[CP] Carl Clover Gameplay Discussion (Changelog in OP)

[Psykotik]

Could you be so kind and tell me where i can chek the leaderboards?

http://sp.bbcp.ac/ranking_view.php?mode=exe&type=psr_rank&couse=&charactor=ca&pref=0

[wiredgod]

I'm picking up this character for CP, but would like to get some experience in during the lengthy wait. How easy will it be to transition from CSE Carl to CP Carl?

[Psykotik]

IMO, it should be a fairly smooth transition. Carl's biggest change to get used to is his new combo routes. Aside from that, the only real change that I could use tripping people up is 5B being non-jump-cancellable on block and that's more of a muscle memory issue than anything else. The only things that won't transfer from EX to CP Carl are some combos so if you want to pick up him up now to get ready for CP, by all means, go for it.

I'd also recommend learning his DP-safe unblockable setups right now. Although the CP UB setup is a bit different from the EX setups, if you can learn to do his unblockables in EX, you'll pick up the new UB combo very quickly in CP.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Psykotik

[Narcastic]

Still, im going to miss EXT Carl. That was the most complete Carl until now that i played.

aye, Ext carl is the best so far.

anyway, been watching dio playing carl on jourdals channel. I guess this should give us some insight about carl movement and setup so far.

[Raiza57]

Shiro asked me to bring something up, because he is an asshole

His damage is ~4k from random get-in's, 5k from croussups, and 4.5k from our UB... this is looking very good.

With that said, I'm also wondering about the max damage from a 4D starter. There might be been some hidden change in 4D's P1 but then again, I also share the same feeling that 4D can probably lead into more than 3k.

Lol more than 4k.. pfff we breaking 4k easy with a 4D starter. Im calling it now.

4D>6C Charged>5c>Brio>jb>jb>jc>2D or 6D>j2c>jb>jb>jc>volante>5c>jb>jb>jc>8D 4.7K

Akira, I'd actually suggest to you that you leave the damage values as unknown for your suggested combos for the time being; in most of the videos we've seen so far, Carl's already struggling to break 4k off 5B without a crush trigger or Val Tedo, let alone 5k. We don't even have the new proration data yet so we still don't know his attack damage values yet. I stand corrected about the lack of data. Thanks for the data, Errol.

Lol im still seeing us being in the 5k and over club.

PS: we S-tier.. japs are just being free.

"Yea,, Carl can't get 5k Psykotik?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q32XJu5LPQo

"Don't be doubting my Proration ability, I can eyeball a 5k combo from a mile away"

~With love, Akira-Shiro

[Psykotik]

What an asshole lol. I'll hold that one though.

[sinder]

Lol miss that guy

Wish he would just make an alt so we could have some discussion again <_<

[Raiza57]

He already did that, the admins banned that one aswell. Said they were "Reinforcing the rules" tbh its probably just because they hate him. On another note,

Shiro says

"Even tho I may not be here, im always watching you ALL OF YOU " #stalker

[Psykotik]

Likewise, tell Shiro I know where he's watching us from

[Raiza57]

Shiro wanted ya'll to know that from the looks of the Leaderboard, it seems that Ito Clover is no longer a player. His name is not on there anymore, and even if he simply changed it his information would at least still be there. Not only that, but his shadow accounts are gone as well. (He had 2)

[sinder]

Shiro wanted ya'll to know that from the looks of the Leaderboard, it seems that Ito Clover is no longer a player. His name is not on there anymore, and even if he simply changed it his information would at least still be there. Not only that, but his shadow accounts are gone as well. (He had 2)

that explains why every CP video added here with Carl is ass

I'm thinking about switching to Azrael until they do something about this meter problem

or these guys aren't doing good enough combos. Carl seems to be one trick pony status again with the <-- --> D "unblockable reset" into a Crush Trigger combo

Seriously, that's the only way most Carl's are winning in CP

Edited July 4, 2013 by sinder

[Raiza57]

that explains why every CP video added here with Carl is ass

I'm thinking about switching to Azrael until they do something about this meter problem

or these guys aren't doing good enough combos. Carl seems to be one trick pony status again with the <-- --> D "unblockable reset" into a Crush Trigger combo

Seriously, that's the only way most Carl's are winning in CP

"+Our Neutral Game was buffed hella Hard. Volante Launches on hit (Blocking an attack, then the enemy gets hit. But your still in hitstun, and they are still at frame advantage can no longer happen since they get lifted.), and we have La Tenerraza (This move, is self exclamatory)

+Our damage from our crossups was buffed,, hell, our damage was buffed over all.

+Anima now has a purpose in game.. other than Bursting 70 feet in the air and grabbing them while they attack and whiff.

+ We can now break guards on even terms with everyone else in the cast (Something we could never really exploit in any other variation).

+CT makes some of our unsafe enders (3c) semi dangerous to punish. Example: Opponent blocks 3c and tries to attack, we gattling CT and they take 5k like a boss =/

+Carl has Ada health regenerating combos (Something he should have always had from the jump)

+We have legit Okezemi, not that bullshit 0 blockstun volante crap.

+Our 5c is jump cancelable which, again, makes our neutral game and mixup options more dangerous/ambiguos/harder to block

+OD (Which after being used, automatically gives 25% of the burst meter back after deactivation regardless of how long it was activated) gives us guaranteed damage/possible health lead situations, which are very important in our hardest matchups.

Also means it is more benifitial to use OD since, as a Carl player, I have always found Burst fucking useless. We burst, which sends the enemy flying to the opposite side of the screen, which now means we need to play neural (Which is Carls worst trait ever) just to catch them meaning wasting Ada health and risking our health.

Id rather use my burst to make it so their burst is useless for a little while.

All of this,, and you are saying we need to rely on the UB loop to win. Your silly, Anima mixup is going to fuck niggas lives up.

Also to address the issue of meter, average Carl combos give us 25 meter, which is a lot in this variation. Since heat now follows a rule of, The longer the combo the less heat you receive. With that logic at hand, one would have to look through the frame Data and see which moves give Carl the most amount of Heat, then try to perform them during the beginning of a combo and chain them together. Which would mean that Heat orientated combos and Damage orientated combos our going to be very different. Which is going to add a lot of unique-ness to each persons' style of play. 'Will he do a combo to get 35heat but only do 3k, or do a combo that gains 25heat but nets 5k. The only characters who seem to be able to do both at the same time because their character design is stupid, would be Izayoi and Hazama"

~With love, Shiro

PS. Our character is a God among insects. Do not doubt the Carl. The Japanese are just free.

#Carl's 5k and over Club

MEMBERS ONLY

[sinder]

"*blah blah blah* theory

ok, we said all of this in the beginning after we established that Carl wasn't ass, but now it's looking as if that all doesn't matter

don't worry though because this game will be coming this way, and if they Japanese really are "free (which they aren't) then maybe they're doing things that could be done differently

but the fact that I don't even look forward to psyk's vid updates anymore worries me since everybody is getting bodied regardless. If Ryuusei and Ito didn't jump off the Carl train I wouldn't even be saying this, plus we all know why Ryuusei dropped Carl...

[Psykotik]

ok, we said all of this in the beginning after we established that Carl wasn't ass, but now it's looking as if that all doesn't matter

don't worry though because this game will be coming this way, and if they Japanese really are "free (which they aren't) then maybe they're doing things that could be done differently

but the fact that I don't even look forward to psyk's vid updates anymore worries me since everybody is getting bodied regardless. If Ryuusei and Ito didn't jump off the Carl train I wouldn't even be saying this, plus we all know why Ryuusei dropped Carl...

Both of the Itos are still on the leaderboards. Ito Ikutaro is still sitting on a solid 15th dan ranking while Ito Sae/Clover/whatever-the-hell-he-goes-by probably changed his name to SP Cayden (his stats on the card matchup). That said, it's pretty annoying to see most of the top ranking Carls changing their names so often. Barring Ikutaro, it can be pretty hard to get a handle on who's who.

EDIT: I just did a little research. SP Cayden is indeed Itoh Sae.

Not only that, but his shadow accounts are gone as well. (He had 2)

Shadow accounts? I wasn't aware that Ito had any, do you remember the names?

BTW, you can change your actual name on the leaderboards and not just your secondary information which explains why "Ito Clover" is no longer on the leaderboard.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Psykotik

[Raiza57]

ok, we said all of this in the beginning after we established that Carl wasn't ass, but now it's looking as if that all doesn't matter

don't worry though because this game will be coming this way, and if they Japanese really are "free (which they aren't) then maybe they're doing things that could be done differently.

So, you seem to not see why every Carl excluding maybe 5 are extremely free. Majority of the other Carls do one of these things.

1.Dont optimize combos (Even tho Dio doesnt to this, I excused him) 2.Do not perform a 8D oki ender 3.Dont use proper crossups(Seriously, why not use crossup 4D/anima) 4.Do not use La tenerreza (This idk even know why the fuck they wouldnt spam this) 5.Cant hitconfirm for a damn (Like seriously dropping hitconfirms and not optimizing from them) 6.Still think 5B is Jump cancelable on block

But moving away from what they did wrong, there are still some things you need to take into account. Was the Carl playing a bad matchup? I stalk all of Carls videos every single last one. I have my own Nico account so that I could look at the ones Jordal doesnt post. Majority of the time I see Carl, which is rare since he is an underused character, he usually ends up fighting Valk, Haku, Rachel, litchi, Tao(FAR TO OFTEN) Mu, and Jin which are all bad matchups for Carl. Then there are the other times he is fighting someone who isnt a bad matchup,, and the Carl player is just free as hell and gets outplayed.

Tell you what, you find me a video of Carl losing that doesnt have any of the these characters: Valk, Haku, Rachel, Litchi, Tao, Mu, Jin and I can tell you exactly why it is that they lost. However, if you can prove to me that Carl is just losing because he is linear, I believe the term you used was "One trick pony". And I will gladly wire you $30.

Both of the Itos are still on the leaderboards. Ito Ikutaro is still sitting on a solid 15th dan ranking while Ito Sae/Clover/whatever-the-hell-he-goes-by probably changed his name to SP Cayden (his stats on the card matchup). That said, it's pretty annoying to see most of the top ranking Carls changing their names so often. Barring Ikutaro, it can be pretty hard to get a handle on who's who.

Ahh, I see. My mistake.

EDIT: I just did a little research. SP Cayden is indeed Itoh Sae.

Shadow accounts? I wasn't aware that Ito had any, do you remember the names?

BTW, you can change your actual name on the leaderboards and not just your secondary information which explains why "Ito Clover" is no longer on the leaderboard.

You wish I cared lol enough to remember.

~Shiro.

Edit: Or Just watch Ito body the world(Like 25 fights total, of Ito bodying everyone) http://www.twitch.tv/akira_shiro/b/406208116

Edited July 6, 2013 by Raiza57

[Raiza57]

Is no one going to take shiros offer??? He said its for everyone, Shit. Let a nigga toss free money my way. Imma take that this, yall niggas crazy.

[JG]

that explains why every CP video added here with Carl is ass

I'm thinking about switching to Azrael until they do something about this meter problem

or these guys aren't doing good enough combos. Carl seems to be one trick pony status again with the <-- --> D "unblockable reset" into a Crush Trigger combo

Seriously, that's the only way most Carl's are winning in CP

Carl in Cp isn't a one trick pony, his mixup and crossup option are better than before, in a sense that they can catch the opponent more easily and is more easy to hitconfirm and perform the combo after it. But, like you said... his issue is the nirvana gaugue, more than that i think what really hurt Carl in CP is the lack of cantabille combos, with them you can let Nirvana rest and even recharge.

So, you seem to not see why every Carl excluding maybe 5 are extremely free. Majority of the other Carls do one of these things.

1.Dont optimize combos (Even tho Dio doesnt to this, I excused him) 2.Do not perform a 8D oki ender 3.Dont use proper crossups(Seriously, why not use crossup 4D/anima) 4.Do not use La tenerreza (This idk even know why the fuck they wouldnt spam this) 5.Cant hitconfirm for a damn (Like seriously dropping hitconfirms and not optimizing from them) 6.Still think 5B is Jump cancelable on block

But moving away from what they did wrong, there are still some things you need to take into account. Was the Carl playing a bad matchup? I stalk all of Carls videos every single last one. I have my own Nico account so that I could look at the ones Jordal doesnt post. Majority of the time I see Carl, which is rare since he is an underused character, he usually ends up fighting Valk, Haku, Rachel, litchi, Tao(FAR TO OFTEN) Mu, and Jin which are all bad matchups for Carl. Then there are the other times he is fighting someone who isnt a bad matchup,, and the Carl player is just free as hell and gets outplayed.

Tell you what, you find me a video of Carl losing that doesnt have any of the these characters: Valk, Haku, Rachel, Litchi, Tao, Mu, Jin and I can tell you exactly why it is that they lost. However, if you can prove to me that Carl is just losing because he is linear, I believe the term you used was "One trick pony". And I will gladly wire you $30.

Ahh, I see. My mistake.

You wish I cared lol enough to remember.

~Shiro.

Edit: Or Just watch Ito body the world(Like 25 fights total, of Ito bodying everyone) http://www.twitch.tv/akira_shiro/b/406208116

Dio never was a player that used the better combos, he just do weird stuff.

About 8]D[ Oki.... it depend on where are you at the screen. If you are doing the combo in the corner, is more viable to use the 2]D[+ 2A/2B/j.A Oki setup. The reason is because a well timmed 2]D[ + 2A/2B in the corner is like an option select, 2]D[ will catch the opponent jumping, 2A / 2B will whiff if the opponent try to do a DP/DD or will hit the opponent if he try to roll out, 2]D[ + j.A is like a Fuzzy guard with 50/50 and! if the opponent do nothing, he will be forced to block either 2]D[ or 2A/2B/j.A, resulting in him being at lockdown again.

5C being jump cancellable on block isn't a big deal, and maybe is more like a nerf compared to 5B jump cancelable on block. One of the magic that 5B jump cancelable on block has, was using it with 6]D[. If you do 5B, jump, with 6]D[ you can do a high/low mixup game.... similar to the one we have now in CP with 5C. But! if you do 5B, jump and very quickly do 6]D[ you will cross-up the opponent and also being able to do a high/low mixup, even do thing like cross-up instant air backdash, j.B, j.C, land etc. Oh well, is nice to know that at least 5B is jump cancellable on hit and we can still do this.

The reason why we think that Carl is free is because the lack of top player with him. They just disappear or switch to another character, without Kyaku, Ryuusei, Ranrero, Eesuke and the other one from a-cho that i always forgot, is kinda hard to expect to see a good Carl wining. I still remember Kyaku at godgarden or Ryuusei at the tachikawa tourneys.... good old times.

What worry me is that Relius is considered better than Carl in CP. Well i still think that CP Carl is very good, but not as good as EXT Carl was.

*Quick note, that same Oki can be done in EXT, so Carl Oki on corner is just sick.

Edited July 9, 2013 by JG

[Raiza57]

More than that i think what really hurt Carl in CP is the lack of cantabille combos, with them you can let Nirvana rest and even recharge.

About 8]D[ Oki.... it depend on where are you at the screen. If you are doing the combo in the corner, is more viable to use the 2]D[+ 2A/2B/j.A Oki setup. The reason is because a well timmed 2]D[ + 2A/2B in the corner is like an option select, 2]D[ will catch the opponent jumping, 2A / 2B will whiff if the opponent try to do a DP/DD or will hit the opponent if he try to roll out, 2]D[ + j.A is like a Fuzzy guard with 50/50 and! if the opponent do nothing, he will be forced to block either 2]D[ or 2A/2B/j.A, resulting in him being at lockdown again.

5C being jump cancellable on block isn't a big deal, and maybe is more like a nerf compared to 5B jump cancelable on block. One of the magic that 5B jump cancelable on block has, was using it with 6]D[. If you do 5B, jump, with 6]D[ you can do a high/low mixup game.... similar to the one we have now in CP with 5C. But! if you do 5B, jump and very quickly do 6]D[ you will cross-up the opponent and also being able to do a high/low mixup, even do thing like cross-up instant air backdash, j.B, j.C, land etc. Oh well, is nice to know that at least 5B is jump cancellable on hit and we can still do this.

*Quick note, that same Oki can be done in EXT, so Carl Oki on corner is just sick.

Yes the whole 2D oki is very good, didnt say it wasnt and the 2D oki is still possible from an 8D ender so that still does nothing against my original argument. People dont use 8D oki ender for some absurd reason. Also the mixup portion doesn't really count if people dont respect and try to roll. An Volante oki was merely a filler for our shitty 6D. 6D oki was far superior to volante, the only issue was 6D gave a crappy combo starter. But now that it causes sliding it can be used, and unlike volante which has like 0hitstun our 6D will stop a roll and put them in hitstun so we can do stuff like empty jump low. Or empty jump IAD jb gimmicks.. which are very strong tools over all.

[JG]

Yes the whole 2D oki is very good, didnt say it wasnt and the 2D oki is still possible from an 8D ender so that still does nothing against my original argument. People dont use 8D oki ender for some absurd reason. Also the mixup portion doesn't really count if people dont respect and try to roll. An Volante oki was merely a filler for our shitty 6D. 6D oki was far superior to volante, the only issue was 6D gave a crappy combo starter. But now that it causes sliding it can be used, and unlike volante which has like 0hitstun our 6D will stop a roll and put them in hitstun so we can do stuff like empty jump low. Or empty jump IAD jb gimmicks.. which are very strong tools over all.

I don't think that volante oki is crappy, is just an option. That move is very good at baiting DP and also amazing for tick throws. I know that 6]D[ in Cp is better for that, but like all the option that Carl have, one should alternate between then.

2]D[ oki indeed is posible from 8]D[, but is more easy to do it after a j.C than an 8]D[. Also is more viable to do the j.A fuzzy guard setup.

Edited July 9, 2013 by JG

[Raiza57]

I don't think that volante oki is crappy, is just an option. That move is very good at baiting DP and also amazing for tick throws. I know that 6]D[ in Cp is better for that, but like all the option that Carl have, one should alternate between then.

2]D[ oki indeed is posible from 8]D[, but is more easy to do it after a j.C than an 8]D[. Also is more viable to do the j.A fuzzy guard setup.

The 2D oki option, it only works in the corner. And Jc enders do not make the 2D oki easier. Jc removes the UB possibility, it stops you from baiting the roll into 2D combo, it also makes it impossible to bait DP's and still be on the offensive.

[JG]

The 2D oki option, it only works in the corner. And Jc enders do not make the 2D oki easier. Jc removes the UB possibility, it stops you from baiting the roll into 2D combo, it also makes it impossible to bait DP's and still be on the offensive.

At certain height, after j.C, it make the 2]D[ oki more easy to execute, that is because you have to be at a height enough that if you throw the 2]D[ it will catch the opponent when they try to jump out. j.C can remove the UB possibility only if you want to, if you want your setup to cover DP/DD, roll and jumping you will no be able to do the UB, maybe a quick low->high but you still be forcing the lockdown on the opponent or hitconfirm into a combo. If you want the UB (2]D[ + some low), you will have to delay a little bit the 2]D[, in that case is very probable that you loose the DP/DD safe thing and the opponent can just jump at wakeup. Im not saying that doing the last setup is bad, is jut that one should alternate this kind of thing.

It doesn't make impossible to bait DP and still be on the offensive, because if the opponent throw the DP, your 2B or 2A will whiff and you will be able to punish him, that is the magic of this setup. Keep in mind that the timing is very strict for getting this effect.

[sinder]

Is no one going to take shiros offer??? He said its for everyone, Shit. Let a nigga toss free money my way. Imma take that this, yall niggas crazy.

Ok, super late reply

for every video where there was the UB setup into combo there was a mixup so you couldn't really use any... unfortunately I'll just give this win to Shiro

HOWEVER!!!!!!

The MAIN reasons why these Carl players were not winning was because of their lack of crossups/mixups, which I just noticed while looking at vids again :3 which hurts my eyes since Carl should be abusing vivace/anything dumbT

Also, I agree with the lack of terreza being dumb since that move is what actually gets the most wins. The other reasons you posted were phooey and you don't really need to optimize combos with Carl in CP because of 46D's incredible properties

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y31a_lmfXdA&feature=youtu.be&t=2m52s <----- I didn't even notice the damage potential until I had to look at the videos AGAIN but more importantly look at the position it puts your opponent. If used properly it sets them up for another crossup/combo attempt, which few players aren't focusing their attention on

So this all means that Carl doesn't need the UB setup alone to win, but most Carl players were losing because of their lack of mixup attemps, period.

[Raiza57]

Ok, super late reply

for every video where there was the UB setup into combo there was a mixup so you couldn't really use any... unfortunately I'll just give this win to Shiro

HOWEVER!!!!!!

The MAIN reasons why these Carl players were not winning was because of their lack of crossups/mixups, which I just noticed while looking at vids again :3 which hurts my eyes since Carl should be abusing vivace/anything dumbT

Also, I agree with the lack of terreza being dumb since that move is what actually gets the most wins. The other reasons you posted were phooey and you don't really need to optimize combos with Carl in CP because of 46D's incredible properties

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y31a_lmfXdA&feature=youtu.be&t=2m52s <----- I didn't even notice the damage potential until I had to look at the videos AGAIN but more importantly look at the position it puts your opponent. If used properly it sets them up for another crossup/combo attempt, which few players aren't focusing their attention on

So this all means that Carl doesn't need the UB setup alone to win, but most Carl players were losing because of their lack of mixup attemps, period.

Point being, JAPANESE ARE FREE!!!!!!!

[Raiza57]

At certain height, after j.C, it make the 2]D[ oki more easy to execute, that is because you have to be at a height enough that if you throw the 2]D[ it will catch the opponent when they try to jump out. j.C can remove the UB possibility only if you want to, if you want your setup to cover DP/DD, roll and jumping you will no be able to do the UB, maybe a quick low->high but you still be forcing the lockdown on the opponent or hitconfirm into a combo. If you want the UB (2]D[ + some low), you will have to delay a little bit the 2]D[, in that case is very probable that you loose the DP/DD safe thing and the opponent can just jump at wakeup. Im not saying that doing the last setup is bad, is jut that one should alternate this kind of thing.

It doesn't make impossible to bait DP and still be on the offensive, because if the opponent throw the DP, your 2B or 2A will whiff and you will be able to punish him, that is the magic of this setup. Keep in mind that the timing is very strict for getting this effect.

THe 8D ender into 2D does all of that stuff at the same time JG....... So there is no need. You change your game plan based on what they did.

If they roll 2b>5B>2D combos

If they Quick get up 2B>5B>2D resets them

If they wake up immediately, (Whether they have a DP or not is very important at this point) you can pull off an UB setup with delay 5B>2B>3c or 2B>5B>6B.

Or if they emergency tech, do nothing and let them block the 2D so you can go into the JB fuzzy.

Lastly if they delay neutral, the 2B>2D connect together making an UB wake-up option. Same as a regular emergency tech. If you wana bait a DP go ahead, if they dont DP they block the 2D. Go for a fuzzy.

Because of the timing on when you need to release Ada, trying to pull this off midscreen will require you to end a combo in CON position, most people are ending combos in NCO position. Also deviating away from the 8D ender. But its as I said, these japanese niggas are free... So that kinda justifies why they are being so stupid with Carls options/oki/enders.

[Psykotik]

So with the looming JP release of CP, I'd like to know how many of you guys plan to import CP.

Provided that nothing extraordinary happens, I'll probably import a copy and mess around in the lab. Some of you guys are a lot more creative w/training mode than I am so I'd imagine we could find more tech w/those guys importing as well. That said, I'm not trying to pressure anyone to import especially those short on cash or time to play to CP.

Those guys can have fun waiting six months though.