[^C] Baiken [STRAT]

[blacksnake]

just a small note, i get knocked down all the time with sakura FRC by both of the resident baikens. I usually get hit by a 5d after the FRC which knocks down. Even if they are shaking i think a sweep > air combo is guaranteed, and that's for fast mashers of which there are few, and that also knocks down. faulty info all over i swear

[Hellmonkey]

Huh? Who said it won't knock down after an FRC? Are you blind? Anyways the move and the FRC both still have uses, I just prefer baku myself, as both are usable in similar situations.

[rtl42]

It's more or less useless in 90% of situations - most cases you can use Ouren instead. Only to be used against some supers and moves like Dark Angel if you have room to do so without getting fucked over.

maybe the only case where Mawarikomi (FRC) is better than Ouren is if your Ouren would take you into the corner. At least for me, Ouren always whiff once I'm flying in to the corner, so in that case, maybe Mawarikomi would be better. but i'm not sure :?

out with ye, troll.

[SH_]

for the record, this thread is once again making my explode ... now I'm aware a lot of this is personal opinion, so for the love of God don't state it all as facts because the newer players that are trying to learn the one arm one eyed wonder weasel maybe confused... now to the facts, every counter has it's uses, there is free stuff for all of em, and a lot of it is risk reward based things, find the best reward for the least risk, don't worry, I'll give examples... ouren: it's a great addition mainly because anyone that fights against her has to keep it in the back of their mind, someone said "snipe counterhits" with it, or use it to "annoy", there are guaranteed instances where you can do it ASAP and get CH, mid gatling with a lot of characters (considering the increased range of some people, and the great range of said people in general) ex: Baiken v Eddie, Eddie is playing super american abare style, not compensating for Baiken's options, he does a poke string (2P-2S-far drill FRC) and you ouren the 2S, that's gonna CH the drill regardless of the FRC or no (it'll come out and he'll STILL get CH, it's a great thing)... youshinjin: it's a lot more viable with the way the game plays, a lot more air attacking, and it's just a good move to get people off you, once again, it's a situational move so using it as an end all be all at -18 on block would be craziness... ex: Baiken v Faust, if Faust EVER does 2K with less than 25% tension, you can block and get it for free, also good against his j.D, j.K, and pogo. mawarikomi: this will net you free throws if your opponent ever becomes predictable, it was (and still is) a great reason why you don't guard string her ever, if things your opponent do are very side dependant (Anji has a lot of d/f moves, a character has 2 moves one is QCF button, and the other is QCB button, like slayer, order sol) it is also a good idea to at least test your opponent with it sometime cause often times they will leave themselves open. ex: Baiken v Anji, Anji fujin's you (either strength) and you do the K counter immediately at any close distance you will be behind them, if they do the P follow up, you can airthrow, if they do the K counter, you can do f.S and get at least a free j.D into KD, if they do slash follow up, you can do w/e up until his FRC point, and if he does the HS or D follow up, you can chase and punish, or immediate low and win for free. sakura: yes it got toned down, but bear in mind, it was the best it's ever been in slash so you can't expect to have cake, eat it to, and then take your neighbors, now can we... it still has an FRC point, the stagger is very meaty (max 50 frames according to the AC mook), pretty much a completely free dust (which you can take to KD with big damage all day in AC and for only 25% tension, it's a good thing and it can scare the shite out of your opponent), it's still free in a lot of situations and while baku is a GREAT addition (will cover in a second), there are still purposes for the sakura. ex: Baiken v Potemkin, sure anything will get you killed against pot, so sakura is your switch up for baku or ouren, 25% tension = dust combo, it still has invulnerability to go through some pokes, and I just love the mind games off of the stagger (opinion, not stated as fact)... baku: it hits hard, the combo potential is strong, FB's hit like supers so it will stop super armor moves ( hammerfall, judge gauntlet), and the seals are STRONG AS HELL, people always talk theoreticals in gear, have you ever seen another Baiken with no jump or dash, and no slash? It is not pretty. ex: Baiken v Sol, standard situation, you bait VV, and punish with Baku, you get a free combo, or you can hit with the second part and seal it so he can't VV you with one of his buttons, dash at you or jump... I just wanted to post up my opinion, as far as tiers go, I don't think in terms of one is better than another, I think one is a guaranteed hit in a situation, or I think of what I can do to fuck with my opponent as they put ME in guard stun (I love my bitch)...

[Hellmonkey]

To all new players my biggest piece of advice is to not spam guard cancels EVER. Use them by reaction or if you honestly predict someone to do something punishable or escapable, just randomly guessing with them will get you nowhere.

[Zakuta Asura]

I rather think of what's optimal - but that's just me. I don't have each counter down as equal because I believe they aren't (I hazard to say that some players may think like this too, as you very rarely see Mawarikomi - you see regular usage of Youshijin, Sakura and Ouren though - Baku depends on the player/character). Not telling people how they should play, this is just an observation.

[SH_]

I don't believe them to be equal either, I do believe they all have practical application in someone arsenal... as for the don't do it if you are new thing, I honestly think the best way is to do it till you learn why you shouldn't, if your opponent just loses to guard counters, then it makes sense to keep doing them, alternatively if your opponent eventually becomes adept at baiting them out, punishing you for doing them, and setting you up for doing it, you learn the meta game around the counter / not countering mind game, and you won't get to that conclusion by just not doing something because someone says not to, that's not learning something, that's being told and complying (for the record, when I first started I spammed em like they never went out of style, and eventually people would punish me for doing so so I learned and adapted, and can now use them properly)...

[Hellmonkey]

Scrubbing out vs trying to play the best you can... You'll get a lot further using them sparingly and trying to poke/punish correctly, faster. If you're playing sol and mash VV every chance possible and it works, is that the only way to learn not to? There is no difference. But don't listen to me, I don't know what I'm talking about.

[Villainous]

Ehh, everything is good in moderation. I wasn't planning on whoring anything out, although I get what SH is saying. If you let yourself get punished at first, you figure out your limitations and stuff, but it's also good to play good from day one so you don't get yourself into bad habits. I like the idea of making them bait guard cancels though. Doesn't that set them up for throws pretty easy when they're sitting there expecting a counter?

[Doomscyther]

Ehh, everything is good in moderation. I wasn't planning on whoring anything out, although I get what SH is saying. If you let yourself get punished at first, you figure out your limitations and stuff, but it's also good to play good from day one so you don't get yourself into bad habits. I like the idea of making them bait guard cancels though. Doesn't that set them up for throws pretty easy when they're sitting there expecting a counter?

Yea it does.( you can throw depending on the space)

For characters like venom who can bait the slash counter with 2d, you can just TK youranzen RC (either to attack after the RC which, on the wall will cause them alot of pain, or to make yourself safe enough for retreat).

[rtl42]

Doesn't that set them up for throws pretty easy when they're sitting there expecting a counter?

Baiken is tied with Millia for second worst throw range in the game, so this doesn't work out to your advantage very much. Besides, people that bait your counters shouldn't be that close to you. They're usually going to use attacks that recover in time for them to block your counter (same idea as when you use certain moves to bait someone's burst), or use strings that cancel into something safe that beats your counters.

Short pokes are good for baiting counters, and IIRC Ky's c.S is a good example of an "auto-bait" type of move. Pre-AC, a well-timed Ky 6H would either beat any of your counters because the second hit would cut into your start-up (vs Youshijin and Mawarikomi), or just whiff and let him block (vs Sakura). (Just wanted to mention that to illustrate the point; not that it has particular relevance, now.)

Sol's 2D is a good example of a safe attack that he can cancel into and beat you out (except Ouren, but it's still safe for him anyway).

For characters like venom who can bait the slash counter with 2d, you can just TK youranzen RC

???

Isn't he going to be baiting your counter with 2D during a pressure string?

[Villainous]

Even if I could punish Sol for doing 2D, I don't trust Yozansen at all. I only do it like..after a j.H hit. But yeah, what do you guys don on wake up? Air tatami + _____ ?

[Hellmonkey]

1. ground string starting with 2K or 5P -after 5S or 5P you can mixup with youzansen or 2D for 5S and 2K for 5P -tick throw -bait mash with 2K, 2K -bait throw with 2K, 6K -for higher guardgauge jack end with 5HS and tatami/kabari/suzuran or do nothing, situational, suzuran being most dangerous, kabari being almost completely safe vs most of the cast. 2. whiff a normal, throw 3. do nothing, throw 4. TK youzansen 5. backdash to bait -long poke like 5S, 2S, jump j.D -chain or another tatami -iad or jump -run up or suzuran 6. block to bait -2K, throw, backdash, or iad if nothing comes out 7. normal/special to bait (2S baits shoryukens spaced right, 6HS baits high things if you do it early enough, to get the high invicible frames on them, chain baits most moves, tatami baits most moves, but not safe) -options change depending on what you do. 8. Throw bait deep 6K, invincible to throws the first 11 frames, be careful not to do the move too early or late because it's active on the 12th frame, and loses throw invincibility on the 11th, so you will get hit by fast HS's or get thrown if you time it wrong. 9. Jump up to bait mashing, j.HS or land and low or throw 10. IAD over them and j.S j.D or j.S land 2D or 2K 5S tatami (crouching) or whatever depending on spacing Some things are pretty character specific, like when you want to use chain. Spacing also makes a big difference in mixups you can do, more range makes you safer and allows you to use chain to bait things early or at the beginning of your string, but being closer allows you to throw and gatling into youzansen. After a kabari you can continue pressure with 2K for free against people with no shoryuken, since it's +2 frames, and 2S to poke if you're too far. Tetsuzansen, the followup to kabari, is invincible for some frames so it will bait any type of mash or move they throw out after a kabari, but it's not safe with no FRC if they block. Also good to do nothing or backdash to bait, and also to throw or tickthrow/whiffthrow after. Without the low tatami mat there your options change a bit. You have to be much more careful on their wakeup and IAD back mat, especially if they're in the corner, is really strong.

[rtl42]

in which situations is falling air tatami safe now? the landing recovery was increased, and i noticed that more Baiken players are doing falling air meaties after a far j.D knockdown. however, i still see iad.tatami (the really fast one) after throws, or even after some j.D knockdowns, but i can't quite gauge why some players go for meaty j.S/H (ad.P), and others go for falling tatami. why is 6H upper invincible. seriously, i had no idea.

[Hellmonkey]

I'm not sure if 6HS had high invicible frames before, but that invincibility is all that keeps it good right now, as it's pretty awful in combos now. Also the invincibility starts on frame 15 so it's pretty situational. low air tatami is always safe on their wakeup if you're there in time. Her low air meaties are very strong as well. You can low j.K -> j.D or 2K or throw or jump j.HS/whatever, or j.HS youzansen or low or throw etc. The changes to j.D helped her a lot there, and low meaties bait anything invincibile on wakeup which she has to be super careful of since she's paper. Also combos starting with j.HS are usually huge damage, as they're crouching and you can go into 5HS tatami FRC dustloop anywhere near the corner. Not to mention if they get hit by air tatami (it will be a late hit, not a launching hit) you get a free unprorated combo, which is always good ;D And to more specifically answer your question, if you meaty j.K or j.HS you can easily hit confirm their block or your hit and continue with blockstring or combo, but it's very hard to continue pressure after a low air tatami if they instant block, since you have to confirm it to bait any invincible moves they do.

[rtl42]

yeah 6H invincibility is new. i was just kinda saying "lol wtf" because it seems like yet another random change in this game that I don't understand (Slide Head has upper invul, Pot Buster has invul start-up, Jam's 6H is throw invul, now BA's 6H is upper invul, etc.).

thanks for the response, i'll have to work on that.

[Zakuta Asura]

Only had upper body invincibility after execution .__. Seems like a fine change to me. It's not like it's an overpowering change, like Jam's 6H and probably Potemkin's too. I do j.K meeteez

[SH_]

your example is prudent hellmonkey, but if you use VV a lot, it forces your opponent to figure out how to bait it, beat it, or just get around it, doesn't it? and if you are looking to become any better, you need more than just the one player anyhow, if they are just losing to VV when you play Sol, then they're not getting better fighting against Sol until they learn something basic like that anyhow and you won't really be able to get that much better until they put up more of a fight... Same with counters, if you just counter, don't know why, but you do it "sparringly" cause some faceless name on the internet told you to and it works, then why shouldn't they be doing it all the time (cause of course they never figured out why they shouldn't be doing it all the time for themselves), especially if it's working, also, when you started did you do the counters "sparringly" or did you spam them because you didn't know not to? (if you claim you didn't, I'ma call BS so you mine as well agree) and furthermore, on top of everything else, there are metagames and mind games that are very deep and intricate with counters that need to be learned for improvement and if they use them sparringly, then it either won't happen, or it will take several times as much longer... rebuttal? edit: I hadn't read villanous post yet, and I have a STRONG arguement with that, people who try and play "right" from day one often times miss MUCH of the things that come through a logical progression with the game, often times the japanese start with that strong basis, add on to it, and never really get away from their basic effective style of play when players from america who try and catch up fast (I'll admit, I was one of them for a LONG time) can prolly do huge flashy, big damage combos, do setups that you are told to do as opposed to your own (so you know they are good, you just don't know why, so when something else comes along then you don't know if you should use that instead because it would take you a while to ascertain the pro's and con's of the original setup to begin with), and on top of it all, it stunts you because you are trying to play above your head, and you may win against same level opponents like that for a little bit, but as soon as they start the improvement that'll come when someone wants to improve badly enough comes anyhow, then you will be at a large disadvantage... this is personal experience talking, I tried to play over my head for a while, and it REALLY hurt my understanding and growth in the game, so I had to change how I think, how I played, and what I did, and eventually didn't suck...

[Villainous]

Yeah, I get you on that. I played a lot with Baiken yesterday and got used to what's good for what situation fighting Eddie (which I gotta say, he seems a shit ton easier with Baiken than a lot of characters). Only thing I still couldn't figure out is a decent combo off of CH Ouren. Youshinjin is definitely my favorite though. Had a lot of luck with it and getting a CH isn't too hard with a good reaction time. Also got to see how bad Sakura is after hitting little Eddie with it and getting raped by EX drills. As long as I understand what's good for WHY, I should be straight. Seems pretty simple anyway. Youshinjin = No Meter Combos, good vs. air, and not as unsafe as sakura. Sakura = Invincible and a lot of damage for 25% meter, Ouren = GTFO of there move that never gets punished, and the other one = useless, except on occasion to maybe snag a throw. Oh yeah in that new Arcadia article, Baiken only has 2 bad matchups, Potemkin and Jam. Supposedly if it's not a typo, she has a 5.5 vs. Eddie, a 5.0 vs. testament (yet testaments says he's 4.0 vs. her, wtf?) and a lot of 5.5's and 6.0's. Why is jam a bad matchup for Baiken?

[Doomscyther]

If you know how to block testaments attacks and combos, he not as hard as others with baiken. Only reason I can see jam being a hard match up is because of the speed of her combos. And as for SH_ post. (if i misunderstand anything you said i apologize to baby kitten) To say that everyone who started out with baiken spammed counters, is BS. Just from simply playing other games, you can tell the counters are situational and that it can be baited over time. It all depends on who you are, simple as that. I think its better to ignore what most people say about a character, and actually just learn own your on, how to play that character. If you have the desire to improve you will come out better then anyone who just reads blah blah blah on a character, rather then the hrs of practicing , fighting against those actually match ups in person. (reading about /and/ fighting the match ups in person from someone who knows the character all out is 2 completely different things). Reading a matchup about how to fight testament < fighting a Pro Testament player (mr 3000, Fraley and this one dude I believe is from Planet Zero). Same goes for all the cast. You cant comprehend the scale of the match up if you never play against them. That all being said idk what you think, this IMO.Time to watch more one piece fillers.

[Hellmonkey]

Same with counters, if you just counter, don't know why, but you do it "sparringly" cause some faceless name on the internet told you to and it works, then why shouldn't they be doing it all the time (cause of course they never figured out why they shouldn't be doing it all the time for themselves), especially if it's working, also, when you started did you do the counters "sparringly" or did you spam them because you didn't know not to?

Because, like I've already said, their main use is to punish slower/high moves or to predict and punish gatlings or jumps etc. You will become a better player by being careful when you use them instead of throwing them out dangerously and/or stupidly, even if the opponent doesn't know how, or just doesn't, bait them. Your better bet is to try to poke them correctly and do successful oki, those are much bigger aspects to both baiken and the game itself, and will prove much more beneficial to the player than spamming guard cancels.

If you know how to block testaments attacks and combos, he not as hard as others with baiken. Only reason I can see jam being a hard match up is because of the speed of her combos.

Jam is a bad matchup for Baiken, and has been since Reload (at least). Jam's speed, parry(although not as much of a factor now), and most importantly her ability to do good damage off most anything she does, especailly with charged kicks which she can get due to her faster speed, all work against baiken. Jam does huge damage against all the characters, so Baiken just dies when she gets touched. Ability to bait/block baiken's counters easily and/or punish them really hard is a huge aspect to all of baiken's bad matchups. Without being able to use guard counters, she loses the one major factor she had working for her, which should be making up for her subpar speed, jump, and defense. This is why slayer, pot, and hos are also bad matchups, as they can either punish her really hard or have the speed or broken moves (lol slayer) to get through or around her guard cancels.

Yeah, I get you on that. I played a lot with Baiken yesterday and got used to what's good for what situation fighting Eddie (which I gotta say, he seems a shit ton easier with Baiken than a lot of characters). Only thing I still couldn't figure out is a decent combo off of CH Ouren. Youshinjin is definitely my favorite though. Had a lot of luck with it and getting a CH isn't too hard with a good reaction time. Also got to see how bad Sakura is after hitting little Eddie with it and getting raped by EX drills. As long as I understand what's good for WHY, I should be straight. Seems pretty simple anyway. Youshinjin = No Meter Combos, good vs. air, and not as unsafe as sakura. Sakura = Invincible and a lot of damage for 25% meter, Ouren = GTFO of there move that never gets punished, and the other one = useless, except on occasion to maybe snag a throw.

After a CH Ouren you should 5S jc j.D, if you have meter you can FRC the j.D air dash tatami and if you're close enough to a wall dustloop, if you're further iad again immediately and j.S j.D or j.P j.D etc. Youshijin is good against air but be careful because if they are low enough in the air they can land, block, and punish. Sakura is dangerous against eddie when little eddie is out, you should try your best not to get into block strings since it usually means death against him. If he has little eddie out you should stay back and tatami/chain/low j.S/2K to try and get rid of little eddie by hitting it or catching eddie himself. Getting in while little eddie is out is suicide. Ouren is great, so use it, but don't get in the habit of doing it EVERY time, since better players do know how to punish it hard (no invincibility, CH state, lol) and yes, the K counter's best use is to try and throw them off and grab them out of their string/poke. It's more useful against people who like to use slower moves in strings.

Oh yeah in that new Arcadia article, Baiken only has 2 bad matchups, Potemkin and Jam.

From what I've read on Japanese BBS, it seems like hos and slayer are considered slightly bad for her as well, as I mentioned. I have to agree with that.

[Doomscyther]

Hellmonkey, you have a great point about the jam, seeing how i witnessed PUffball loops on every character while doren2k was beasting her.

[SH_]

doomscyther... if you have experience in other games, of course what you know is gonna translate over, I'm just speaking on this was my first serious 2D game, and if you started from ground zero scrub style play, then you spammed them, if you were top 10 in 3S and you switch to gear, of course you aren't gonna do the dumb things cause you learned about them in other games or contexts... hellmonkey... when you started the game, were you already a player of other games... I'm talking to the baiken nubs out there who are just now figuring out that there's more to a game than learning their move list, that's what I was talking about but that being said, if your advice to someone is just "don't spam counters" I'd rather say "learn why not to spam counters", the point I've seen of the game is to do better and understand why so when you want to continue improvement, you have good grounds for which to start off with... oh, and since this is a baiken strat thread, I'd say do more j.K fuzzy guard cause all of you aren't doing it enough (/sarcasm), on the real, just hit the combos, take advantage of opportunities, and learn for yourself what to do...

[Hellmonkey]

Actually, Guilty Gear was my first fighting game, and Baiken/Eddie were my first characters. I'm giving this advice because it will save new players a lot of time, as opposed to scrubbing out and learning through that like you suggest. Not only will scrubbing out get boring, which it almost certainly will, but it won't help progress the level of play at all. The reason so many areas of America can't advance in skill level is because people are OK with scrubbing out and don't try to progress their level of gameplay. You shouldn't spam counters just like you shouldn't mash under pressure...

[SH_]

there in lies problem, if people are ok at playing at a scrubby level, they aren't prolly looking at this forum anyhow... if they wanna improve they're gonna do it through a mix of experience and advice, my advise is let the natural progression of things happen, counters aren't broken or nothing, there are things that beat counters, and their are counters to the counter's counter so let them find these things out... or to provide info, for instance, against Baiken's counters you can one hit at a time, the only time her counters would be dangerous if your opponent is doing the 1 hit, wait and see method is if he has 25% tension to do baku which is fast enough to catch a lot of things, especially off guard, if they are counter happy you can also range them out (with the appropriate character, Faust, Axl, certain summons for Zappa, ABA, etc.), you can also proceed to jump cancel your hits often (only attacking with JCable attacks, put them in guard stun, and jump in expectation of baku, or P counter), you also have interesting character specific counters that will work (with Ogawa v Sharon, Ogawa used a lot of 2S - breaking the law to try and bait out HS counter), since many baiken players are looking for the guard stun, feign the guard stun and throwing them is an effective tactic, you can also guard stun spam into safe super (for instance, Order Sol's 2S into level 2 fireball super) is an effective thing sometimes, you can also just make it so she doesn't block in the first place (a lot of first hit mixups, Eddie can unblockable)... that being said, for everything that I just said there is a counter (within reason, and excluding eddie unblockables, he's the best for a reason), now I whole heartidly think that there are people who are gonna look at my post, read it, and then draw a total blank, some people just gotta play to get the experience (I didn't learn shite from forums except that there are a bunch of people who will tellyou something is right even if it's clearly wrong) so my advice to them is to go out and play cause it's what you need more than these forums right now... also, everyone of you has an open invitation to play me at evo, I'll be there starting on the wed before, hit a nigga up, I'll be staying wit Vet...