[CP] Carl Clover Gameplay Discussion (Changelog in OP)

[psycofang2]

after wtaching that carl vs tager fight. does carl get low to average reward for alot of things?

or does his advantage come from set ups? becasue wow, the carl player screws up once and nearly died for it.

[Psykotik]

Carl's damage off most hits is relatively low at midscreen without meter. In the corner, he can get better damage but it's nothing too big. Carl needs to go for resets and setups to get damage.

becasue wow, the carl player screws up once and nearly died for it.

That's the Carl v Tager matchup in a nutshell; it might start out in Carl's favor but if Tager gets in, he's done.

[JG]

after wtaching that carl vs tager fight. does carl get low to average reward for alot of things?

or does his advantage come from set ups? becasue wow, the carl player screws up once and nearly died for it.

Its kinda hard to tell nowadays, because the people that are playing with Carl right now doesn't seem to understand or get the idea off how Carl work or combos work in CP. If you pay attention, most of them still don't know the points of where you can deactivate/activate Nirvana between combos or feel comfortable doing this.

Carl indeed can get good dmg and Terezza mixup/pressure is very good. Most of the time with Terezza you could deal almost o 3K per reset, without counting the UB , that dmg isn't bad.

It seem that Carl main issue here... is that he is just way too much abare right now, thank to most of the damaging combos or BNB that don't use or try to not use Nirvana too much depend on the crush trigger move or a rapid cancel... i hate that! also you have to keep in mind that Nirvana gauge isn't so great either.

And the other thing, now if you want to perform solo combos with Carl after a cantabille, for the purpose of letting recharge Nirvana, you will waste 1 meter for that...

Carl never was a meter dependent character until CP... In conclusion, if you want to deal big dmg you will need a lot of meter, using a good dmg combo imply the use of crush trigger and ending that combo into fermata will end consuming at least 75% of heat gauge and is very probably that you will end with almost no or zero Nirvana gaugue after that.

[soujiro seta]

CP carl has several problems. His damage is actually on the low end. He has become way tooo meter dependent for dmg. In his case, this is a bad thing. Nirvana's meter in CP is somewhat bad, which isn't necessarily the problem, but then you add in his low dmg without meter and you can see how low dmg without meter + nirvana's meter doesn't work out too well. You have to use her to approach and as a meat shield, you have to use her to try and open up your opponent, then after you hit confirm you have to combo.

One thing I don't like about the direction they've taken carl is how nirvana's moves now just seem to be combo filler now.

-6D is an average (somewhat bad) poking/approach tool, tenerezza is much better because of it's range and pull effect.

-Brio is better at controlling the air than 8D, ever since 8D became air block-able. During the 8D unblockable era, 8D and brio had their place, now brio trumps 8D in almost all situations, and 8D is just combo ender for fermatta.

-Volante is average.

-2D still has its place.

-3D should go back to force standing opponents, and arc should remove his j.2C j.A gatling so 3D loop can't be done. Right now 3D is almost redundant and unneeded as tenerezza/fuoco/ are better to use on your opponents wakeup.

-4D has slowly made it's way to combo filler material.

-Anima is still useless

-Fuoco, like 2D, still has its place.

So now in CP you have a meter dependent carl for dmg (first ever), gear super dealing a measly 400 minimum dmg (practically making fermatta the only DD ender you ever want to use), nirvana's meter being not so great, and most of nirvana's moves don't have anything to them and are just combo filler or just simply there for the sake of saying "wow, she has so many moves".

These are the things i don't like about CP carl. They've nerfed him in every iteration since CS1, which i don't mind, but then they've made him and nirvana bland.

His overdrive, imo, is also lackluster. The whole taokaka almost becoming 2 effect doesn't do anything for nirvana, and giving him relius' DD is unoriginal. They practically just borrowed AB2 and relius' DD. Very boring. Carl's use his overdrive only for relius DD ender, that's all i've seen so far.

They also need to give carl something new, not nirvana, carl. I don't mind not making us be able to solo combo after cantabile anymore, but carl has lost many of his strengths since CS1 (many of which are warranted), but no new move has been added to his arsenal.

Edited January 6, 2013 by soujiro seta

[psycofang2]

i see, thats kinda shitty.

idk what could fix carl in all honesty, only thing that comes to mind is either give him much higher return or better nirvana meter and recharge rates.

OD stuff im not too worried about, pre OD i fear he looks too weak, like i was suspecting.

mind it WAS vs tager but thats where my point went home, carl had to work so hard to get to wher ehe was just to get killed, it felt like he had no real control in the fight.

watching carl perfrom was one of the more interesting things in BB, i hope it doesnt die out.

[JG]

CP carl has several problems. His damage is actually on the low end. He has become way tooo meter dependent for dmg. In his case, this is a bad thing. Nirvana's meter in CP is somewhat bad, which isn't necessarily the problem, but then you add in his low dmg without meter and you can see how low dmg without meter + nirvana's meter doesn't work out too well. You have to use her to approach and as a meat shield, you have to use her to try and open up your opponent, then after you hit confirm you have to combo.

One thing I don't like about the direction they've taken carl is how nirvana's moves now just seem to be combo filler now.

-6D is an average (somewhat bad) poking/approach tool, tenerezza is much better because of it's range and pull effect.

-Brio is better at controlling the air than 8D, ever since 8D became air block-able. During the 8D unblockable era, 8D and brio had their place, now brio trumps 8D in almost all situations, and 8D is just combo ender for fermatta.

-Volante is average.

-2D still has its place.

-3D should go back to force standing opponents, and arc should remove his j.2C j.A gatling so 3D loop can't be done. Right now 3D is almost redundant and unneeded as tenerezza/fuoco/ are better to use on your opponents wakeup.

-4D has slowly made it's way to combo filler material.

-Anima is still useless

-Fuoco, like 2D, still has its place.

So now in CP you have a meter dependent carl for dmg (first ever), gear super dealing a measly 400 minimum dmg (practically making fermatta the only DD ender you ever want to use), nirvana's meter being not so great, and most of nirvana's moves don't have anything to them and are just combo filler or just simply there for the sake of saying "wow, she has so many moves".

These are the things i don't like about CP carl. They've nerfed him in every iteration since CS1, which i don't mind, but then they've made him and nirvana bland.

His overdrive, imo, is also lackluster. The whole taokaka almost becoming 2 effect doesn't do anything for nirvana, and giving him relius' DD is unoriginal. They practically just borrowed AB2 and relius' DD. Very boring. Carl's use his overdrive only for relius DD ender, that's all i've seen so far.

They also need to give carl something new, not nirvana, carl. I don't mind not making us be able to solo combo after cantabile anymore, but carl has lost many of his strengths since CS1 (many of which are warranted), but no new move has been added to his arsenal.

I agree with almost anything here, except with the part of 3D and the thing you said about remove the j.2C, j.A gatling. Is true that Cs2 3D was very good, but the truth is that now you can get almost the same result mixing 6D, fuuoco and volante, especially now that fuuoco and 6D pick up the opponent from the floor.

But im not so sure if we can say with security that our dmg is on the low end... Still, im going to miss EXT Carl. That was the most complete Carl until now that i played.

[Rishtopher]

CP Carl Assessment

I didn't know about the gear's min damage nerf or about 8D being air blockable. All the other nerfs you list honestly make me wonder why I should play Carl in CP. I think I might switch to Relius at this point, he seems fun. I still like Carl but I'm kind of uninterested in the changes he's gotten. What I take from this is:

-Carl has to work harder to get in and stay in

-If you don't have meter and Ada's almost (if not) dead, you're SOL

-Only use for OD is for Relius super

I'll still sub Carl. For now though, he's kinda boring. Maybe things will change once we hit consoles and people actually have time to experiment.

Also, Carl's new voice is still the biggest nerf for me. It sounded cool for like a day and now I find his yelling annoying as hell.

[Psykotik]

8D's been air-(barrier-)blockable since CS2. The cantata nerf isn't a huge problem since 3C now combos into Fermata.

Carl's changes are pretty interesting overall. Although he did get a meterless damage nerf, he has a few new things to play with in the form of jump cancelable 5C and his buffed (dash) Allegretto, both of which are useful at neutral. I think Carl will be fine, it's only a matter of time before someone finds something that makes Carl broken again.

[sinder]

8D's been air-(barrier-)blockable since CS2. The cantata nerf isn't a huge problem since 3C now combos into Fermata.

Carl's changes are pretty interesting overall. Although he did get a meterless damage nerf, he has a few new things to play with in the form of jump cancelable 5C and his buffed (dash) Allegretto, both of which are useful at neutral. I think Carl will be fine, it's only a matter of time before someone finds something that makes Carl broken again.

the voice of reason

watch what's gonna happen after CP gets a console release

OMG best Carl since Extend!!!!!!

which is why all of this "sucky meterless damage" is just a phase

this happens in EVERY iteration he's in, and it gets more funny over time

I'm guilty with the 2D bullshit that happened in Extend, but look what happened ~~~~lawl~~

[Psykotik]

Ryuusei's been playing Jin in tourneys recently, I wonder if that's going to stick... well, there's other good Carls out there that we can watch. Hope we get vids of Kyaku at some point.

In other news, the video thread and combo thread has been updated. Any suggestions for the combo thread are appreciated.

[JG]

the voice of reason

watch what's gonna happen after CP gets a console release

OMG best Carl since Extend!!!!!!

which is why all of this "sucky meterless damage" is just a phase

this happens in EVERY iteration he's in, and it gets more funny over time

I'm guilty with the 2D bullshit that happened in Extend, but look what happened ~~~~lawl~~

Yeah... best Carl since ext, except for the fact that this is the first time that Carl is just SO DAMN ABARE. Its true, is very probably that Carl can get good thing in the future, but the cost of doing it will be too high.

The reason why EXT is one of the better, is because it was the one that let you choose his playstyle withouts worries. If you wanted to play focused only in reset, fine you can do it, if you want to play with UB loop, fine you can do it or even if you wanted to play only with solo combos.... you can do it XD. You have the combos, the gauge and the metter gain to do whatever you like.

Here on CP, is like being able to do many thing... but the cost is just too much and maybe the gain isnt worth it.

In my case, i liked some of the changes with this carl.... but i dont like depending on the crush trigger move..., also i dislike that now 6A don't juggle if the opponent isn't in the air.

Ryuusei's been playing Jin in tourneys recently, I wonder if that's going to stick... well, there's other good Carls out there that we can watch. Hope we get vids of Kyaku at some point.

In other news, the video thread and combo thread has been updated. Any suggestions for the combo thread are appreciated.

A friend of me also said the same thing, that Ryussei been playing with Jin.... If that is true, it make me very sad.... I hope that Kyaku still maintain Carl.

Edited January 8, 2013 by JG

[sinder]

6A don't juggle if the opponent isn't in the air.

NO!!!!!! I knew something was off with this move in this version, but it looked like a launch in one vid and the other they were grounded and I was like o.O?

Well... I'm just happy Carl has a banana color outfit

and yeah Ryyusei moved to Jin, I saw the vid and was Sad when (JIN) was next to his name

[Rishtopher]

and yeah Ryyusei moved to Jin, I saw the vid and was Sad when (JIN) was next to his name

Wait, are you sure he's serious? I thought he was just trolling...

[sinder]

Wait, are you sure he's serious? I thought he was just trolling...

he is probably going to make the switch in the long run and "sub" Carl, but now he is working with Jin the icy shoto

[Rishtopher]

he is probably going to make the switch in the long run and "sub" Carl, but now he is working with Jin the icy shoto

loool, like we needed any more Jins. Oh well, I guess I'll wait for Kyaku or something. Tooru seems ok for now, he's the only Carl I see playing CP. There was that Something-Something Megane guy too, I think.

[Psykotik]

^That would be Kichiku Megane. IMO the most solid Carl in the CP vids I've seen so far that's not Ryuusei is Nisshi. IIRC, he actually beat Ronitta in some 3v3 tournament.

Fun fact: Kichiku Megane is also the name of a BL game. The more you know!

Edited January 8, 2013 by Psykotik

[Rishtopher]

Fun fact: Kichiku Megane is also the name of a BL game.

Ohhhh, ok so that's why everyone thought his name was funny lol. I google'd it and the best I got was some guy in glasses, so I didn't get it.

More surprised that I didn't get hentai in my results, in retrospect...

[Psykotik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDDGhrAgfwk#t=17s Dat reach :O

This Carl player has some really interesting tricks. Dunno who he is but he's pretty fun to watch.

[Rin-Nakaret]

Pardon me guys, I really don't know a lot about Carl but I would like to understand something.

I read here and there "Carl is too heat dependant" ; "Carl doesn't do enough damage" ; but why is it problem ? I mean, Carl can build heat as easily as Mu can eat your guard primer in extend. Once he is in your face with Nirvana, if you don't have a reversal you are pretty much dead because of his mixes up, resets and corner pressing.

So, what's the problem ? He doesn't do Hakumen's damage but he has insanely good resets and okizieme. He may be heat dependent now, but it's not really a problem because he can press you forever which build meter a lot. Plus Carl isn't at his full potential yet, he obviously is a really deep character.

If the only problems you have about carl are those 2 points (heat and damage) well... I think it's to balance him. If Carl could do 4k without nirvana and meterless everytime he hits, it would be silly.

This is my point of view as a non Carl player but you know the character way better than me, maybe you could explain me why I'm wrong.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Pardon me guys, I really don't know a lot about Carl but I would like to understand something.

I read here and there "Carl is too heat dependant" ; "Carl doesn't do enough damage" ; but why is it problem ? I mean, Carl can build heat as easily as Mu can eat your guard primer in extend. Once he is in your face with Nirvana, if you don't have a reversal you are pretty much dead because of his mixes up, resets and corner pressing.

So, what's the problem ? He doesn't do Hakumen's damage but he has insanely good resets and okizieme. He may be heat dependent now, but it's not really a problem because he can press you forever which build meter a lot. Plus Carl isn't at his full potential yet, he obviously is a really deep character.

If the only problems you have about carl are those 2 points (heat and damage) well... I think it's to balance him. If Carl could do 4k without nirvana and meterless everytime he hits, it would be silly.

This is my point of view as a non Carl player but you know the character way better than me, maybe you could explain me why I'm wrong.

He doesn't have Haku-men's OD in CP, so he's bad now.

Honestly I've never heard these complaints about Carl before.

[Psykotik]

Pardon me guys, I really don't know a lot about Carl but I would like to understand something.

I read here and there "Carl is too heat dependant" ; "Carl doesn't do enough damage" ; but why is it problem ? I mean, Carl can build heat as easily as Mu can eat your guard primer in extend. Once he is in your face with Nirvana, if you don't have a reversal you are pretty much dead because of his mixes up, resets and corner pressing.

So, what's the problem ? He doesn't do Hakumen's damage but he has insanely good resets and okizieme. He may be heat dependent now, but it's not really a problem because he can press you forever which build meter a lot. Plus Carl isn't at his full potential yet, he obviously is a really deep character.

If the only problems you have about carl are those 2 points (heat and damage) well... I think it's to balance him. If Carl could do 4k without nirvana and meterless everytime he hits, it would be silly.

This is my point of view as a non Carl player but you know the character way better than me, maybe you could explain me why I'm wrong.

Carl's mixup potential and pressure are not to be taken lightly but the main problem is that Nirvana's meter is pretty limited and you'll have to spend a substantial amount to chase down a good opponent. If you do manage to pin them down, there will be many cases where you only have enough meter for a mixup and a combo and after that, you have to stop using Nirvana to let her heal and in doing so, you sacrifice your offensive momentum. Carl's damage nerf basically makes him work harder to get that damage.

With that being said, I'm actually not too bothered about it. I think Carl's damage is still reasonable in this version (and let's face it, meterless 4-5k midscreen was kinda dumb lol). With the changes as they are right now, it forces you to really think about resource management. Even then, if property played, Carl's nerfs won't hinder him too much.

[Michiru]

Uh if you don’t mind me asking, why is it that the people who were in the videos where using the “Crush trigger” if that’s the correct name. They used it in combos a lot; why not replace it with something else?? I’m sure it would get less damage, but i think it would have been somewhere in the same range of damage. It looked more like this Itoh person had more trouble optimizing his combos then actually hit-confirming. I kinda think it’s a bit too early to call a damage cap for Carl so soon. What do you all think?

[JG]

Pardon me guys, I really don't know a lot about Carl but I would like to understand something.

I read here and there "Carl is too heat dependant" ; "Carl doesn't do enough damage" ; but why is it problem ? I mean, Carl can build heat as easily as Mu can eat your guard primer in extend. Once he is in your face with Nirvana, if you don't have a reversal you are pretty much dead because of his mixes up, resets and corner pressing.

So, what's the problem ? He doesn't do Hakumen's damage but he has insanely good resets and okizieme. He may be heat dependent now, but it's not really a problem because he can press you forever which build meter a lot. Plus Carl isn't at his full potential yet, he obviously is a really deep character.

If the only problems you have about carl are those 2 points (heat and damage) well... I think it's to balance him. If Carl could do 4k without nirvana and meterless everytime he hits, it would be silly.

This is my point of view as a non Carl player but you know the character way better than me, maybe you could explain me why I'm wrong.

No one is saying that Carl should do 4K without nirvana, also he never was able to do that before, but you have to understand this: Carl have always been able too build heat without problem even in CP. The problem is this, for the first time we depend on a move that consume heat for doing almost all ours combos and also the damaging ones, that move is the crush trigger.

Before CP, you could do a long combo and earn almost enough heat for the purpose that the next combo, the one that you do after a reset or oki, could end it into a distortion because you will have at least 50% heat. Now, is way more hard doing that, because performing the same require consuming at leas 25% heat, even if Carl build heat very quickly his issue is almost all of his combos need the crush trigger, so if you do two combos in a row that need CT you will not be able to finish your last combo into a distortion.

You said that Carl don't have hakumen dmg? well on EXT he was able to do that. On mid screen and in corner he could easily do 5K~6K dmg thank to 6C full charged, 6]D[,4]D[ etc.

I'm pretty sure that his dmg will be also be high on CP, after watching itou and seeing the evolution that Carl is having after the past two month. Is not hard imagine him doing more dmg than Hakumen without overdrive.

The problem now, if that doing similar stuff like in EXT, CS2 or even CS1 have ended consuming more heat and more Nirvana gaugue U_U. Kinda like Johny, he was very good on Slash... but in Ac he was bad because doing the same thing require consuming tension.

Carl's mixup potential and pressure are not to be taken lightly but the main problem is that Nirvana's meter is pretty limited and you'll have to spend a substantial amount to chase down a good opponent. If you do manage to pin them down, there will be many cases where you only have enough meter for a mixup and a combo and after that, you have to stop using Nirvana to let her heal and in doing so, you sacrifice your offensive momentum. Carl's damage nerf basically makes him work harder to get that damage.

This! i could t said this more perfectly than you. This is the problem with Carl now.

Uh if you don’t mind me asking, why is it that the people who were in the videos where using the “Crush trigger” if that’s the correct name. They used it in combos a lot; why not replace it with something else?? I’m sure it would get less damage, but i think it would have been somewhere in the same range of damage. It looked more like this Itoh person had more trouble optimizing his combos then actually hit-confirming. I kinda think it’s a bit too early to call a damage cap for Carl so soon. What do you all think?

Because ''Crush trigger'' pick up the opponent and doesn't have too much proration or spm. You could replace it with 5C, but doing that could mean that your combo cant be too long.

I agree that Carl could end it doing more dmg, like 1k or 1.5k more. What it concern me is: if you manage to do this.... how much Nirvana gauge will be left? will be enought to let Nirvana alive? or in most case, doing a dmg combo after a reset will end killing Nirvana....

Edited January 19, 2013 by JG

[Michiru]

Because ''Crush trigger'' pick up the opponent and doesn't have too much proration or spm. You could replace it with 5C, but doing that could mean that your combo cant be too long.

I agree that Carl could end it doing more dmg, like 1k or 1.5k more. What it concern me is: if you manage to do this.... how much Nirvana gauge will be left? will be enought to let Nirvana alive? or in most case, doing a dmg combo after a reset will end killing Nirvana....

So it is because of the meter consumption that you are worried about doing combos? Well if all we did was replace the CT with a 5c>Random Ada attack I do not see how one extra attack would be that great a cost for her?

In I think it was this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G_DGQzbn4M#t=1h25m50s that Carl did a hitconfirm with 4D because, that is far from a optimal combo. However it still did about 4k. One can easily see that Carls max in the next game might be around 4.5k~5k with the proper combo from a 4D starter. It is with this that I took a glance at the new frame data on the home page and 4D (Both hits) have a P1 of 90. But then again according to the ‘Proration chart’ almost all of Adas attacks have a P1 of 90 which means 4D is not our only starter that can net us close to 4k or maybe even pass the 4k mark. With that hitconfirm from the 4D we got 3.7k. With a proper combo (As I stated previously) we logically should be able to get a good 4.5k from a more optimal combo.

With that we are looking at a good 4k from almost all of our combos, that start with a Ada attack. This means that getting hit by Ada will almost always guarantee a good 4k.. Because of this in turn means that our average damage is about 4k, since Carl as a character is extremely good at landing Ada P1’s thanks to our mixup.

Its just I do not believe we “Need” the ‘CT’ in CP to get the damage that you call see currently. I believe the japans are using it more often than not is because they don’t know how to get the damage they need without the use of CT. So instead of trying to drop combs testing things they would prefer to take the easy way/win and just use a little heat to get the good damage we saw a lot in the vid. This is by far a very logical and correct choice by the Japanese, so we cant blame them but at the same time I believe that they know Carl is capable of more. This issue is that they don’t know how,, remember every time they want to play they got to pay. So if they lose because they want to try and test something then they go straight to the back of the line and got to wait all over again. Better safe than sorry, and the Japs are obviously trying to play it safe.

Sorry about the whole rant here, but what do you all think?

Edited January 20, 2013 by Michiru

[sinder]

^you are 100% correct

honestly, you've nailed down all the things I would have elaborated on. The optimal combo issue was discussed not too long ago here

Unfortunately, the only thing we can do now is speculate (whiich is one of the most annoying things to do) until we get our hands on a copy of CP. I was even thinking of importing it but i hope it isn't region locked because that would suck.