[P4A] Labrys - Gameplay Discussion

[Tari]

Yeah, those combos work with the D super.

FC 5B > 5C > 2C > 214B (girokasu) > (optional dash) 2A > 2B > j.B > jc j.B > j.C > j.214B > 236236D (7306 dmg, 39 meter gain)

FC 5B > 5C > 2C > j.BB > jc j.214B (air girokasu) > 2B > j.B > jc j.B > j.C > j.214B > 236236D (7304 dmg, 42 meter gain)

Your combo gains 46 meter, so it definitely does generate a bit more meter, not to mention the burst regen. It carries further, too, I believe. That said, it also leaves the opponent very far away from you on wakeup, and requires that you be at almost point blank to start the combo.

edit:

Just as a point of comparison, this is a standard FC 5B ... [b+D] combo:

FC 5B > 5C > 2C > [b+D] > dash 5A > 2C > [b+D] > dash 5A > 2C > [b+D] > dash 2A > 2B > hj.B > j.C > j.214B > 236236D (7859 dmg, 49 meter gain)

Edited September 14, 2012 by Tari

[iora]

yea that combo is really nice, didnt quite realize the damage/meter gain on it. ill hafta get my timing for super after all that down better. guess i dont need to avoid the [bd] combos at red axe level if they basically generate their own meter.

ill stick to avoiding [bd] at below red axe maybe. thanks for the food for thought.

[kro_]

It's too quiet in here. Anyways, I played a ton of matches online this weekend so I'm gonna make a long rant about what I learned. I'm surprised at how smooth online play is with at least 2 bars. Ranked was mostly free but player matches have a lot of strong players.

I feel like Aigis is even tougher to deal with than Mitsuru. Unlike Mitsuru, her 5a and 2a are faster than Labrys so you can't mash out of anything with IB. There's pretty much no reason for her to respect Labrys's defense because all of the gaps in her offense end in safe jumps. If you alpha counter at the wrong time (falling j.b or j.c), she can still block in time. Labrys can't do anything about crossups but block. And just like with Mitsuru you have to bait two DPs to get a good punish. Trying to antiair orgia mode j.C with 2B from halfway across the screen is a losing battle. She can easily play runaway to ruin all your momentum when you hit red axe. The only times I ever managed to win were when I slowly pushed her into the corner by blocking everything and guessing right 2-3 times with spike oki into a big red axe combo.

All my hate matchups: Aigis

Tough matchups: Mitsuru, Yosuke, Chie, Akihiko

Manageable: Everyone else

Favored: None

I think the first thing every Labrys player needs to learn is how rewarding it is to know your ranges. I spend like half of every match just jumping up and down with my finger on the B button. The sweet spot is the range where your opponent's 2B won't hit, but your falling j.B will hit if they make any sort of aggressive action. Controlling that area against anyone with less range than you makes things much easier. Bait whiffed 2Bs and DPs by abusing that range. Also mix it up with double jumps, crossups, and empty jump low/throw. Labrys has a very simple and honest style in a game where everyone has tons of ridiculous crap.

Another important spot is air dash range. Fish for 2B at this range. You need to make people respect your antiair before they will ever give you breathing room. 5C is also very powerful at this range since it outranges or comes out faster than pretty much everything but Mitsuru's coup, Izanagi car, Teddie's bat, and beams. It has projectile properties as well so it can cancel out non-beam ones. 5C > 2AB is a true blockstring, but 5C into 214A has a gap at certain distances so watch out for DP mashes. It also loses to superjump > airdash > crossup.

The second thing important thing to learn is to end combos in sweep and figure out how to make use of her limited oki. Yes, it might just be a tiny spike with low blockstun, but at least it still gives you an advantage on opponent knockdown. It also hits much farther horizontally than you'd think. There are basically 3 options after the usual knockdown combo (2aaa 5b 2ab 22):

• Pressure then Release - This involves hitting with a meaty and allowing the spike to combo into it to set up a combo. If they block the initial hit, the spike will give you enough time to continue pressuring. Use 2AB for the low, 214A/B for overhead, dash 5A > IAD for crossup, or 2B for catching people trying to jump out. This beats throw techs and poor blocking. Loses to rolls and DPs.
  
• Throw then Release - Throw immediately and release the spike to give you a combo without spending any meter. If they jump, you can release the spike and put them in block stun to continue pressuring. If you predict the jump, you can go for an airthrow and combo it into the spike as well. This beats rolls and blocking. Loses to mashing and DPs.
  
• Bait and Release - This involves releasing the spike immediately on their wakeup and either backdashing or rolling to avoid a reversal. You can use the roll to cross them up with the spike. If they just sit there and block the spike, it's back to neutral. Beats DPs. Loses to blocking. Loses to rolls if you roll.
  

Tip: Timing the spike release and knowing which button to hold takes practice. If you want to do a meaty attack first, you need to do 22~[C] on knockdown. This means do 22B first > hold B > hold C > release B. If you did it right, then the spike did not release and you are now free to use B for your meaty attack i.e. 2AB or 2B. If you want to throw instead, just hold B and throw normally. This technique is pretty hard to do on pad with face buttons. If you don't have a stick, consider mapping C or D to a shoulder button and using that to do your negative edging. The button you use to hold the spike after initially placing it doesn't matter unless you need to use that button again in the next 3 seconds. I just used C as an example because that's comfortable for me.

Skipping opponent awakenings with D super is really important since it essentially reduces the amount of damage you have to deal for the kill by 2-3k. But if someone still has a burst and you get red axe, it's usually worth it to finish off a combo with D super early. Who knows if you'll ever get another chance to land D super with red axe again? Most people save their bursts for a red axe kill combo. The only exception where I think you want to skip awakening no matter what is Chie because who wants to deal with meteors.

Finally, any low prorate combo into C super > OMB > 214B > D super is a great way to deal the necessary damage to kill people even with a burst. It's also really easy to pull off. If they try to burst before the 214B hits, their burst will usually be too high to knock you back so you can punish however you like. If they try to burst after getting hit by 214B, the D super will still kill thanks to invincibility frames.

[toanenadiz]

It's too quiet in here.

I'm assuming everyone is making new awesome tech. Or dealing with life stuff.

If you don't like quiet, you could get everyone to focus on getting as much information as they can about a single match-up and every few days share that information and switch to a new match-up so our match-up threads all get good information in them.

[WintySoSolo]

I was going to do a bunch of testing of certain ideas I had, but stuff happened. I still plan on doing it and revealing my secrets on how to play labrys like a retard who doesn't know what this game is.

[TD]

kro, why aren't you a mod yet?

also, who are some good labrys players to watch? she does look interesting, but apparently she's bad somehow. l say, not with dat j.b she isn't. srsly though, good labrys players.

[redsilversnake]

Tough matchups: [...] Akihiko

I wouldn't really consider Akihiko a tough MU. Granted, I haven't really played many good ones, but it seems like it's only slightly in his favor.

5C > 2AB is a true blockstring, but 5C into 214A has a gap at certain distances so watch out for DP mashes.

This is true at most distances, but I'd recommend being wary if 5C connects at/near max range, as her sweep can also be DP'ed in that situation.

Anyway, good write-up. Definitely some worthwhile stuff in there.

also, who are some good labrys players to watch? she does look interesting, but apparently she's bad somehow. l say, not with dat j.b she isn't. srsly though, good labrys players.

No, she's quite weak. In terms of utility, j.B is really her only good normal. She does have some other things going for her, but in general, she needs to work noticeably harder than most of the other characters to do well.

As for players, some are mentioned in the video thread. PurePure (who, for the record, was the only Labrys to qualify for SBO) is probably the best, but from what I remember, EK and Mr. Lark did quite well too. Tomo used to be another player to look out for, I believe, but he's played Shadow Labrys I think since the arcade patch.

[WintySoSolo]

“how to play labrys like you are really stupid” aka “FLabrys”

Labrys has like, really bad cancel options from her autocombo. 5AA loses normal cancel options, leaving you with only persona, special, and super cancels, and your persona skills aren't really useful in this situation. Which is REALLY bad since you only did 5AA. Not to mention that there is a gap that can be DPed between the second and third hit.

The way I play involves baiting DPs. Or threatening to bait them by using what I know as stagger pressure. Stagger pressure is making frame traps by delaying your blockstrings – you stagger you cancels. Here’s a list of stuff you can do on block because you have no blockstrings.

Vs people who mash:

5AA block: “Please hang yourself on your DP”

5AA delay A: third hit of autocombo can be delayed to fake the previous. If someone presses 5B they will likely be counterhit here. Sadly because labrys has NO FUCKING CANCLE OPTIONS there isn’t any fancy combo you can do here without spending meter on OMC or 236A 6A+B. either finish autocombo or do 236A 6A.

5AA 236A: On counterhit can do 64 5A into autocombo. Will actually cause a double whiff on certain DPs, but not all are punishable. Risky, but more reward than doing the third hit of autocombo.

5AA delay 214A/B: Not the most rewarding thing to do, but I guess you could super cancel for a kill if you really needed it.

5AA delay 214A+B: If it hits you can actually do something.

5AA 214214C: For when you are fighting Kanji.

5AA 214214A: For when you are ballin.

5AA 214214B: For when you need to stop.

Vs people who mash less:

5AA…

step 5AA: The pressure train has no breaks, bro. Can’t stop even if you wanted too.

step throw: they are blocking? Grab them.

5B: counterhit 5B is big damage.

5{B}: Blocked 5{B} is big frame advantage. Used for when they block.

5: 2spooky.

COOL MIXUP:

5A 2149A/B: Hits overhead on the second hit of j214B.

5A 9214A/B: Hits crossup on the third hit of j214B. Will hit crossup and overhead on the second hit if done fast. Note that the animation starts on the same side, but due to the forward momentum, it crosses over during the startup when labrys hangs in the air spinning.

5A 2149A(1) OMC…

land 2A: low hit

jA: high hit. Land and do 2A for 2A->2B combo on hit or a low if they blocked.

I apologize if there are any weird typos, I'm having some computer problems and I wrote this in microsoft word and it was autocorrecting a bunch of stuff that I didn't want it to, but hopefully I managed to undo all of the changes.

Edited September 18, 2012 by WintySoSolo

[iora]

i think maven (platinum player from bb) still plays her, but havent seen anything in a while labrys wise at all.

im taking a few days break to collect myself, i wasnt making progress and just getting mad.

as far as training, no new tech, just actual gameplay to figure out timing on ambiguous 22x releases for oki, gimmicks to use (vs standing opponent, rising j.a, j.c, (optional j214a) OMC, throw)

shes a fun character, but everytime i find something new, if its not a gimmick, its not optimal compared to 2c>bd loops.... so its just hard to find new shit.

ill see if i can get a matchup really solid so i can give some advice.

[TransientFaith]

im taking a few days break to collect myself, i wasnt making progress and just getting mad.

This x100. I plan on looking into some matchup specific stuff later and will post my findings if I don't first

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

[toanenadiz]

5AA loses ALL cancel options except super and special. Which is REALLY bad since you only did 5AA.

Wait...Doesn't 5AA > 5C work? Well, all of the persona attacks but I've only really used 5C.

[iora]

it should be persona cancellable too, red axe 5aa 5aa 2c after all right?

[WintySoSolo]

Yes, that was a mistake on my part. A really bad one. I'm pretty sure I don't press the persona buttons anyway.

There, I edited it to say what I actually meant. I'm not used to having people actually read my useless ramblings so I get really sloppy.

Edited September 18, 2012 by WintySoSolo

[toanenadiz]

On a different note, has anyone found out any other set-ups for D oki outside of the corner one?

Thinking about it now, you could also set it up from any spike hit by going into 5D rather than going for the sweep and spike oki again.

I guess I should be wondering if 5D is better for oki than spike is or not. What do you guys think?

[iora]

if im gonna oki for 5d, i tend to 2c 5d from far away. it cancels if they block, then you go in, and its usually far enough to stop most DPs. i dont do it a lot, so not sure how it fares vs roll.

[TransientFaith]

Thinking about it now, you could also set it up from any spike hit by going into 5D rather than going for the sweep and spike oki again.

I guess I should be wondering if 5D is better for oki than spike is or not. What do you guys think?

I like 5D oki, but you cannot get it from spike hit. Spike forces persona to stay out long after when you would want to throw 5D. They can just poke you out of 5D startup at that point.

[WintySoSolo]

guys

what if

hey guys listen

what if you did 214A and then did OMC and then did 5D?

[iora]

you'd get mashed to hell.

[toanenadiz]

if im gonna oki for 5d, i tend to 2c 5d from far away. it cancels if they block, then you go in, and its usually far enough to stop most DPs. i dont do it a lot, so not sure how it fares vs roll.

That's interesting. Never thought about doing a meaty 2C into it. Thanks

I like 5D oki, but you cannot get it from spike hit. Spike forces persona to stay out long after when you would want to throw 5D. They can just poke you out of 5D startup at that point.

That sucks. Guess it explains when I haven't been doing it after all this time. Probably tried it, failed and then forgot all about it till just now. I need to start writing this stuff down.

[kro_]

kro, why aren't you a mod yet?

also, who are some good labrys players to watch? she does look interesting, but apparently she's bad somehow. l say, not with dat j.b she isn't. srsly though, good labrys players.

I take too many breaks from FGs to even want that job.

I haven't seen a lot of JP players use Labrys lately. I don't think she'll ever get out of the lowest tier. Sometimes it feels like I'm playing a grappler trying to get in on people but I don't have a command throw, fast normals, or a good DP to threaten people when I actually do get close to them. Her strength is at mid-range, but it's not any better than people like Mitsuru or Teddie. You have to make hard reads to beat good players. At least she gets good damage off of it.

I wouldn't really consider Akihiko a tough MU. Granted, I haven't really played many good ones, but it seems like it's only slightly in his favor.

You're right about that. I was debating about including him in there but I probably just forgot to delete the name.

This x100. I plan on looking into some matchup specific stuff later and will post my findings if I don't first

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Thirding this. Matchup sections are always barren on DL even though it's pretty much half the battle. Any little bit helps even if all it does is spark a bit of discussion.

On a different note, has anyone found out any other set-ups for D oki outside of the corner one?

Thinking about it now, you could also set it up from any spike hit by going into 5D rather than going for the sweep and spike oki again.

I guess I should be wondering if 5D is better for oki than spike is or not. What do you guys think?

I feel like it's best used after 5C or 2C. Once people learn how to block the high/low mixup after 5C, I tend to go for 5DD and rush in. It's still pretty unsafe to do it at any time if people have fast, long range punishes but gotta try something right?

[Tari]

You can actually use the corner oki setup for 5DD midscreen if you confirm a combo into 2C fairly close. Not really sure it's worth it, though.

5C > 5D and other weird gatlings into 5D are sorta legit, too, as long as the opponent isn't expecting it. Using 5D at neutral against people who try to jump in on you a lot is fairly reasonable, as well, as long as you space it decently.

I don't really feel like there are any Labrys players that really stand out from the rest at the moment. The higher PSR players are play fairly similarly, as far as I've seen. Admittedly, I haven't checked out all the new videos for Labrys stuff.

Anyway, I did see a couple of newer videos with Labrys in it. Can't recall exactly which videos at the moment, though. Had them pulled up in another tab, but lost them when I had to restart my browser after leaving it open for two weeks or so. I think the Sega vids pktazn posted up a week ago or so had some of the Labrys games. Haven't really looked through the newer ones.

Most of the Labrys players on those videos were around the 400-500 PSR range, though there was one or two at 700+. That said, there's literally nothing new in those vids. No new oki, no new mixup or crossups, nothing. Just a lot of spacing (with a lot of j.B), trying to read the opponent, and 22x oki. Still not bad to watch, though.

Advanced combo path/theory thread is on hold at the moment. Sorta busy, and I'm heading out of town for a few days at the end of the week.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Tari

[WintySoSolo]

Eyo why is this game so stuuuupid.

I was mashing shit on netplay(a hobby of mine and part of why I'm so bad.) and I managed to anti-air someone with 5A in a really odd position. They ended up getting hit behind me, and since I'm REALLY bad at this game I hit 5A again anyway and labrys actually decided to turn around and keep doing her autocombo. Needless to say I was so astounded at how advanced her AI is that I kept mashing A to finish the autocombo, super, and kill the guy that I did not save the replay, which saddens me greatly.

tl;dr labrys can turn around in the middle of her autocombo. also this game is stupid.

[Fluck]

It's called auto-correction and it applies to every character if you time it right, not just Labrys.

[redsilversnake]

Needless to say I was so astounded at how advanced her AI is that I kept mashing A to finish the autocombo, super, and kill the guy that I did not save the replay, which saddens me greatly.

I feel ya, man. That reminds me of this one time I accidentally did Moujuu, because I was trying to do 214214C, but my opponent crossed me up right as I finished the input, and it hit them in a way that it did that trick from the Sakura combo movie. I even followed it up. Not saving that is my biggest regret right now.

Edited September 19, 2012 by redsilversnake

[WintySoSolo]

I feel ya, man. That reminds me of this one time I accidentally did Moujuu, because I was trying to do 214214C, but my opponent crossed me up right as I finished the input, and it hit them in a way that it did that trick from the Sakura combo movie. I even followed it up. Not saving that is my biggest regret right now.

214214D/C is actually an option select. If they safe jump in front of you they have to block and eat your mixup, if they do a crossup they get hit by 236236C/D. Pretty sure that nobody actually does a crossup safejump setup in order to bait this so it's actually really strong.

game is dumb.