[CP] Carl Clover Gameplay Discussion (Changelog in OP)

[Psykotik]

Lastly when I was referring to a OS bait, I should have put OS/Bait. This setup with fucco stops several options which are: Tech Rolls, delay neutral tech, Neutral tech into buttons, wake-up Dp, wake up block, and quick get up into anything. There are only two options that are full proof against this which are: wake up counter assault (50 heat) and wake up Dp rapid cancel (50 heat). The reason why I called it a OS bait is because you can bait both of the only 2 options they have and still have pressure if they do not do them. Fuacco/6C whiff > 2a is a very powerful tool.

That's not really an OS though. An OS is a series of ambigious inputs that can result in different actions and will produce different outputs depending on the context in which it's used. A basic example is the throw-barrier OS (4A+B+C) where if the opponent uses an attack, you'll barrier block but if they throw you, you'll tech the throw. In this case, Carl always does the same thing if you do this input. A setup that beats multiple options is different from an actual option select.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Psykotik

[Michiru]

That's not really an OS though. An OS is a series of ambigious inputs that can result in different actions and will produce different outputs depending on the context in which it's used. A basic example is the throw-barrier OS (4A+B+C) where if the opponent uses an attack, you'll barrier block but if they throw you, you'll tech the throw. In this case, Carl always does the same thing if you do this input. A setup that beats multiple options is different from an actual option select.

I could have sworn the reason behind things being called OS's was do the one option/setup/tool being able to stop multiple things, all while being completely safe. I do not recall you needing to press a specific button(s) in order for it to meet the requirements of being a option select.

[Psykotik]

The key component to an option select is that the inputs are ambiguous enough to the point where the game engine can interpret the command in multiple ways and depending on the situation, the game will automatically "select" the best "option" for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aJHGgo-1gc (Yes, it's an AE video but the concept is still the same across all FGs)

Note that even though Ken is doing different things to beat Akuma's options, he's actually doing the same pre-recorded input every time. It's the timing and buffering of multiple commands in his option select that enables the same command to do so many different things.

With that said, a setup that beats multiple options is often functionally similar to an OS so I can understand why the line between the two can be blurry.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Psykotik

[Michiru]

Ahh I see... So why is it that on stream people call set-ups option selects. I believe the term OS has been adapted to the actual action and less on the actual inputs. Kind of like slang I suppose. The origin of the word does mean something, yet because the actions are the same people have began to use the term for something different. Similar but still different.

I suppose that clears up my misunderstanding

Edited January 31, 2013 by Michiru

[Akiro]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVnU_FtqVKk&feature=player_detailpage#t=56s

Holy shit the range on Tenerezza is fucking borked.

[Rishtopher]

Looked fine to me?

[Michiru]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVnU_FtqVKk&feature=player_detailpage#t=56s

Holy shit the range on Tenerezza is fucking borked.

Did anyone else notice the Hitstun it had on Ragna while he was standing???

Looks amazing, IMO best neutral tool we have Hitstun + Speed + Reach= Godlike.

[Afro-Demon]

Why does no one listen to me. It's like I'm talking to a wall or something. I've said multiple times it has equal to if not more stun than 6D. And yes, Tenerrezza is awesome.

[Rishtopher]

We listen to you Afro, these posters are just new lol. Honestly, I don't feel like there's even anything to talk about anymore unless we find some cool new setups or resets.

[sinder]

Why does no one listen to me. It's like I'm talking to a wall or something. I've said multiple times it has equal to if not more stun than 6D. And yes, Tenerrezza is awesome.

it has nothing to do with new posters, but...

show of hands, who really reads the threads on dustloop???

Plus this game isnt even out here yet so im not even that interested.

and im listening to you cause I care

[TD]

it has nothing to do with new posters, but...

show of hands, who really reads the threads on dustloop???

Plus this game isnt even out here yet so im not even that interested.

and im listening to you cause I care

Wait what. If you're not reading the threads, why are you on a forum

Needless to say, no one is probably reading this specific subforum.

Anyway tenerezza does look pretty good, just don't whiff it

[Michiru]

Wait what. If you're not reading the threads, why are you on a forum

Needless to say, no one is probably reading this specific subforum.

Anyway tenerezza does look pretty good, just don't whiff it

Ada has less recovery from a whiffed Tenerezzan than her 6D (Eyeballing it btw)... An we whiff those all the time <_< Not only that, you would need to be extremely far or high in the air (Tao) to make this move miss. At that point I dont even think anyone could punish it.. Excluding moves like: Valk beast cannon, Hells Fang, Ice car etc.

[Psykotik]

Considering the horrible recovery on HF and how Carl can get in on Ragna during that time, it's a questionable punisher at best.

[Michiru]

Hells fang has a amazing hitbox.. You would need to double jump and or super jump to avoid it. The only possible way to punish HF if Ragna hits Ada would be to get on the opposite side. Carl lacks the hitbox's and normals to just simply 'hit' Ragna. Even in the event you were to block HF if you are behind Ada (Which Carl is, in this specific example) you would be pushed back not only by HF but by Ada being hit as well. Her hitbox is active while being hit, and we cannot walk through her. If Hells Fang actually hits Ada the follow up attack would hit Carl if he tried to do anything to rash. Im not saying it is not possible. However, it is dangerous.

If HF hits Ada, Carl is either to far to get hit which means you are kinda far because of the extremely large hitbox on HF especially since active frames are extended when something hits Ada you would need to super jump Air dash. Which by the time you land Ragna is already finsihed with his recover (Which is not a lot). So yes I would consider this a very decent Ada punish. If Carl is a bit closer to Ada then Ragna only needs to do the follow up which since it hit Ada also has its active frames extended at no extra cost to Ragna making it even harder to avoid since the Hitbox to this move goes at a upwards angle.

[Rishtopher]

show of hands, who really reads the threads on dustloop???

What? Why would you post here, not knowing what other people are saying? That's WHY information gets repeated :\

Wait what. If you're not reading the threads, why are you on a forum

Needless to say, no one is probably reading this specific subforum.

Pretty much this. No one reads what we've already talked about. It comes up over and over.

[Psykotik]

Hells fang has a amazing hitbox.. You would need to double jump and or super jump to avoid it. The only possible way to punish HF if Ragna hits Ada would be to get on the opposite side. Carl lacks the hitbox's and normals to just simply 'hit' Ragna. Even in the event you were to block HF if you are behind Ada (Which Carl is, in this specific example) you would be pushed back not only by HF but by Ada being hit as well. Her hitbox is active while being hit, and we cannot walk through her. If Hells Fang actually hits Ada the follow up attack would hit Carl if he tried to do anything to rash. Im not saying it is not possible. However, it is dangerous.

If HF hits Ada, Carl is either to far to get hit which means you are kinda far because of the extremely large hitbox on HF especially since active frames are extended when something hits Ada you would need to super jump Air dash. Which by the time you land Ragna is already finsihed with his recover (Which is not a lot). So yes I would consider this a very decent Ada punish. If Carl is a bit closer to Ada then Ragna only needs to do the follow up which since it hit Ada also has its active frames extended at no extra cost to Ragna making it even harder to avoid since the Hitbox to this move goes at a upwards angle.

It doesn't take good normals to punish hell's fang. Dash cancelled jump/air dash/a combination of the two blows it up for free as long as you're close enough (in which case, you probably are). Given that you're not an absurd distance away from Ragna, punishing HF is not very hard at all.

[Michiru]

Its not hard to punish provided Ada is not being hit.

[Psykotik]

But that's what we're talking about here: If Ragna hits Ada with hell's fang w/o meter, he can be easily be punished for it. Exactly how are you having trouble punishing it? It's certainly not impossible to do if I can punish it consistently.

[Michiru]

Its also apart of the timing and spacing. Timing and spacing are everything. If the Ragna uses HF and goes directly into the second hit then of course you can punish them. However if they look to see: how far carl is, what is carl doing, did carl get hit by the attack, did Carl block the attack or does it look like carl is about to approach and punish. Depending on what Carl is doing Ragna can act accordingly and either time the second attack or just not do the second attack at all. In order to punish the 1st attack you need to go in almost immediately but even then, if ragna sees you coming in he can just do the follow up attack. Due to the angle of the follow up attack Carl trying to approach from the sky will get him hit and approaching from the ground is not an option. So the only way to punish the 1st attack is to go in almost immediately. On the other hand if you do nothing Ragna can just not do the second attack if you are not coming in.

As you can see the only possible way to go about punishing is if you are directly in Ragna's face. An if you are that close, then HF no longer even needs to be used when he can simply 5b your face.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Michiru

[Psykotik]

The hitbox of both parts of HF aren't that good, Carl can easily go over either part of the attack and get in. Considering how slowly HF recovers, you don't even need to get in immediately as you have a tiny bit of leeway when you're punishing this. Best case scenario: Ragna eats a combo. Worse case scenario (if you're not fast enough with this for some reason): Ragna recovers in time but now he has to block Carl and the playing field is no longer neutral.

[Michiru]

Psykotik... Distance. If Carl is close enough to punish as easily as you say. Then the Ragna is to close to Carl and should have did 5D instead.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Michiru

[Psykotik]

I think you're misunderstanding something: Carl doesn't have to be that close to punish HF. If Carl's within midscreen (or even 3/4 screen) distance, he can easily punish HF. And 5D, while better than HF for hitting Ada, isn't really that great for hitting Ada either.

[Michiru]

.... Ok.

[Rishtopher]

How come I've never heard of this guy before? http://youtu.be/POPFmizrHA4

From the comments: "Mucchi (Muta) is the Carl player. And Tocchi is the Relius player. This is in Fukuoka. Mucchi is generally considered to be the best Carl in Fukuoka and in previous versions of the game he was considered by most (and still is) to be the best Blazblue player in Fukuoka." Earlier comment says it's Aina Ashwin, which I can see in the katakana but the other guy says he knows this guy personally, so... yeah.

Pretty much full X-Matic II with no commentary in this vid if you want to hear it.

[Psykotik]

I had a feeling that Aina Ashwin wasn't his real name lol.

Considering how there isn't as much footage of Mucchi as there is of other Carl players, you'd be forgiven for not knowing him. Hell, I didn't know about him until the CS2 era and I nearly forgot about him until you brought him up. He is a very good Carl though, I remember that his team made it pretty far in BlueRevo (he entered under Akechi Kokoro in that tournament). IIRC, he was also the one who discovered Carl's ridiculous high damage combos in CS1 and made a few combo videos, most of which are not up anymore unfortunately. #ripjourdal

Also, lol 5B anti-air

Edited February 25, 2013 by Psykotik