs Hazama only backwards.

Edit: Oh, and be advised that Tager can IB > 720 you out of 3C>3CC

Edited February 6, 2012 by Airk

[BatousaiJ]

Good read Kiba.

Watching that match reminds me how safe you play compared to me.

I really ought to follow your lead sometime and stop dropping games here and there to inferior Tagers players randoming me out now and then because I like pushing my luck and playing recklessly.

[Kiba]

So in a nutshell, this matchup has gone from "Annoying, but doesn't suck too much because Tager is bad." to "Completely sucks and if you're not running away all the time, you lose"?

Edit: Oh, and be advised that Tager can IB > 720 you out of 3C>3CC

It's a dry matchup, and it's basically boils down to you having to play really safe. That's it in a nutshell.

I figured 3CC could be IB'd and punished. Thanks for the confirmation.

Good read Kiba.

Watching that match reminds me how safe you play compared to me.

I really ought to follow your lead sometime and stop dropping games here and there to inferior Tagers players randoming me out now and then because I like pushing my luck and playing recklessly.

Thanks.

Honestly though, I don't completely enjoy playing like that, but I just can't fully rush him down. As time passes I just grow a little bored, so I actually start playing a little reckless myself haha. There are even troll moments in the matches. You may see them in the up coming matches that are on the way.

I also forgot to mention. Don't use j.CC(delay) blockstrings on him alot. If he IBs the first hit, he can backdash the 2nd hit which will case the j.CC to whiff, and then he can 360 you.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Kiba

[Airk]

Don't use j.CC(delay) blockstrings on him alot. If he IBs the first hit, he can backdash the 2nd hit which will case the j.CC to whiff, and then he can 360 you.

This...shouldn't work if you just hold 7/8/9 to jump again if you see him backdashing your j.CC. There's no landing recovery on it, so you should be able to become unthrowable again immediately. Er, I guess unless you're required to be on the ground for X frames or something between jumps? Anyone know? This game doesn't have "landing frames" as far as I know.

Also, I think you're respecting IB>360A a bit too much. IBC>720 is very strong, but 360A's delay before invulnerability means it doesn't work as well.

On the other hand, if you're unwilling to stand on the ground in front of Tager ever, then 5B/2A/5A are pretty much the only moves you should be using, and you should never gatling to anything. @_@

This matchup is stupid. -_-

[Kiba]

This...shouldn't work if you just hold 7/8/9 to jump again if you see him backdashing your j.CC. There's no landing recovery on it, so you should be able to become unthrowable again immediately. Er, I guess unless you're required to be on the ground for X frames or something between jumps? Anyone know? This game doesn't have "landing frames" as far as I know.

Also, I think you're respecting IB>360A a bit too much. IBC>720 is very strong, but 360A's delay before invulnerability means it doesn't work as well.

He can use 360B instead which will catch you.

Maybe I am being too respectful for IB - 360A, but I don't want to be thrown, so I'm not going to take alot of risks.

[Airk]

He can use 360B instead which will catch you.

Then there must be some sort of "landing" time or something where you can't re-jump, because otherwise, you land, holding up, and immediately go back into jump startup and become unthrowable.

Sorry; This doesn't really have anything to do with the matchup, it's just me continuing my quest to figure out how All The Things work in this game.

[Mucky]

Then there must be some sort of "landing" time or something where you can't re-jump, because otherwise, you land, holding up, and immediately go back into jump startup and become unthrowable.

There is. Go into training mode and have Tager hold 720 as you're coming down from a jump and try to jump out of it. I'm told there's a specific timing to jump out of a held 720, but you can't get it just from holding up. 720 will grab you at the first possible frame. 360B also works this way when held.

[Errol]

yeah, there is some kind of penalty on landing. I'm not sure how it works though, but I think there's also a penalty if you're air barriering and land. I don't think I'm imagining it, I think I remember getting hit by sparkbolt as a result of the landing penalty from air barriering.. well, it's been so long. Sound familiar?

[Mucky]

yeah, there is some kind of penalty on landing. I'm not sure how it works though, but I think there's also a penalty if you're air barriering and land. I don't think I'm imagining it, I think I remember getting hit by sparkbolt as a result of the landing penalty from air barriering.. well, it's been so long. Sound familiar?

I've... never heard of that.

Also, I'm convinced that no special timing for jumping out of a 720 exists. 0 out of 387538 attempts.

Safe to say, if you land into a 720/360B you're going to eat it.

[Rhiya]

IT's called BB hates good mixup.

It's also why Ragna j.D whiff is retardedly good

[Airk]

There is. Go into training mode and have Tager hold 720 as you're coming down from a jump and try to jump out of it. I'm told there's a specific timing to jump out of a held 720, but you can't get it just from holding up. 720 will grab you at the first possible frame. 360B also works this way when held.

Huh. And did you test this with doing some sort of attack, or just empty jumps?

My theory at this point is that you are required to be on the ground (and can BLOCK - you're not in "recovery" per se) for 1 frame between jumps, and that one frame is long enough for Tager to grab you and take you for a ride. And then moves with "landing recovery" actually put you on the ground unable to act at all for X frames.

What happens if you land and immediately DP? Can you do a frame 1 invulnerable move to avoid 'landing in' a 720?

(I would check this myself, but I'm at work.)

[CrescentSaber]

Damn. Looks like I got some work to do if I wanna win against Tager. This match up has always given me trouble. Grapplers in general give me issues no matter what the game.

But that is interesting about the jump thing. Also I THINK that immediately landing and doing the DP works but I'm not sure. I've had instances that my DP beat out his command grab but then I've been grabbed out of my DP sometimes too.

I hate Tager.

[Kiba]

Hm.

214D can beat his 5D but you have to do it really early (yomi) or you'll lose and he'll score a CH.

236D can beat charged sledge.

[BatousaiJ]

I've been screwing around in this match up and I feel like whenever I try to get some charge anywhere in the screen when I'm magnetized, I get punished for it or he ends up getting in on me a bit too easily.

So instead, whenever I get magnetized, I more or less abandon charging outside of hard knockdowns(very little) or in the middle of a combo.

I adapted the mindset and was able to just stay close to him with annoying jabs and using a lot of j.b(b) shenanigans landing the longest combos possible until magnetism wore off. When it did, I would IAD backwards for some space and immediately began charging for free while he was forced to watch on.

A simple change up to my usual, "I'll get charge whenever I can" but it makes a big difference.

[Errol]

I'll try that. I'm so free to Tager.

I need to stop autopiloting dumb block strings against Tager and get down my spacing on 5b/22d.

236d>anything except 22a/jump/backdash/dp is punishable by a 360b. Risk/Reward is terrible on that, really have to try to use it when you really think you'll get a hit on the 236d. But not sure how much it should be used given how bad it is on block.

[Kiba]

The gameplan that Bat has is good.

236d>anything except 22a/jump/backdash/dp is punishable by a 360b. Risk/Reward is terrible on that, really have to try to use it when you really think you'll get a hit on the 236d. But not sure how much it should be used given how bad it is on block.

I would not recommend you to use 236D at all really because it's far too risky. He could IB 236D and I'm pretty sure he could punish your 22A followup with a 360A. He could even 360B you on IB. I tried jumping away and that didn't work. I wasn't even given the chance, but it really depends on how fast the Tager player is.

[BatousaiJ]

236D was risky in CS2 when it was + in this match up. Now it's just kind of silly to use unless you're calling something out or using it as a mix up tool to go directly into 623D or something afterwards.

5B is still king in this match up. Use it and abuse it.