[CP] Rachel Alucard Gameplay Discussion

[Tari]

Obviously 1.1

Just had to make sure. :P

[Ragnarok_F4]

Some Rachel stuff for BBCP 2.0:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQticmoIZQQ&feature=youtu.be

[Zoular]

I'm wondering if it's possible to have a combo ender involving 3C > 236B/C now that Lobelia has another hitbox after wall box, maybe it can catch a late tech. http://youtu.be/2GVx6XCSFHI?t=57m29s Could also blue beat I suppose.
Judging from the A-Cho video they look much higher and bounce quite far btw

[Amegashita]

Wow that wind regen.  Just wow. 

 

However, that "vortex" effect on 3c definitely makes some combos more consistent so yay

[Zoular]

Hate how it pulled Nu-13 away from a pole though lol

[TD]

Yeah I'm not a fan of 3c now but 4b takes its place nicely so it's ok.

Old 236c is back, so windless fullscreen zoning. Makes sense with how wind acts now.

Lotus lasts like 5 seconds now. A lotus still bad most likely

5cc looks very weird, very little hitstun. 4b low float on hit means 5cc must be immediate. Gaining wind during combos has gotten worse as a result. 3c can hit 3 times and still vacuums into a pole in combos so I guess this is a buff to wind regen in combos.

5b seemingly level 2, so IOH is likely not gapless anymore. Not too worried about this, gives charas with a dp a good chance of escaping without some summon support, but still a beast with basically anything on top of the opponent

New windless pole combo in the corner but looks a bit unstable at the moment, may have to see it again before I say anything.

Overall she looks the same and should be perfectly fine. I do not think she is better than cp1 but she could have been hit so, so much harder. And with everyone getting general nerfs I doubt she is going to be anywhere near weak in this game.

[Zoular]

Maybe, I do hope so. I'm more scared for the wind regeneration more than anything, I think Lotus is gonna play a key part of this. I forget It's only been a day xD

[Amegashita]

Doesn't it seem that 5c is faster now?  I know in that video the rachel was doing j.a, j.b, 5cc and I know I could never get that to work in 1.1.

 

edit. nvm, don't think i saw the 5b.

 

edit, edit.  nvm I'm right, you can combo j.b/j.c straight into 5cc.  Don't remember that being possible in 1.1

[Sakaku]

It's definitely faster, insanely fast that is.

Also, according to this Rachel changes video j.C now launches standing opponents if being used with wind, similar to 6A (don't know if that was possible before).

With these changes to 236B (more hitstun?), lvl 2 j.2C might be relevant again, boosting damage and corner carry potential.

[TD]

not sure if the actual startup on 5c is faster. if it is, that would likely be becuse of OD giving some more of her normals jump cancel properties. it would make ja gapless again. pus the whole low float 4b thing. wind regen does look like crap but at least on oki we are still getting one back. it just means rachel will need an iron grip on the foe's balls on oki. once she uses wind now it isn't very likely she will get to 4 stocks at all that round unless she's losing miserably.

 

edit

 

 

Doesn't it seem that 5c is faster now?  I know in that video the rachel was doing j.a, j.b, 5cc and I know I could never get that to work in 1.1.

 

edit. nvm, don't think i saw the 5b.

 

edit, edit.  nvm I'm right, you can combo j.b/j.c straight into 5cc.  Don't remember that being possible in 1.1

this has been possible in every iteration of the game off a delayed ja jb. the reason why it is important now, ja is now a vs starter. doing 5b will make the regular 5b 6a 236a combo drop in cp2. one could just do 6a 4b summon, but the longer the combo the better, even if by a mere fraction.

 

if 5c really is faster, this should still be a rather simple combo to do, but may need to be confirmed correctly, since 5c on block is undesireable.

[Errol]

5c is faster, not much faster. 5cc on whiff is much faster. 5c is probably 14 frames now, same as 6b.

 

new 3c isn't good, it's a pain. there are a bunch of new combo routes which will let rachel do more with less wind.

[kirbster]

New 3c at least doesn't have SMP anymore, so we don't need to do the 5d 6a microdash 5b combo midscreen, thank god. We can go straight into the regular bnb (for example, fuzzy j.b j.a j.c land dash 5b 3C 8D, dash 5b 6a 236a, dash 3C, iris, dash 6a 4b, dash 5cc.)

And 5c is definitely faster which is nice. IOH j.2ad j.b into dash 5cc is DEFINITELY new. Overall with the new 4b bounce, 3c vacuum effect and faster 5c startup, I feel they made her bnb simply much easier to land. Less need to delay specific moves depending on the opponent's height during the combo.

Lotus seems to last around 7 seconds actually, not toooo bad. I'm really interested in being able to trigger sword iris on them now, though it won't hit opponents who are running or otherwise jumping around. It can be helpful to annoy characters like Mu-12 and Kokonoe when they want to set up their zoning I think, and maybe be useful for some windless hit confirms?

Like TD so far I'm not worried about Rachel for CP2, she still looks really strong. It seems to me they kind of lowered the execution barrier too at first glance, at least for her old bnbs... Maybe this can help more people play her now and perform well other than N-O lol

[Errol]

5DJC floats now, so the best midscreen route is probably 5CD6CJC>stuff.

 

The new 4b gatlings enable some combos that didn't work before. for example a throw combo, you can connect 6A4B after iris in 1.1 but they bounce too high to hit with 5CC. you can just do 6a4B5CC now. 

 

the 6A nerf in neutral hurts quite a bit. total duration is more than 10 frames longer I believe. You can't even connect 5b on 6aCH I think. so have to find out what the combo will be there.

[Amegashita]

Gonna have to take advantage of the new 6a jump cancel.

[Soniti]

Found a nice example of the new normal starter -> 3c 8d route midscreen in a match video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GVx6XCSFHI&t=1h58m14s

2b 5b j.3d j.b j.c 5b 3c8d 5b 6a 236a 3c(3) 214c 6a 4b 5cc

 

The lack of 3c SMP and the vacuum on the move should prove quite useful for combo material.

 

Just theorycrafting here, but the lack of SMP makes RC combos viable when you are out of wind midscreen, right?

Something like 5b 5c 3c(3) 236a RC dash 3c(3) 214c 6a 4b 5cc?

 

EDIT:

Airthrow groundbounces now!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GVx6XCSFHI&t=2h12m18s

Potential windless followups...

 

Later in the video, airthrow -> astral combos

[Tari]

That airthrow ground bounce looks so strange. I wonder if it's always going to be combo-able from any height?

 

Your theory about the 3C 236A RC combo sounds pretty legitimate to me. Can't see any reason it shouldn't work from what we know.

[Amegashita]

I don't know what to think about 2.0 Rachel.  So combos being more consistent to land is a good thing but her damage and oki got destroyed pretty badly, coupled with the fact that wind regen is pretty horrible.  It's not looking good, but it could be worse i guess.

[TD]

Huh? Her oki looks fine. It's just that she just uses 4b now if I'm not mistaken. She should still be able to punish rolls consistently, but she may have to give up a bit of damage. Plus it's still early, rachel thrives off of all her combos being optimized. As it stands she can still get the same amount of windless combo time if the player plays their cards right. Thankfully her combos have not changed drastically and should be simple to assimilate. Who better to adapt than the infamous NO. I look forward to seeing what he and the combo video mongers come up with.

Wind though I agree is really bad. Wind is like breath to rachel strangely enough, if it isn't there she basically only has 6a, 6b and random items in the screen to rely on. Of all the characters who were neutered in this regard (relius, kokonoe, hazama etc), I think rachel and relius got punched, hazama slapped, and kokonoe got a small tap on the shoulder lol (my thoughts are by no means the truth in that regard though.) Either way she should be able to utilize her strengths in a way that prevent her from being on the defensive. Because if she doesn't she has to pop OD to come back now. As a whole, bb seemed to become more about playing a very strong neutral game, especially for those who have some sort of meter to rely on.

I think she will be fine ONLY because several characters got the same treatment as she did.

[Amegashita]

I kind of agree, Rachel will be fine, albeit not absolutely, but probably fine.  I guess oki off of a 5b/2b starter is fine but off of a 5a, or more importantly, off a j.2ad, b, is way worse.  It wasn't the best in 1.1 but it gave you kind of okay spacing.  The 4b though looks like it puts puts you pretty close to the opponent or rather doens't push you away at all.  Like in the set between Emurisu and N-O, they were rolling out of the short starter oki setups very consistently.  Its definitely early and i'm sure the Rachel's over in Japan will figure out ways to counter act it, but it as of right now securing knockdown off a short starter looks much worse in my opinion.

[Errol]

It is much worse. JAJB5C is a harder confirm to go for. if 5b6a won't connect after 5cc you're in a difficult position because 6a will whiff unless you dash right into them. and if you dash right into them you're so close for just rolling out.

 

perfectly spaced 6a 4b 3c is fine but it's much harder to do the spacing in this game.

 

Using 1 wind to touch the enemy and having 3 to break down, or use in a following combo is much different from having 1 wind after you touch someone and not being able to do any kind of real combo.

 

lili combos don't give you back all of your wind and let you set up pumpkin and frog. you're stuck with still probably 2 wind, and only frog or only pumpkin.

 

and 6A is really really fucked up now. probably one of the longest if not the longest to recover antiairs now.

 

there are some better combo paths, but it doesn't make up for the wind loss. basically, you could do similar things in CP by burning an extra wind on all of your combos, and you had the wind to do it.  on the other hand many 6a hits require a wind to combo now, and many didn't in CP.

[TD]

Can't ch 6a be comboed into 236a, or 4b? I don't think 6a is completely gimped just harder to confirm and much more likely to need a wind. It could be worse, like not having a special cancel at all.

Need to watch more videos, I guess the ones I have watched still have people respecting her corner oki. They were day 1/2 videos... So yeah

There will be tech figured out on this stuff, I just know it. We may have to do a different combo route, omit a move or two, or something, but it will be figured out how to oki on a short starter. There hasn't been any tech involving the new lobelias, and lotus routes may play a factor in corner setplay, something is bound to work

[Errol]

it's worse on hit but it's hella fucking worse on whiff and on block. it simply hurts neutral without using wind a lot, which wind in neutral got a lot harder too.

[Yaaay]

Is it known that hitting 4B on a grounded opponent doesn't pop them up anymore? You can do 4b 3c 8d 6a 236a dash 3c 214c 5cc now since 4b > 3c works now. 

[Wild Candy]

If all else fails, you could probably just set up some george/pumpkin while the opponent is suffering from wallstick do to 5CC.

 

Also, has there been any real use of being able to hit Lotus Bats with Sword Iris, like for approaching or controlling space, etc.

[TD]

The problem with that is that it isn't maximizing damage heat or wind gain and doesn't guarantee oki. Edit: never mind because you could be talking about at the end of a corner combo

Lotus lightning is basically just a windless option from lotus. It isnt the best because the bats only follow the foe, not stick to them, so if the foe moves at the right time, the bats will explode where they are. This was likely an oversight by the developers.

Not to mention Bat time was cut in half so it isn't really too much of a threat. It is still an option though.