[CSE] Iron Tager vs Noel: Underaged driving exposed

[A.X.I.S.]

4D is broken.

Ok 4D is annoying but that is not everything in this match up.

Just a new obstacle to overcome and one we should not take lightly.

Objective:

Make her too scared, make her not wanna take risks, hurt her lots, and kill the D button.

Reason:

Noel has great movement and relies on forcing mistakes out of her opponents. Too bad Tager doesn't have to care about that.

Far range:

Avoid optic barrel and VTC, don't sledge the optic barrels, you have no reason too unless you are mid ranged and you are calling it out.

Medium range:

Expect dash 5B and 5C at this range, call out optic barrels if she chooses to do them or just IB them.

Close range:

On the offense don't use anything with big gaps, always end your strings with something safe and use lows liberally.

4D is useful for gaining magnetism, once she is magnetized the threat of 4D is heavily decreased.

4D is a annoying AA but once we block drive Noel will have to go for a drive ender and all of them leaves her at a disadvantage...punish them.

On the Defense she has staggers, now if you don't know this, stagger are something a Tager player should see and punish.

Her frame data says they are safe but Noel commits a lot, her pressure and mix up aren't so great but she will try to surprise you.

strings and pokes:

• 5AxN/5A>dash 5A
  
• 5A>2B>2B
  
• 5A>2C
  
• 5A>2B>2C
  
• 2B>5B>2C
  
• 5B>jump cancel
  
• 5A>6B
  
• 5B>6B
  
• 2B>dash 5A
  
• 5C>6B
  

Special moves she likes to use:

2D:

Used to beat certain hit boxes, lows, and grabs.

Doesn't get a lot of use in this match up since 5A/2A/5C/4D/2D/5D/J.B neuters it. (j.B is very situational.)

Still should be noted since she can call us out with it, not safe on block.

She can actually cross us up with this if she is point blank.

Simple solution to that is to barrier push her away or stand up since the cross up can only be done on crouching opponents.

4D:

The big bad drive now, fatals on counter hit and leads to pain as usual.

It is mid/high invulnerable so it makes for a good anti air and counter poke.

You can grab Noel out of this, hit her with a low, or sledge it, choice is yours.

Muzzle filter:

Noel's 214A, it's a command grab that catches standing opponents.

Excellent mind game for when we want to block overheads or 2D cross ups.

Really punishable on whiff so make her hurt for it.

Other stuff:

4D bodies Noel when she is magnetized.

4D eats all of her drives for free, it kills 3C and 5B when timed right.

It makes her not want to approach when magnetized which is all the more reason to not let her escape.

2D beats her drives as well.

Noel 3C cannot punish 6A or VTC because it's a projectile, you can actually sledge it too.

Noel 3C hits really far and will catch jumps, be wary of it.

Noel 6B has active frames for days, don't mash on her when you wake up, you might just get caught like a deer in headlights.

Noel air grab oki can be reacted to examples:

Noel does combo>6C>air grab and now here where the oki comes in.

You break the grab.

Noel can use thor and catch us mashing something.

Noe can air dash and try to pressure.

Noel can wait then air dash and poke us.

Noel can land and rush.

Now our answer in sequence:

Don't press buttons, you have time to jab a air dash.

Jab the air dash with j.A, if it CH's enjoy your 3K combo.

2A the delay air dash.

React accordingly.

Have fun with that.

Oh if you eat the grab you have to deal with Noel cross unders and you ate extra damage.

Yeah break the grab.

Edited March 20, 2012 by A.X.I.S.

[Mucky]

Man not a single post about this matchup. Time to fix this.

Alright, so I got bodied by a Noel last night, totally was not prepared to deal with her new buffed (why?) 4D.

Here is the frame data for this move as reference:

- 1~19F Head, Body, and Projectile attribute invulnerable

- 25F startup, 7F active

And here is a list of our moves with foot attribute:

-5B

-2A, 2B, 2C, 2D

-3C

-6B, 6C

-Sledgehammer Followup

-Throws

Cutting out the moves that are far too slow to be of any use, we're left with 5B, 2A, 2B, 3C, and throws. 2A isn't a very good ground poke, so that's out. 5B has a better hitbox than 2B for this situation, so take 2B out as well. Throws, well, I don't see how one will work considering 4D makes Noel move away from Tager. After playing around in training mode, 360A will sometimes work without magnetism. On the other hand, magnetized 360A will always work, but then I would have to ask myself, "Why is the noel pressing 4D while magnetized?"

So that's it. 5B/2B, 3C, and 360A are your options for beating 4D. The frame data does imply a 6 frame window where any move (such as 5C) can hit Noel out of 4D, but considering most games are on netplay I wouldn't recommend this.

Overall:

- You can't jump in on Noel. Forget about it. Not even the elbow drop does anything to her 4D.

- When pressuring Noel, do not press 5C, 5D, or 6A. 4D is fine.

- After GF, an option select like 4A is probably the safest thing to do.

- All of your normals which beat her 4D lose to her 2D. Thankfully though your 5A or 2A will stuff her 2D so you have some quick options.

- Don't try to anti-air Noel when she has 50 heat (gotta love how you can't get away with anything in the air yet she can do whatever she wants).

- Apparently, Noel's oki against Tager involves purple air throws, so keep an eye out for them. After teching, don't try to press anything while falling down.

This matchup feels like a kid's game of Rock Paper Scissors, where Noel has a stealth bomber and a tank and Tager just gets a slingshot.

[Zeron_X25]

You need to grab a lot in this matchup. Trust me when I say that against Noel, GF oki > grab is the best oki you're gonna get outta GF. Noels stopped mashing 2D and now 4D is the hot shit so you will always be getting those delicious purple grabs for free. You could go for the 360s but grab has little recovery so if they gold burst or do anything other than press an attack button, you're safe. And I seem to notice that they rely on D pressure a lot now and much more confident in it for some reason. I'm sure A sledging during their pressure works just watch out for d.6D and d.6B. d.6C is free IB into 720 or 360. IB those assault throughs for a nice 360. B sledge proved very useful in this matchup when they're caught mashing but you're too scared to try hitting them during 4D.Her 6A is no longer retarded so she can't use it in pressure and that's very good. 2D oki is very strong in the corner so don't bother with GF in the corner although I'm sure no one does that. 2B eats a lot of her shit so don't be afraid to use it especially in the corner. I'd go for 2B > 360 if you feel like they're gonna disrespect your 2B.

That's all that I know. Noel is pretty much mash 4D in this game and that's who you're fighting. 4D not Noel.

[Manta]

On that note. using B+C or 360B asap after a gadget finger will also catch 2D, since that takes 5 frames before noel leaves the ground.

[Zeron_X25]

On that note. using B+C or 360B asap after a gadget finger will also catch 2D, since that takes 5 frames before noel leaves the ground.

Oh I did not know that. Noted and thank you.

[A.X.I.S.]

Hahaha...sigh.

I'll do a write up for this later.

You guys might like what I have here.

[mAc Chaos]

inb4 "play a different character"

[A.X.I.S.]

Nah I wouldn't do that.

The Noel player should switch characters because we drop bombs on her design.

[Zeron_X25]

Yeah Tager is pretty much anti-Noel technology.

[Manta]

Voltic Hammer is also funny as all hell. If you catch any of her drives (except 6D) on the voltic, the hammer WILL hit. Noel hasn't a physical drive state move she can use that's quick enough, the rest are projectiles. She can still do a drive special as well, but that requires a good read, since you can just keep voltic up and hit her out of the recovery. Not sure what happens with assault through.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Manta

[Zeron_X25]

And I still don't know how to trigger the hammer....

[Koopa_Klawz]

And I still don't know how to trigger the hammer....

236A but, if you do it too fast, it won't come out. :/

[DeadliestxXx]

Holding D on the charge state Then do 236A

[Ml131]

I thought it was 236A if you get hit while using the charge.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

6A is weapon of choice on when camping Noel's oki. It will ignore all her Ds except 6D which is a very odd choice on wake-up for Noel. Not to mention it's slow slow you can easily react to it and let go of 6A for CH. Beware of her instant jump 4D though (although hilariously Tager is sometimes too tall for her to jump over)

If she mashes Fenrir, you can instant block the first hit then do B Sledge into her. (hard)

You also can instant block first hit -> Magna Tech Wheel (harder)

It is possible to IB first hit -> 720 (good fucking luck)

[Mucky]

It's actually possible to 360A Noel right out of Fenrir. You can even wait for the super flash before doing it.

Also 2D is fucking amazing in this matchup.

[Osuna]

6A is weapon of choice on when camping Noel's oki. It will ignore all her Ds except 6D which is a very odd choice on wake-up for Noel. Not to mention it's slow slow you can easily react to it and let go of 6A for CH. Beware of her instant jump 4D though (although hilariously Tager is sometimes too tall for her to jump over)

If she mashes Fenrir, you can instant block the first hit then do B Sledge into her. (hard)

You also can instant block first hit -> Magna Tech Wheel (harder)

It is possible to IB first hit -> 720 (good fucking luck)

I think you mean on oki 6A beats a lot of things? That's a weird/wrong way to say it.

Also you can totally buffer things during super flashes. I don't recommend holding 6A, simply because it is safer and will catch backdashes in GF esque situations.

To IB fenrir, when already blocking during the flash you have to let go of block and go back to it after the flash, which would give you plenty of time to buffer Bsledge. Or you can 360A during the flash so they can't rapid or burst. If you're that close you can IB the follow up also for more meter to 720 if the circumstances are right.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

I think you mean on oki 6A beats a lot of things? That's a weird/wrong way to say it.

Being honest, I fucking hate the term oki because it never makes sense to me which fighter is being talked about. I meant when Noel is getting back up you can camp her with 6A (assuming she's magnetized which she better be if you just knocked her down). This is why I say "wake-up" instead.

I don't use GF to force people to stand up if I don't need to, it just erases potential frame advantage and makes your intentions way too obvious. I have a speech about this about the difference between fighting frame-data and fighting actual human beings, but that's another story.

I use 6A like crack because of the massive mix-up potential on it. There's literally no reliable way to get around Tager's 6A. Anyone who's fought my Tager knows the pain I speak of.

Also, really fucking odd how you can't 720 Noel out of Fenrir, I just tested it in training and timed it perfectly. I ignored the melee hit, did the grab, and she "blocked" 720 lol no joke. Displayed the "blocking" blue graphic on her. The IB -> 720 is definitely worth noting then, seeing as you can't counter Fenrir with 720 right off the bat.

And trust me, I know about buffering inputs...

Edited January 21, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[Koopa_Klawz]

I'm pretty sure Noel can low profile 6A with 3C.

[mAc Chaos]

I have a speech about this about the difference between fighting frame-data and fighting actual human beings, but that's another story.

NOPE TOO LATE

I want to hear it. :P

Couldn't she throw you out of your 6A.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

I'm pretty sure Noel can low profile 6A with 3C.

Pretty sure she can, but unsure about a Meaty 6A. Just tested it, it blocks her 3C and does hit her during her recovery. LOL Noel

There's no such thing as one flawless strategy that can't be undone.

Except Valkenhayn

For instance Noel can tk a 4D and get past a lot of Tager's stuff, but if you just go passive on Tager you can snag her with a 360A when she lands.

I mainly use 6A on wake-up when I know I've got them scared. Otherwise I confirm with something first, even if it's just a 5A->5B.

Random note: Mashing 360 during Noel's D spam is a pretty bad idea because she usually ends it with Spring Raid or Assault Through, both of which are pretty good against 360. (For Assault Through, if Noel is close enough Tager usually uses the 360 in the wrong direction)

Not that mashing 360 is usually ever a good idea, it's just an especially bad idea against Noel.

Couldn't she throw you out of your 6A.

I don't see why I would be using 6A within Noel's grip range. I'd only ever use it with magnetism period. If you're talking about her command throw I would just let go of 6A (I don't find reacting with 6A to be difficult).

I've never been grabbed out of 6A, if I feel like I'm about to get grabbed I just let it go. You have to have balls of steel to run into Tager's 6A and attempt to throw him. That's like sprinting into Haku-men's 6C lol.

Random Note Of Interest

Holy sweet mother of god Noel's backstep is fucking fast as hell, I can see this being a problem in some situations when trying to vacuum. She'll get Negative Penalty in record time though :P

Edited January 21, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[Osuna]

Being honest, I fucking hate the term oki because it never makes sense to me which fighter is being talked about. I meant when Noel is getting back up you can camp her with 6A (assuming she's magnetized which she better be if you just knocked her down). This is why I say "wake-up" instead.

I don't use GF to force people to stand up if I don't need to, it just erases potential frame advantage and makes your intentions way too obvious. I have a speech about this about the difference between fighting frame-data and fighting actual human beings, but that's another story.

I use 6A like crack because of the massive mix-up potential on it. There's literally no reliable way to get around Tager's 6A. Anyone who's fought my Tager knows the pain I speak of.

Also, really fucking odd how you can't 720 Noel out of Fenrir, I just tested it in training and timed it perfectly. I ignored the melee hit, did the grab, and she "blocked" 720 lol no joke. Displayed the "blocking" blue graphic on her. The IB -> 720 is definitely worth noting then, seeing as you can't counter Fenrir with 720 right off the bat.

And trust me, I know about buffering inputs...

Here is an easy way to remember. Oki and wake up are opposites, get it?

Ok, so Oki with Tager, should pretty much Never be from that far away? What they heck are you doing to get that situation so often? The problem with holding 6A is that in most situations at most ranges it can be dealt with safely on reaction.

So here's the problem with your advice. It is Extremely Specific to a situation that is not typical and you didn't explain it clearly at all. Even now I'm not sure what situation you are describing and I'm not even sure your mix up isn't Solvable. So you need to take a step back and explain the knock down and the mix up.

edit:Noel's super blocks throws during invuln frames, yeah. That's why you do 360A instead.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Osuna

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Here is an easy way to remember. Oki and wake up are opposites, get it?

Yeah but which one is which?

Ok, so Oki with Tager, should pretty much Never be from that far away? What they heck are you doing to get that situation so often? The problem with holding 6A is that in most situations at most ranges it can be dealt with safely on reaction.

So here's the problem with your advice. It is Extremely Specific to a situation that is not typical and you didn't explain it clearly at all. Even now I'm not sure what situation you are describing and I'm not even sure your mix up isn't Solvable. So you need to take a step back and explain the knock down and the mix up.

edit:Noel's super blocks throws during invuln frames, yeah. That's why you do 360A instead.

Basically a video is worth a million words. Unfortunately my card is still debunk.

I'm done trying to explain. It's definitely not an extremely specific situation because I do it all the time.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Osuna

[Osuna]

Yeah but which one is which?

Basically a video is worth a million words. Unfortunately my card is still debunk.

I'm done trying to explain. It's definitely not an extremely specific situation because I do it all the time.

It isn't a specific situation. It is a mix up specific to an atypical situation, If I applied your tech to my gameplay it would Never happen because all of my combos end in either j.D or GF and your strategy doesn't apply to those situations. It is specific to a situation you never described and isn't common knowledge.

You can't go "This is good in a mix up that is only good in a situation I get into because I play different from everyone else" and then Not tell us what you are doing that is different from everyone else.

Oki, is something an upright person does to a person getting up. Hence a "wake up DP" is a reversal DP when recovering from a knock down.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Osuna

[Ctrlaltwtf]

It isn't a specific situation. It is a mix up specific to an atypical situation, If I applied your tech to my gameplay it would Never happen because all of my combos end in either j.D or GF and your strategy doesn't apply to those situations. It is specific to a situation you never described and isn't common knowledge.

You can't go "This is good in a mix up that is only good in a situation I get into because I play different from everyone else" and then Not tell us what you are doing that is different from everyone else.

Oki, is something an upright person does to a person getting up. Hence a "wake up DP" is a reversal DP when recovering from a knock down.

See I end most of my stuff with GF vacuum instead of GF itself (obviously not all the time). It's lot more uncomfortable to the opponent than gadget finger because their character movement is completely messed up. Ask mAc he knows what I mean.

To me GF is just too much of a "OKAY HERE WE GO I'M ABOUT TO DO A MIX-UP ON YOU, ARE YOU READY?!" regardless of it's frame advantage. The enemy has far too much time to think about what they're going to do. I go for tech traps and resets way more on Tager than GF itself. I use GF all the time for vacuum though.

What I'm saying is I use 6A on oki I suppose. Not on GF, because GF doesn't have enough +, I just mean when someone is neutral teching. When I'm feeling less ambitious I just go for a 5A confirm first like anyone else, so 5A > 5B > 5C > 6A -> mix-up. I'm saying it's especially powerful against Noel because she doesn't have any moves that won't get blocked by 6A, except her 2B which won't likely be in range.

I don't have time to tinker with it or anything because I gotta go to work. I'll try to find the drivers for my stupid card and get it functional tonight though.