Xrd and growing the GG community

[tataki]

Complexity is too broad of a term. All the games mentioned differentiate in the skills they measure. Even the decision making skills are different when you have to do them in a split second, or over several seconds, or during a whole minute.

[reaVer]

This argument in general is pretty silly, because "decent" can mean vastly different things to different people. I think most people consider themselves only decent, because they're always looking up. As reaver mentioned, his definition of decent is about where he's at, while a casual player might think another way, and a player in Japan would have an even stricter definition. It's meaningless to argue about who's decent and who isn't.

IMO fighting games have a lot more complexity than games like DotA, Starcraft, and Counterstrike. The skill ceiling is basically unattainable due to the number of decisions you need to make in a match. The reason why it seems like eSports games are more difficult is because there are a lot more people playing competitively, for a lot more money, so it takes a longer time to become competitive compared to fighting games. However, I think if the same amount of money and players existed in both scenes, it would become clear that fighting games have a higher potential for skill.

Disclaimer: I come from a semi-professional DotA/FPS background, and I'm comparitively terrible at fighting games, so it's possible that I overrate their difficulty at the top level.

This basically. What I was trying to do Gramas, is incite you to enter a european major in hopes of being able to show you 'decent'. Because I can take your pattern in a similar way:

If you consider being decent in a fighting game by mastering what your character can do, it would be the same as me being able to grab say... crystal maiden and use all my spells and combo those spells appropiately. Or in CS, being able to run aim and shoot; oh and jump, but that's a little overrated when they took out bunny hopping. For me these are the utter basics. When I see someone playing GG pull up the movelist before he starts, I know he's not going to last and it's the same in the other games.

One of the major things that I notice about more mainstream games is that access to the high level players is almost impossible. If I wanted to play with members of the Na'Vi team in dota, I'd first need to manage to get to 'very high' skill level and then there's a random chance I might get into one game with them. And even if I would shine in that game, they wouldn't care and I still wouldn't be capable of playing with them or learning from them. When you look at GG, essentially your wallet is your limit. If I go to USA I don't have people going "I won't play you because you're too low skill", nor do I have this kind of bs in europe; heck to top it off, I even got games with N.O, as did everyone that wanted to play against him! This matters a LOT; we as a community have access to our stronger players in one way or another. We can learn from them and improve much faster than the mainstream scenes because of this(catching up is easier than expanding). This to me is the main observed difference between our scenes. And that might cause you to think that mastering those games is much harder, but in reality, your progress is just much slower thanks to all the bullshit in there.

[Celerity]

Yes, the DotA community in particular is very insular and clique-ish, and it really drives people away (hell, it drove me away from the NA scene to the point where I only played with Europeans/Singaporeans). The FGC doesn't have nearly as much of that in my limited experience, which is good, but we can always take it as a lesson to be as inclusive as possible.

[Gramas]

This basically. What I was trying to do Gramas, is incite you to enter a european major in hopes of being able to show you 'decent'. Because I can take your pattern in a similar way:

If you consider being decent in a fighting game by mastering what your character can do, it would be the same as me being able to grab say... crystal maiden and use all my spells and combo those spells appropiately. Or in CS, being able to run aim and shoot; oh and jump, but that's a little overrated when they took out bunny hopping. For me these are the utter basics. When I see someone playing GG pull up the movelist before he starts, I know he's not going to last and it's the same in the other games.

One of the major things that I notice about more mainstream games is that access to the high level players is almost impossible. If I wanted to play with members of the Na'Vi team in dota, I'd first need to manage to get to 'very high' skill level and then there's a random chance I might get into one game with them. And even if I would shine in that game, they wouldn't care and I still wouldn't be capable of playing with them or learning from them. When you look at GG, essentially your wallet is your limit. If I go to USA I don't have people going "I won't play you because you're too low skill", nor do I have this kind of bs in europe; heck to top it off, I even got games with N.O, as did everyone that wanted to play against him! This matters a LOT; we as a community have access to our stronger players in one way or another. We can learn from them and improve much faster than the mainstream scenes because of this(catching up is easier than expanding). This to me is the main observed difference between our scenes. And that might cause you to think that mastering those games is much harder, but in reality, your progress is just much slower thanks to all the bullshit in there.

A european major for arksys game?wat?

and of course mastering what your character can do(mixup pressure pokes okizeme..Im not talking about move list lol) is the basic and THEN you start play the game for real..(as I said before)

CS I can agree with, the game doesn't have much fat to cut through, it's mostly about learning the maps, positioning, where to look and when, when to advance and when to stay put, and from there it's just playing a lot and getting better at aim.

Thats like saying that in fighting games all you need is being able to do the combos...

I don't even know how to explain the CS-FG differences

In cs the grasp is easy, the rules are easy..the metagame seems to be easy but there is a deepest sort of metagame that the players created during the years that its realy hard to understand and learn..especialy if you dont watch tons of demos trying to understand what realy happens or you dont have someone that teaches you

I played intensively both CS and FGs and this is no match to me

And this is something I have to explain the other way when some cs player look at fighting games and says to me "whats special about that game?it feels always the same to me...so boring"

Edited May 30, 2013 by Gramas

[reaVer]

Shameless spam:

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?16217-Moscow-Fighting-Arena-2013

This year it's held in Russia. Usually there's Showdown, which is held once a year(except this year).

[The Katz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9A8VJBh_Yc

/cough/

[Vashimus]

So yeah, just chilling on the forums for the first time and stumbled upon this beauty.

So it's not about which games are objectively most well suited for what's supposed to be the premier national championship (the obvious ideal), or even about which one is most popular (a flawed concept), but about which fanbase has the most expendable money (DANGER: RETARDATION APPROACHING CRITICAL MASS)?

As if any proof was ever needed that the Smash community is primarily subhuman filth. Copping out on cancer research fundraising money on the chance because your game doesn't get picked to be ran at a tournament it has no place at? Stay classy, scum.

I'm not going to EVO but I'm still going to donate in the name of GG. Gotta keep the non-casualized flag flying, since EVO themselves have little interest in doing so, and judging by preliminary poll results where Smash/MLP crush everything else, most "fighting gamers" these days aren't interested either.

This should extend beyond just other common fighters. You've gotta be kidding me. No really, you must be since none of that is true. All over a video game that didn't get into EVO. The Smash community may do some stupid stuff (a very vocal minority), but I've never heard them talk ill of other fighters or the players. Because it's pathetic. But whatever, stay mad.

This is the main reason the Smash community felt mixed when they actually did win the Breast Cancer Drive (most overfunded research on the planet for the record, doubt it accomplished anything). We'll be on our best behavior to make a good impression this EVO, but if we're going to be treated like crap then what's the point?

Edited June 6, 2013 by Vashimus

[Ash of Arcadia]

Why do people feel the need to support tournaments that don't support them? I have never went to or supported Evo for their ignorance towards the games I like.

GG has enough American players that they could easily do a GG only/main event tourney. They could do it like Yipes does Curley and have it move from state to state so nobody can say "it's too far" for long. It may seem like a daunting task at first but if people truly want to play, this would be the perfect example of the community helping out the community and just doing what's needed to maintain a GG presence in North America.

[Vashimus]

Because at the end of the day, we all love video games, fighting games in particular, and should support it? Especially if your game is getting featured there despite the tournament "not approving"? Idk, maybe I only think like that.

[Ash of Arcadia]

But I like my money a bit more and I would rather it go to a cause that directly affects me.

[Vashimus]

Hey, for some people the drive was just that.

[Ash of Arcadia]

So you think it's ok to funnel people's money into something that they don't directly support? Breast cancer, as one poster put it, is the most over funded disease ever, so that's going to get money no matter what we do. Frankly, I think that breast cancer drives ought to be forced to partner with testicular/prostate cancer and give them some of that money because women aren't the only people who get cancer but that's another story.

At the end of the day, the people who truly wanted to see/support Skullgirls were placed in a gambling situation with shitty odds. Then when they(inevitably) lose, people have something to soothe them with in the form of "It was for a good cause".

The church uses that same mentality with tithing and asking for donations.

[Vashimus]

Of course not. I didn't donate. That doesn't mean I don't support EVO and avoid it like the plague simply because it lacks Guilty Gear or Melee.

Missing the point of my original post anyway.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Vashimus

[Ash of Arcadia]

Then you have no reason to argue my point. It's not fun to see all of your efforts gone up in smoke and to have your resources taken and used for something that you never intended for them to be used for.

I directly supported the new DLC for Skullgirls because I knew that my money would directly affect my interest. The characters being added in at the time didn't really matter because I know that all of the same ones that got disqualified at this juncture will just go right back in the running and most likely will end up being in at some point.

This situation is very different in the sense that it was a lose/lose situation from the very beginning for the Skullgirls side.

The moral of this whole this is: don't expect to win in competitions where it was designed for you to lose from the very beginning. If we truly want GG to thrive in this hemisphere, we need to take action as a community and not wait for others to give a fuck about us.

[Vashimus]

So, host a second EVO for the remaining fighters?

[Ash of Arcadia]

Why are you latching Evo onto anything? I gave you a perfect example in what Yipes is doing. He only caters to his preferred game but he moves around a lot to make sure that players from all over the nation have a decent shot at making it out to play. Curley Mustache.

[Vashimus]

I'm not, I'm just -- ah forget it.

[Spirit Juice]

Keep the thread on topic please, or I will start deleting posts and handing out infractions. The talk about Evo and breast cancer research is both ignorant, off topic, and stupid.

Just so you guys know, there isn't some anti-anime conspiracy run by the FGC/SRK/Evo Illuminati, so drop it. There will be no more discussion about it.

[wiredgod]

I haven't had this experience where the GG players are seen as "black sheep". Most of them are respected players. If you want to get people into GG, why wait for Xrd? AC is out now and +R will be released on console soon. Xrd won't be here until god knows when. Xrd will probably get some new players into the series and some people that liked the XX series won't like it, which is fine so long as they don't incessantly whine about it.

Basic point, grow the community now, not later

[InWithTheAshes]

It's less a preference towards using a new game to gain players and more the fact that new games tend to draw new players in anyway, simply via virtue of being new. As well as marketing and the gaming community's constant tendency to ask for new things, a large problem I see now is that newer players aren't particularly motivated to put much time towards it due to the fact that they think themselves just too late to get towards a level comparable to the ones playing since release.

Edited June 6, 2013 by InWithTheAshes

[Ash of Arcadia]

It's hard to get newer people into older games. As new and improved as +R is to us, they won't see it that way. We already have a template and are already very familiar with the game system. They are just coming into this world and have to deal with people who have been in this environment for 10 years at least. It's difficult to get them to understand that with practice and immersion, they too can become that damn good.

Then it's another thing once they bite...they'll have next to nobody to play with them unless they play online which may or may not be optimal.

It's a two-pronged problem that needs to be addressed ASAP.

[Mr. X]

Many think new game = everyone is starting from square 1 and that more stuff works or they can get away with.

[Zieg]

Not gonna lie: I got tricked into playing Guilty Gear when I thought I was going to a Gran Turismo meet. :V

[Ash of Arcadia]

Many think new game = everyone is starting from square 1 and that more stuff works or they can get away with.

With Xrd, they may be able to get away with some new stuff since the engine is brand new to GG, but +R is a love song to the core GG player base right now. They aren't going to want to have to deal with relentless Aba's and Eddie's. Sure, Kliff is easy enough for them to pick up but beyond his ease of play, there's also the small nuances that you just wouldn't pick up unless you've played this game for a long time.

[Klaige]

Even though it was forgotten pages ago, I'll restate that the point of this isn't about why people might be afraid or deterred from guilty gear. It's about how to bring them in, and the mindset that will aid that path. I haven't posted much since my initial words, but i've been keeping an eye on all the GG threads, and a lot of my worries are being confirmed by the general attitude and discussions amongst a lot of people. I still think a lot of good things can happen for the GG player base as a whole, and I'll be doing my own part to help with that. But it's an uphill battle against a lot of the mouths that love to hear themselves flap online and off.