Hellmonkey

Thanks for the HnK matches

I'm planning to make it to this, as I'm in New York now.

Great combos, cool video!

Hi Marble, welcome to the Baiken forum, glad to see another player here! Sorry for the somewhat delayed response. Indeed as you have figured out Baiken's combos are very specific based on how far they begin from the corner. There is no straightforward answer to your question about having an additional 25% meter, but I will point out some of the fundamentals that might help understand the trade-offs in that situation. I would like to point out first of all that just because you have 25% doesn't mean you should blow it on a combo. Particularly for characters with more health (i.e. lower damage modifier such as Robo-Ky), you might want to save that meter for a full combo if you land a hit after your knock-down (this situation is known as okizeme, or wake-up game). The damage you get from a reset into a full combo is significantly more than the small damage you tack on at the end of your combo. Furthermore, your meter gain is shunted for a while after using an RC or FRC, so that is another good reason not to throw them in unnecessarily. If you do want to blow that extra meter, the easiest solution is to find out which moves with low GB- you can throw in your combo. Particularly, 6H, j.D, 5H, j.H, and tatami are all great to use, and the full chart can be found in her frame data. For example, after landing near the corner you could add a rep with 6H j.D FRC airdash j.H j.tatami, but as you have noticed the side-switching can be tricky so you may have to jump forward or backwards, or adjust the combo timing as fits to ensure a knockdown. The exact timing and best move to use can be character specific due to differing weights. Generally it is a good idea to do a j.K jc j.H j.tatami repetition when available because it is free damage for zero meter. Typically a meterless option is your best bet in order to save that meter for a new combo, safe guard cancels, faultless defense to push them away and air-block, or even a super to make your killing blow unburstable.

What exactly are you having trouble with? I imagine Baiken could approach fairly easily from the ground or by run-jumping, if you guess correctly you'll avoid whichever projectile she threw out first. From there you have many options in the air or running up to them on the ground, like looking for a guard cancel or j.S or double jump j.H/airdash back tatami if you're in the air. j.S hitbox hits her from pretty much everywhere IIRC, and you can connect a j.D from correct positioning as well. It's pretty much a projectile dodging game and when you land hits it does boat loads of damage so you try not to waste your meter too much on FD.

Corner throw range concern Your'e correct, tatami straight from throw works at a decent range outside the corner. I like your running 5S followup, as I have been using 2D, and running 5S is a bit easier execution. You still need to be within range to have a c.5S instead of f.5S though, or you cannot continue tensionless. For example, if you knock down out of the corner with 6P suzuran zakuro, then throw them on their wakeup back into the corner, you can be close enough for a tatami but not close enough for the tensionless followup. This gives Baiken less range on her meterless throw combo than simply using running 2k 5s > dustloop like in AC, losing some range to +R. I don't think there is a solution as good as AC for this one, running 6P doesn't work at that range, nor 2k 6P. Also for Axl throw -> tatami or 6P doesn't work at all, but I found you can do running 5HS tatami and as long as you land the following j.K link you still get a knockdown (137 damage throw Axl) I don't know if an easier one exists for him. Stoneroth: There is another method of corner carrying if you don't like to j.tatami FRC (I personally use other tools over this one if I can) Running j.SD pick-up after low j.tatami From nearly full screen 25%: 6P j.K > jc j.H > j.tatami (low) > running j.SD FRC > airdash j.tatami > j.K > jc j.H > j.tatami (crossup) > 6P suzuran zakuro (195 dmg VE) From full screen 50%: 6P j.K jc j.H j.tatami running j.SD FRC airdash j.tatami sj.SD FRC airdash j.H tatami 6P suzuran zakuro (209 VE) This version doesn't work on the lighter characters, you're better off playing with j.K j.tatami or zakuro loop for them. If you're anywhere near the corner you can also go for tensionless: 6P j.K jc j.H j.tatami [running j.PK jc j.H j.tatami 6P suzuran zakuro.] I believe this is the "easiest" form of this combo, although running 5S or 2D to replace running j.P in the bracketed section both work on most hitboxes closer to the corner. The bracketed section of the combo can begin with: running j.PK, running 5S or 2D, or straight to (running, forward jump, or neutral jump) j.K based on the spacing. 6P> j.SD FRC > continue is always an option midscreen, although extremely hard to follow up as you get further from the corner. However, If you do decide to do a tension combo when in meterless-range, surely you should use 6P > (j.SD or j.D) FRC ad (j.tatami or j.h tatami) such that you land in front of them for a 6H > 2D, or straight 6H for the characters easy to follow up with j.K > jc j.H j.tatami and maintain your knockdown. Want to blow all your meter? For even further meter usage, use 6H j.D frc j.H j.tatami instead of going to j.K jc j.H j.tatami repetition. Difficulty compared to other full-screen options? I haven't found great bnb combos using wallbounce - kabari in full to mid screen, i feel like her other variations are more stable. I haven't played enough with j.tatami FRC combos to know all their benefits, but perhaps this is the best stable option for even more ranges. I also haven't compared the damages yet but they should be similar. The run-jump timing can be quite sensitive, as well as delaying j.H and j.tatami timings as required, although these are quite easy to adjust to once you get intuition from trying the combos. The j.H j.tatami is very fundamental to her combos IMO. Combo discussion? As for where all this discussion belongs, I think it's fine to have combo and strategy discussion in this thread until (and if) we establish an official +R guide. +R combos do not seem anywhere near as straightforward as AC. I can merge combo related information away once a guide is completed.

I've been playing around with it more and I see what you mean about suzuran sakura FRC being too range dependent. It probably isn't worth investigating too closely except for some cool looking combos as you say. One exception is using 75% to sakura FRC suzuran baku > followup to get the Baku effect from even a 2K. FB tatami FRC seems like a much better option for this situation but I'm not sure about a reliable followup from many distances, as it seems quite character specific. I like using airdash low hitting j.H which gives you a ton of time to follow up, but will require some more meter to continue the combo in many cases. There are some other combo problems I've run into, like finding a reliable corner throw combo on venom due to not being able to tatami directly from throw. Running 2K 6P suzuran zakuro works, as well as youshijin run 6P suzuran zakuro if you're deep, but if you're spaced a bit from the wall I don't know if a great tensionless solution exists. @Stoneroth I'll look into 6P antiair combos as well when I get more time for training mode.

Thanks for the great post Shinjin, definitely looking forward to the new video! Have you played much with FB Tatami FRC? I'm not yet sure what the best option is from a far 5H, perhaps suzuran sakura FRC could lead to better options.

I've played around with +R Baiken in training, but haven't had enough experience against people to write up a meaningful new guide for +R. Most of the new stuff has been mentioned in forum posts. Most of the hitboxes are the same as AC although she has new tools, to name a few: - suzuran into counters without blocking - faster antiair counter but loss of youshijin. -sped up sakura but no strike invincibility. -j.K jc j.H j.tatami meterless combos. -6P -> suzuran 412p ender for knockdowns at the end of combos -2K>6P>6K links -6H damage un-nerfed And some changes of hers: -no fast universal youshijin counter, has to sakura against ground or 412p against airborne. -mawarikomi nerfed (presumably because she can now 63214K suzuran -> counter without blocking) -j.D can be recovered from much more quickly than previously Unfortunately I can't say which of her new tools are the most useful, however in the games I have played I found she has to spend meter more often than before to get knockdowns in the corner, and her midscreen combos are harder to execute. Her potential near the corner seems to be higher and using airdash j.H j.tatami works from many heights now. You still get huge damage from youzansen RC combos near the corner, so her 50/50 is really good with 2k and youzansen (overhead). kabari (chain) now has a sliding hit which I don't really like compared to the old normal hit, but it does still allow you to pick up after for a combo. j.D is still a great zoning tool even if it doesn't have as much untechable time as AC, and 2S still has its great hitbox. Her corner combo changed quite a bit, now it's usually throw>tatami mat>2D>j.K>jc>j.H>j.tatami>6p(away from wall)>suzuran(63214K)>zakuro (new 214P cancel)

Huge Ogawa set @ http://www.twitch.tv/joniosan/b/506727453?t=61m Zato is looking awesome. Love the new combo in the corner into 5D > wallstick > 2D > 2s 5s 5h drill. Mid screen 5H(3) drill looks so good. New gallery combos are great, especially from the unblockable j.H + eddie drill.

Sorry for the confusion, there is no way I know of to jump install your super-jumps from neutral. I have yet to find a common situation that would require jump installing on Baiken. I was just referring to using a normal jump -> j.D (usually run-jump for spacing), and jumping at the lowest possible height similar to the timing of an airdash in her old dustloops. You can mix this up with neutral SJ>j.D if you plan to airdash at the lowest possible height instead, as it will get your j.D out where you want it slightly quicker. The Safety option here would be airdash back j.S. If you do airdash at them like this you might be too low for a j.s j.tatami (Greedy, as it's not a guaranteed string anyways. Really only useful for fishing for counter-hits from higher up) so you might consider j.S(delay)PK to hit the j.K as low as possible to negate the landing recovery by keeping them in blockstun as long as possible. Airdashing with a j.P could be a better option if they're close enough. In this situation going for the low j.K > j.D is not as strong as a mixup because you can't land and immediately 2K/2D.

Just to add on to the Youzansen discussion, there are a number of moves that give landing recovery after being used in the air and this can always be negated by double jumping, but never by airdashing. j.D is the best example of this (universal), which you may have noticed from baiken's dustloops in previous games. Technically it could be possible to negate youzansen's landing recovery by jump installing so even if you get the superjump youzansen you could still do something like RC j.K > double jump, however if you're going to be blowing the meter after youzansen for a combo from mid screen you probably just want to j.(S)D FRC airdash tatami. If you're already in the corner, you can go more directly into her corner loop, throwing in 6H depending on the spacing. The one area of this game this actually does have a big impact on is the use of j.D from neutral, which is very strong in general due to its hitbox and speed. By timing your double jump before landing, you can reduce the risk of getting capitalized on from the landing recovery, and in fact if an opponent seeks to punish you it can open up offensive options like airdashing at them low to the ground when they think you might not be able to act in time.

I've been pretty busy, and it's hard to tell the turnout at these events. Definitely plan to make it out there tomorrow then.

Anyone gonna make it this week for GG?

I'll try to make it to this tomorrow

zakuro/youshijin loop Looks like this works for robo, pot and johnny. The testsuzansen follow (which is S not H) doesn't work on johnny and is very hard on robo. The testsuzansen followup adds a whole 1 damage over the youshijin after kabari version. It's hard to land the 6P into kabari on pot unless you're really point blank As the commentary points out in the video (in japanese), this gives some good meter gain. zakuro 2d j.d That is a nice tip for raw zakuro or zakuro CH into 2d j.D. It knocks down on all characters but robo-ky, who falls out too far to connect j.D. You can follow up with 2d j.D FRC 23656K 2d j.sd FRC ad j.h j.tatami 6p zakuro (168 on Chipp, versus 115 from just 2d j.d). Interestingly, it's identical between CH or normal zakuro because the first hit doesn't have any damage or GB- associated with it. For comparison, a 50% combo: zakuro FRC 6h 2d j.s j.d FRC airdash mat j.k jc j.h j.tatami 6p zakuro is 197 damage. So it's definitely a good option for both meterless and if you want to spend 50% with the corner carry and you missed the FRC. The downside is the link to 2d j.D is pretty tight, and to finish the combo requires good timing on airdash mat and run 2D near the corner. The other reason not to always use this is because the zakuro knockdown is pretty nice by itself as opposed to blowing them across the screen with j.D. safe jump FYI you can safe jump with j.P, j.K or j.S as well, it's just a matter of timing yourself to land within a couple frames of them waking up. It is particularly easy with j.H because you don't have to worry about timing the j.H input much due to the long active frames. Remember to hold down back when you're landing next to them for the auto-block. j.P can be nice against more experienced players for this, as they will be holding back after inputting their special in case they miss the timing for reversal, and also gives them less time to react to what you do in the air. A blocked j.P (or j.K) will give them less time to react and might get you a free throw. It is specifically nice to use iad j.H if you're going into the corner for this because you can actually get a crossup j.H that catches everyone off guard. Slashback-dash can increase the likelihood of this happening (slashback during your instant airdash startup to travel further) 'abare' j.h CH The last example with j.H j.236k is just a horrible missed opportunity for damage. He should have done 5H tatami into j.H tatami loop instead of ending early into zakuro. It had a bit of guard gauge raised and started with CH j.H, it should be massive damage or at least force a burst. Thank you for all of the wonderful video links and pointing out these pieces with time stamps! Saved me a lot of time so I could try it out in training mode instead of sifting through the videos again myself.

When it comes to meaty attacks, hitting that few frame window is actually not that hard with practice. It's easier than even timing reversal backdash in most cases if you have the 4121(+whatever you might want to do afterward if you don't counter) and option select button muscle memory. The hardest characters to deal with on oki with Baiken are Jam (5k OP), and characters with strong first-time mixup like Millia's everything or I-no dashing gimmicks. Other hard specific cases are Zappa with dog to cover, Potemkin with heat and long potbuster range, Venom if he covers with balls, Dizzy with summons, or Johnny with coins and good spacing.

Played with it a bit and baiken can 100% counter any 3h with sakura. She can also CH even a 2k by itself. Sakura OP. The muscle memory is totally different than before since you need to S-> K or S -> P (S->H gives you slashback, so no option selecting along with ouren sadly). Also mawarikomi and zakuro are really bad to throw out randomly as zakuro whiffs against so much and mawarikomi is hilariously bad now, so you want to make sure only to let go of FD with S.

DW is correct, you can option select all guard cancel options, and specifically instant guard cancel options (you buffer the 412 motion) using negative edge or immediately cancelling the button into FD (which then gives you yet another attempt if you selectively negative edge after FDing). The technique is discussed in the baiken guide. I'll test out Ky vs Baiken oki when I get some free time for some more insight. So you can apply this with Sakura now, as she no longer has youshijin counter.

I'm not entirely sure why you're posting videos against the cpu. Good luck on improving your Baiken though!

Awesome idea, good luck with this stickbug! Sadly, I probably will be working and likely wouldn't be able to make it.

To maximize your damage off kabari, try using 6H during the slide on air hit or tetsuzansen FRC 6H on bigger hitboxes.

The game is designed to be played on a joystick. There are a lot of inputs in GG that are unnecessarily difficult on pad or keyboard compared to joystick, you practically never have the same level of control with a d-pad or controller analog stick that you get with your wrist and a ball top. The macros are there for convenience but don't exist in the arcade version of the game that Guilty Gear is designed for. Pressing multiple buttons at once is a very fundamental part of GG (fautless defense, roman cancel, option selecting) . If the macros were to be banned it would be because they affect the game too much when abused. If you can't accept why this might be necessary, just don't enter the tournaments that ban macros. I haven't seen anywhere close to enough evidence to actually ban it yet though.

Yeah this bug is really OP for baiken in particular. She could already get out of okizeme using 4121 motion on wakeup, but not completely safe. Previously as an example, Baiken is knocked down and inputs 4121 (input for counter and hold down back). She wakes up blocking down back. The next frame she presses 2S to attempt a Sakura counter. You cancel your 2S with a second button (P or K) in case you didn't end up countering. You then release the S button of your FD and get another attempt to sakura if you blocked after starting your FD. This will achieve two quick inputs for her guard cancel. If you held your FD for 3 frames you get 1f blocking > 1f counter attempt/vulnerability > 3f FDing > counter attempt(safe). You can then go to up back and pressing your counter button again for a 1f jump. Full input> 4121S>1f>K>>7S If you choose to use this bug you can just input 4121 and hold the macro button. Completely safe counter attempt that will beat out the majority of meaties in the game. It is weak to low hit stop moves and many projectiles. Some characters have basically no oki on her because of this. edit- after actually trying to use the bug, I don't think it really impacts much. Baiken special priority is zakuro > mawarikomi > sakura so you have to hold the extra buttons while you hold the macro anyways, it's not that useful. Zakuro just isn't a universal counter like Youshijin was and mawarikomi isn't great for this. Don't worry though, counters are still OP. As for youzansen, you usually don't want a 9f youzansen since a little extra height gives her more time to confirm for the RC tatami and it has landing recovery now anyways.

AC has been out and available for the better part of a decade. +R is not even released in the US yet. I think you will find that when you get her bnb down in +R, it is still quite universal just like her combos in AC. You will need 2-3 different versions of combos based on opponent weight and height with a few exceptions. Given that she has many new tools (e.g. suzuran into counters, FB tatami, late hit from ground tatami making it safer) and so many new combo routes with new j.h/tatami and 6H buffs, it seems a bit premature to give up on the character. A good combo to start out with is corner 2k 5s 5h tatami 2d j.s j.d frc airdash j.h j.tatami (land and they cross up) 6P suzuran>zakuro.