Xrd and growing the GG community

[Sophisticat]

I honestly think the only thing you need to grow a community is consistency.

Like, keep going to your meets, keep promoting the scene, and stay involved. Keep a positive attitude. If the game is good, you'll see people come in and try it out because they're interested in more than casuals.

A consistent community is, imo, really the most important aspect to growing beyond your little group of friends. There really isn't any magic formula other than that, but it takes dedication, passion, and patience. If you can't keep it up, you'll notice that a lack of consistency and momentum is a deadly community killer and the scene will die a premature death.

So get your shit together, find a place to play, and get playing and promoting! That's all you need...

[HellSap]

To grow a community you need consistency and a game that will actually draw people in.

I am completely behind the mentality shift and this second chance. As someone who has been promoting the local community for some time, I have heard from several local players that the toxicity had killed their interest in playing airdashers/GG. Now we're all more mature, a new *exciting* revision of our beloved game might be enough to get us a good and proper scene! Even if you cant get the same draw as SF4 or Marvel; get involved, learn those games and communicate with the scene. Get some game exchange going on with players and promote your shit.

Even if none of it works, you can still putter on with 3-4 dedicated players, like my scene always has... haha

[huber]

Shitting on players and other games is disgustingly toxic to scenes. I started off on a website I enjoyed that regularly shat on SF that turned me away from the SF scene, but now that behavior has left me resenting the original website for being ignorant assholes.

So true. Every community is guilty of it. It hurts every scene. People would be more willing to dabble in many games if each scene didn't feel the need to constantly rag on other games.

Another thing to point out:

I've been learning Tekken for the past year. That game is hard. Luckily for me I started a little before Tag 2 dropped. This let me avoid all the commotion that happened as soon as it landed on consoles. When it landed on consoles and everyone asked "should I try Tekken?" many seasoned players said it was too hard. This caused many people to never even try the game that had interest in it. I think this hurt the game so damn much. No game is TOO hard. Let people decide if it's too hard after they actually attempt to learn it. Don't stop them before they even try.

Guilty Gear is also hard. So please, when people ask if they should try Guilty Gear just answer with a resounding "YES". Tell them it's fun and challenging. Just don't scare people away with language like "it's too hard".

Edited May 24, 2013 by huber

[Tong]

snip

I agree with all points!

One thing that definitely kills the hype is not playing the game with newcomers frequently, or finding suitable opponents for them.

I say that because, while I had positive feedback from the local community in P4U, most just vanished because didn't I bother with playing them. :/

Lessons learned haha

[The Katz]

Oh my god why did I even type this

If you want to play a liquor shot game, drink every time you read the word "learning."

Guilty Gear is also hard. So please, when people ask if they should try Guilty Gear just answer with a resounding "YES". Tell them it's fun and challenging. Just don't scare people away with language like "it's too hard".

inb4footinmouth...

Also not about to say GG isn't hard. This response is more on ^this topic^ and not the person posting.

Saying a game is too hard

(at least with our current examples; we can bring up Dio link bnb's somewhere else, but even then...)

is like automatically assuming that any new player lacks the ability to learn and develop. We learn better if we take something on in parts/steps, and entry-level math isn't (or shouldn't be) Trig'. While flashy combos or complex-looking mix-up can help draw players in I don't know anybody who actually went to learn such things before attempting to understand the basics of their character let alone the game. This gets as basic as "What are all of my moves? What do they do? How far do they go? How fast are they?" We always start with some sort of goal in mind even at the most casual level. It could just be something like "This is something new that looked interesting enough. Let's mess around with stuff and try to enjoy it."

In most cases we either hit some sort of wall or hurdle we can't quite get over yet to do that awesome-flashy-kuucombo (forgive me), or distractions appear that might end up changing the goal we set initially. Some people find the gameplay and strategy interesting. From what I've heard from a few people in that group they worked their ways up from understanding the fundamentals of actually fighting against another player (spacing, what advantage means, etc). In other words: What their buttons do, why to do them, and when. Mincing words aside we all start somewhere. This isn't any less true when it comes to playing a new fighter, either. We learn, adapt, and ultimately improve because we have the ability to.

I originally started on Guilty Gear 'casually' because of the promising of awesome rock and deliciously-absurd violence. My real start in playing FG's more actively was when BBCT hit the shelves. I've played the game actively since maybe a week after release 'til about four oR five (heh) months ago, and seriously picked Guilty Gear back up again maybe two years ago. GG was still a new game for me, even with the ridiculous amount of practice and matches I've spent on Blazblue. A few general things carried over, but I had to work from the ground up. It's somewhat apparent that I'm a combo vid hoarder/addict (putting it lightly), and considering how long it took me to develop the collection over the years I've had plenty of time to research. In my case I just saw an abundance of awesome things all the time, and after seeing it enough times some of the knowledge stuck.

Regardless of how good or bad I was a new game was still a new game. It was different. Even with EXP under my belt on another game and pretty decent knowledge going in I still had to go through the basics. There was a learning curve, but it wasn't as rough as people made it sound. I made it through on -two- separate FG's mostly on my own in both instances. Countless others have done it as well, and countless others have spent that time learning with friends who enjoy the same hobby. Hell, I'm not really 'through' fighting games, I'm not the greatest, and I still learn when I play. I don't know anyone who's ever 'done' learning.

Though, for GG I had the support of parts ( 3 people from #R) of the GG FGC. So there was a tiny bit of hand-holding, even if they were barely touching.

<3 to NoJ, Blitz, and BagandScalpel

In some attempt to sum up all of this mess I typed up...

Telling them something is difficult is pointless in normal cases. It's like telling a child that the needle will hurt instead of just "hold still please," or "you'll feel a tiny prick/scratch." Saying it hurts isn't entirely true, and it can end up scaring them. Leaving it vague or making the difficulty seem insignificant is better than telling the worst that could happen. It's going to be their experience, and we can't (or shouldn't) tell them how it's going to be. Everyone has different goals, interests in different things, and different reactions. However, we all learn and have experiences. There's no point in ruining it for others if yours sucked, or you think they're too 'weak' (for lack of a better word)

It is important to have some form of guidance while we're learning something new, but it isn't completely necessary. We shouldn't keep a mentality where new players are completely daft. I...I know some of them can be at times, but like I've noted before we all start somewhere. Some of us just play for fun and want to do something cooler, and ask around about how to do it. Just another distraction, goal, and learning process we end up going through.

Edited May 24, 2013 by The Katz

[reaVer]

Like I said earlier, and it's quite simple. We should be honest with the players trying to play the game. GG isn't a game you just learn, it can take years before you get yourself on a respectable level. It's a game where you can spend hours in training mode, hours in arcade mode, days in casuals and still see little progress as far as results go. It's one of the amazing things that this game has yet can make it impossible for some players to play it. So it's always fair to tell people that when they are getting into this game, they are gettiing themselves into a real challenge that can take them years to overcome. And to me it's why this game is worth my time everytime I play it, because you can learn, improve, etc. You can always come up with new stuff and make it work for you and it gives you enough room to develop your own style. Even BB doesn't go this far in my opinion. But if a player is interested in just winning or pushing buttons, this game might just not be for them. They will play against you and they will lose and they have to face up to the fact that this is how anyone starts That is just honesty.

Next up, people should stop dictating to others how this game should be played and seriously need to stop that they are part of some truth ranking where their opinion is automatically more valid than anyone else. Yes, I'm referring to how I got banned and what happened when I got back. It's almost laughable to see that you're getting kicked to reinstate the previously disrupted ranking and that when you finally do get back you see that they have been doing fuck all except for parroting eachother's words: nothing new learned, no progress on what people can do to deal with certain situations. Even up to this day, I'm sure that most people on this forum don't even know why dragon punches are effective tools. It's quite frankly just appaling and disrespectful to people who actually are learning their stuff and are developing some proper game sense. And don't get me wrong, I've been the same for quite some time, but I changed; which is very notable with my playing style.

And if anything, stop deleting posts/handing out infractions because you don't agree with whatever the person is saying or because you perceive the person to be misguiding/misguided. If you state your arguments properly and show people why they are wrong; readers are much more likely to pick up on you as a source of information than the guy you are arguing with. The other guy can learn in his own time that he is wrong(or maybe he's actually right and is kind enough to record it so you can see it!) and then he can come back here to tell people he was wrong if he has the balls for it.

[Klaige]

Reaver, this thread isnt here for you to piss and moan about how you were treated by the moderators for whatever reason. This has nothing to do with how to discuss gameplay/strategy/whatever. On top of that, who's to say it has to take someone "years" to be respectable at GG. Maybe if it's a brand new player who's never played any kind of fighting game before, but i've personally watch players go from a complete newb to placing in big tournaments in less than 6 months. "Being honest" as you put it, no matter how nicely you try to say it, is still holding your status as a veteran player over people. I'm not saying to blow rainbows up peoples asses and tell them after a few days of training mode and casuals they are going to be takings top 3 in majors, but there's no reason to constantly remind new players "yep, you'll be losing for a very long time before you ever get good at this game. Probably years."

Furthermore, this only backs the point i've been trying to make. That if GGXRD offers up some simplicity and toning down of the execution or high difficulty things, that it could be a very good thing for the series and a very effective way to get more new players going down the road. Again, I absolutely refuse to go into details about how or what changes can work and work effectively to achieve this, because there are too many people like you that will turn it into some kind of ridiculous pissing match to prove who knows more about how the game "should" be played. Again, that's not the point of this thread.

[STenSatsu]

Ya, people really need to get over the mentality that GG is super hard to get into. It really isn't. FRCs and defense are the hardest part probably and 90% of NA still can't do defense =P. You can easily be middle of the pack at tournies quickly if you have fighting game experience. Most of the difficulty in getting into GG is just reasons it is hard to get into fighters as a whole.

Also, GG has been able to get a better rep for itself now rather than the black sheep rep it had when it was still 'big'. This means it is the perfect game to try and draw people to airdashers with because you don't get nearly as much of the 'anime player' shit for playing GG at the moment that you would playing BB, P4A, MB, or AH for example. I'm hoping Xrd is a really solid fighter for this reason. (Though I'm not super worried given ASW's track record on new iterations.) We already have people marveling at the visuals, besides animation that is, so at least we are good there.

I think with BBCP, Xrd, and P4A we have an amazing current game lineup for airdashers for people to pick and choose from as far as giving what people want.

EDIT: As far as company support, I don't think we should expect any help from ASW given the past. However, if we CAN make airdashers bigger in the US they have shown recent interest in NA so we might be able to get some support finally from them. We also have amazing people like the Aksys guys if they are still working with ASW on BB and maybe now GG. Just have to remember that we gotta help ourselves first.

Edited May 24, 2013 by STenSatsu

[Kurushii]

You guys need to calm down. Also read the rules update here. Mocking different races isn't needed in this discussion.

[Kaizen]

I have a question for the lot of you.

There's an arcade about 15 minutes from where I live, smack dab in the middle of Los Angeles. You'd expect anywhere in SoCal to have a thriving existent GG scene, but not here.

I used to go to Arcade Infinity and Family Fun Arcade near the ends of their lifespans, and went from being "some Sol scrub" to "that guy who uses that cheap ass Sol how brainless what a scrub nobody should ever lose to this guy" yet almost everyone does.

The problem is that, going into this now growing area, Japan Arcade, most players are on Melty Blood, SF4, Third Strike, and Blazblue. Most of them are afraid to jump on the GG machine when I play arcade mode because I actually know how to avoid Megalomania, as if it's the most impressive thing in the world. I tell them that they should play GG, because it's great. I jokingly talk smack about Melty amongst the regulars, but everybody knows that I actually respect it. But everybody there already has the mindset that GG is too hard. I explain that maybe it's a little more complex, but that there are characters who are relatively easy: Pot, Faust, May, Jam, and to a lesser extent, Sol, Ky, and Kliff whenever +R drops, since we're planning on getting a board for it sometime down the line.

How do I go about fixing this? These are players who are already dead decided that GG is too difficult, who quit after I go easy on them, and sometimes let them win. Sometimes I win by doing the SAME MOVE over and over, expecting them to try different things to punish them. I never outright tell them how to beat things, but mention that I do things that are unsafe, and that they should be punishing them. If players ask, I'm willing to help, but nobody seems to be willing to push forward their questions. I want to watch this community grow, but I don't want to hold people's hands through it: that doesn't really help anybody in the long run.

I once beat a Chipp player by doing NOTHING but Bandit Revolver, which is fairly unsafe and completely unsafe to throws. The point was obviously to try to make him learn how to deal with it, yet he just kept getting hit by it. No 6P, no throw, no nothing. Should I really just outright tell people "do this", or hope that they bother trying to learn?

Edited May 24, 2013 by Kaizen

[reaVer]

Reaver, this thread isnt here for you to piss and moan about how you were treated by the moderators for whatever reason.

Oh I'm sorry, I thought this thread was about identifying problems, my bad... But erm, then why is this thread here?

This has nothing to do with how to discuss gameplay/strategy/whatever.

So you are suggesting that people being silenced does not contribute to dustloop's poor image?

On top of that, who's to say it has to take someone "years" to be respectable at GG. Maybe if it's a brand new player who's never played any kind of fighting game before, but i've personally watch players go from a complete newb to placing in big tournaments in less than 6 months. "Being honest" as you put it, no matter how nicely you try to say it, is still holding your status as a veteran player over people. I'm not saying to blow rainbows up peoples asses and tell them after a few days of training mode and casuals they are going to be takings top 3 in majors, but there's no reason to constantly remind new players "yep, you'll be losing for a very long time before you ever get good at this game. Probably years."

No, I said it will take years before you get to a moderate level. And sorry, but I cannot count your majors as moderate level; you kinda blew that. Furthermore, if people can become really good at this game in 6 months, that's good for them. But that's not something you can expect from a player nor can the player expect that from himself. I know I sound pessimistic, but sadly that is how it is.

Furthermore, this only backs the point i've been trying to make. That if GGXRD offers up some simplicity and toning down of the execution or high difficulty things, that it could be a very good thing for the series and a very effective way to get more new players going down the road.

No, the fun is in the game's complexity. The fact that that makes the game fundamentally hard to play is a sideeffect that almost any of the dedicated players here are willing to take for granted. I don't think newer players should be spoonfed into winning matches. It's detrimental to the morale of the veteran players and it takes away what has kept veteran players into this game for so long.

That said, I've stated this before, easing up execution (AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T CAUSE AMBIGUITY) is one of the simplest things you can do to lower the initial barrier that newer players have to face. All of a sudden they don't have to spend weeks to learn to hit their FRCs, they won't need months of practice to get the FRCs into their muscle memory and that time can then be spent on learning the actual game instead, which to me is more important than how people do this.

Again, I absolutely refuse to go into details about how or what changes can work and work effectively to achieve this, because there are too many people like you that will turn it into some kind of ridiculous pissing match to prove who knows more about how the game "should" be played. Again, that's not the point of this thread.

A pressing match? You know... you're reflecting an awful lot on me, but your tone is almost as if you're waiting for me to have a go at you. But sure, as I'm easily provoked I'll just draw you a simple outline: We don't need FRCs to be this difficult or even inconsistent, it's just a random factor that completely dissappates when the player gets better and better while it does not limit any experienced player in any way. Having played and watched N.O at showdown, he dropped the ball(well, he dropped lots of balls since he plays venom) on his execution after like... me wailing on him, followed by Goga having a go at him, giving him some rest with a more nervous player and then me going at him again. Now me and Goga cannot play more than 30 matches against eachother without wearing eachother out. N.O faced us AFTER him playing for 8 hours straight during tournaments and what not. He simply wouldn't make mistakes like you and I would and having a system like FRCs is much more beneficial to him in that case than to me or you. On the other hand, I don't think the input buffer would need relaxation in terms of input, there's already enough cases of ambiguity and adding systems like found in SF4 where almost anything can become a dragonpunch just isn't beneficial. Nor do I think the combos need changing, the benefit of GG is that these combos can be tailored to your wishes and you can initiate one from almost anything. Yes it leads to difficult combos in some instances, but it wouldn't really matter for a newer player in the first place.

Kaizen: there's no such thing as too hard really. But GG definitely is one of those games you cannot step into with just one foot. Because if you do, you won't get anywhere. While when you step in with both feet you can see a whole new world opening to you. Well, I suppose there's no point in telling GG players that, but GG develops a player in more ways than one. As for the BR spam, just keep doing it. You can then when they ask help them logically deduce what to look for when beating that move. While this seems like treating them like retards, it helps them not just in this case, they can then look at other moves and go like "what properties do I need to beat that move? which of my moves have these properties?". All players that played with me have had their share of BR, BRP, Ri and BHB spam; but once they get passed that, they can deal with it, often in rather fearsome ways too.

Sadly, I will have to drag the misfortunes of other communities in here. People coming from other fightinggames often don't even have this kind of knowledge on hand. When I see other communities I tend to see one player doing something really stupid like stomping on someone's head with something like Chun Li's j2MK all the time and they call themselves moderate players. With what I know right now I know for a fact that they are not as smart as they think they are; but the reality is that that sort of stuff happens. You will have to get players over that hump where they can freely think for their own, rather than relying on a rulebook to plot out the scenarios for them.

Edited May 24, 2013 by reaVer

[Orrax]

I have a question for the lot of you.

There's an arcade about 15 minutes from where I live, smack dab in the middle of Los Angeles. You'd expect anywhere in SoCal to have a thriving existent GG scene, but not here.

I used to go to Arcade Infinity and Family Fun Arcade near the ends of their lifespans, and went from being "some Sol scrub" to "that guy who uses that cheap ass Sol how brainless what a scrub nobody should ever lose to this guy" yet almost everyone does.

The problem is that, going into this now growing area, Japan Arcade, most players are on Melty Blood, SF4, Third Strike, and Blazblue. Most of them are afraid to jump on the GG machine when I play arcade mode because I actually know how to avoid Megalomania, as if it's the most impressive thing in the world. I tell them that they should play GG, because it's great. I jokingly talk smack about Melty amongst the regulars, but everybody knows that I actually respect it. But everybody there already has the mindset that GG is too hard. I explain that maybe it's a little more complex, but that there are characters who are relatively easy: Pot, Faust, May, Jam, and to a lesser extent, Sol, Ky, and Kliff whenever +R drops, since we're planning on getting a board for it sometime down the line.

How do I go about fixing this? These are players who are already dead decided that GG is too difficult, who quit after I go easy on them, and sometimes let them win. Sometimes I win by doing the SAME MOVE over and over, expecting them to try different things to punish them. I never outright tell them how to beat things, but mention that I do things that are unsafe, and that they should be punishing them. If players ask, I'm willing to help, but nobody seems to be willing to push forward their questions. I want to watch this community grow, but I don't want to hold people's hands through it: that doesn't really help anybody in the long run.

I once beat a Chipp player by doing NOTHING but Bandit Revolver, which is fairly unsafe and completely unsafe to throws. The point was obviously to try to make him learn how to deal with it, yet he just kept getting hit by it. No 6P, no throw, no nothing. Should I really just outright tell people "do this", or hope that they bother trying to learn?

I always tell people how to deal with the stuff I do if they're having problems. Or with other stuff if they ask. I don't think you need to worry too much about "holding someone's hand," so to speak; people can get overly frustrated if they don't know how to deal with something.

But a big part of the problem is that if someone decides that something takes too much effort, then they're not going to bother in the first place. I don't think Melty Blood is an easy game by any means, yet people are seem more willing to put the effort that since it appears less complicated on the surface. Once people get an attitude that something is too hard, or isn't worth the effort, it's hard to change it -- the best way I've found is to offer a helping hand, but you still need people who are willing to put in the time in the first place. And such people seem to be increasingly scarce the older the game gets. Hopefully a new game (+R and eventually Xrd) will shake things up a bit.

[Jagd]

I have a question for the lot of you.

There's an arcade about 15 minutes from where I live, smack dab in the middle of Los Angeles. You'd expect anywhere in SoCal to have a thriving existent GG scene, but not here.

I used to go to Arcade Infinity and Family Fun Arcade near the ends of their lifespans, and went from being "some Sol scrub" to "that guy who uses that cheap ass Sol how brainless what a scrub nobody should ever lose to this guy" yet almost everyone does.

The problem is that, going into this now growing area, Japan Arcade, most players are on Melty Blood, SF4, Third Strike, and Blazblue. Most of them are afraid to jump on the GG machine when I play arcade mode because I actually know how to avoid Megalomania, as if it's the most impressive thing in the world. I tell them that they should play GG, because it's great. I jokingly talk smack about Melty amongst the regulars, but everybody knows that I actually respect it. But everybody there already has the mindset that GG is too hard. I explain that maybe it's a little more complex, but that there are characters who are relatively easy: Pot, Faust, May, Jam, and to a lesser extent, Sol, Ky, and Kliff whenever +R drops, since we're planning on getting a board for it sometime down the line.

How do I go about fixing this? These are players who are already dead decided that GG is too difficult, who quit after I go easy on them, and sometimes let them win. Sometimes I win by doing the SAME MOVE over and over, expecting them to try different things to punish them. I never outright tell them how to beat things, but mention that I do things that are unsafe, and that they should be punishing them. If players ask, I'm willing to help, but nobody seems to be willing to push forward their questions. I want to watch this community grow, but I don't want to hold people's hands through it: that doesn't really help anybody in the long run.

I once beat a Chipp player by doing NOTHING but Bandit Revolver, which is fairly unsafe and completely unsafe to throws. The point was obviously to try to make him learn how to deal with it, yet he just kept getting hit by it. No 6P, no throw, no nothing. Should I really just outright tell people "do this", or hope that they bother trying to learn?

That's just how they are. People won't change if they don't want to. If they're that adamant that GG is too hard, there's not much that can change their mind.

[Klaige]

Reaver you miss the point so hard it's laughable and to that end i'm not wasting anymore responses on you. If you want to go spout your opinions on this go do it in the XRD general discussion thread, you are the exact kind of person that's counter-productive to what i was trying to get across.

[Sophisticat]

@Kaizen: There's plenty you can do to change them!

I would advocate holding their hands for the initial learning period. Make them come on Dustloop and read up on their character of choice. Show them their options, what moves their character has, and how he can use them effectively. Demonstrate an effective use of a certain move against your spam. Teach them some simple combos they can do.

FGs are hard enough without having to learn them from scratch. I know it took me a good year or two before really becoming acquainted with all the terms, the execution, and how these games play. They are not intuitive at all. Of course, in today's age of Youtube it's a lot easier, but back when I started there was Dustloop and SRK, with info scattered all over the place. It took me a good while to gather it all because there was just so much of it. It would really take a dedicated individual to figure everything an FG has to offer from scratch...

So yes, hold their hands and hold nothing back. Show -- don't tell -- that the game is really simple and they'll either get it or move on to something else.

[M.Song]

@Kaizen: There's plenty you can do to change them!

I would advocate holding their hands for the initial learning period. Make them come on Dustloop and read up on their character of choice. Show them their options, what moves their character has, and how he can use them effectively. Demonstrate an effective use of a certain move against your spam. Teach them some simple combos they can do.

FGs are hard enough without having to learn them from scratch. I know it took me a good year or two before really becoming acquainted with all the terms, the execution, and how these games play. They are not intuitive at all. Of course, in today's age of Youtube it's a lot easier, but back when I started there was Dustloop and SRK, with info scattered all over the place. It took me a good while to gather it all because there was just so much of it. It would really take a dedicated individual to figure everything an FG has to offer from scratch...

So yes, hold their hands and hold nothing back. Show -- don't tell -- that the game is really simple and they'll either get it or move on to something else.

I thought the point of community building was to get people to keep playing, not have them move on to something else.

I think if you are teaching people, each people have to be taught differently. Not everybody learns the same way and everyone is always going to start with different amount of experience. By now, the majority of people that start fighters have probably given SF4 and marvel a go. I think that depending on how much experience they start with, you should vary how much you have to baby them along the way. I personally think that players should have to figure out how they want to use a character on their own, since that will generally lead to more creative ways of using the tools a character has.

Also this idea about teaching others how to play is not something that can really be applied to the new version until its been out for a while anyway, seeing how everything we've seen about the game is just speculation as to how the gameplay would be.

[Sophisticat]

Well, yes, you want them to keep playing, but you're not going to have a 100% retention rate among newcomers. So long as you retain some of those who are interested, then you'll keep growing.

For the above I was assuming the players had no FG experience at all. You can skip some steps if they have some experience, of course. Personal style is something you'll develop independently, so no worries there. Your job as a teacher should just be to show what you can do with the character and how the system works. The student will learn to use these and apply them to situations independently.

But they will need some babying to get there first is what I'm saying. If they believe the game is hard, then they're going to need to unlearn some of those preconceptions. A painstaking step-by-step introduction would be a nice start to break down these mental walls they've developed.

[The Katz]

In short, "Teach them the basics." If they have played other FG's, then they should be able to notice similarities, become more familiar, and hopefully 'relax' their view of the game's curve.

A learning curve might end up pretty steep near the end, but you don't start the climb half-way up it.

Edited May 25, 2013 by The Katz

[M.Song]

Well, yes, you want them to keep playing, but you're not going to have a 100% retention rate among newcomers. So long as you retain some of those who are interested, then you'll keep growing.

For the above I was assuming the players had no FG experience at all. You can skip some steps if they have some experience, of course. Personal style is something you'll develop independently, so no worries there. Your job as a teacher should just be to show what you can do with the character and how the system works. The student will learn to use these and apply them to situations independently.

But they will need some babying to get there first is what I'm saying. If they believe the game is hard, then they're going to need to unlearn some of those preconceptions. A painstaking step-by-step introduction would be a nice start to break down these mental walls they've developed.

You're right... not everyone that's going to start is going to want to follow through and keep playing. It also sounds like you either live in a place where everyone is going to start playing and its ok to have people lose interest, or your expectations of people wanting to play in the first place are too high. This is me speaking from personal observations. There's not going to be that many people as you think that even start playing and even less will want to continue playing for whatever reason.

[TH3MlLKMAN]

I couldn't agree with this more. I'd like nothing more than for more people to get to experience the series and I have enough faith in Arc that no matter what they change in Xrd to achieve that, the GG soul will remain intact. On our end, we should push for a better understanding among the fanbase because they're really all that's keeping Arc's games coming overseas as of right now and I need me my airdashers. I tell all my friends and new gamers I meet about Arc's games and a few have even tried them out and even less have actually continued playing them but I suppose that can't be helped. It, in part, falls to us to help to promote the games enough to overcome this poor retention rate because I cannot go back to other fighters now

[Kaizen]

There's a big meetup going on this Friday that's been getting a lot of word of excitement: a casual meetup for anybody playing Guilty Gear. Last week I saw a few people who were either just starting out or were expressing interest in picking the game up, and pretty much all I told them was "This game is awesome, you should play it." I also ran into a handful of people who jumped on the Virtual-On: OT machine and it blew my fucking mind that somebody was actually playing the best mech game period.

A friend of mine was screwing with a few newcomers and doing nothing but using the P button (as I-no) and still winning. I don't think that'd really be that big of a problem, but the guy kinda just stopped playing afterwards. I'm wondering if just watching us play is intimidating, I used to be that way with other fighting games until I actually saw Guilty Gear in action. Whereas a lot of players seem to think, "holy shit, that's what this game is? I can't do that, it's too much," my first thoughts were always, "holy fuck, I can do shit like THAT?! Sign me up."

I'm also bringing in some deep, lint-covered, pocket subs out for this meetup. But I think Eddie might be a bit much for these people...

[The Katz]

I also ran into a handful of people who jumped on the Virtual-On: OT machine and it blew my fucking mind that somebody was actually playing the best mech game period.

I'm pretty sure this is one of the most-truthful statements on Dustloop.

[Gramas]

GG isn't a game you just learn, it can take years before you get yourself on a respectable level. It's a game where you can spend hours in training mode, hours in arcade mode, days in casuals and still see little progress as far as results go. It's one of the amazing things that this game has yet can make it impossible for some players to play it. So it's always fair to tell people that when they are getting into this game, they are gettiing themselves into a real challenge that can take them years to overcome.

ye...like you need a degree in rocket science to be decent at gg

Fighting games aren't even close to other videogames genre in terms of "time spent" to be decent

Edited May 27, 2013 by Gramas

[Digital Watches]

Fighting games, starcraft, DotA, whatever. Any sufficiently complex competitive game is going to be hard to master compared to other things, because the upper echelons of difficulty are people, not game mechanics. Saying "fighting games are harder than starcraft" is comparing apples to fish, and so far as I know there's not good research to base an epistemically rational comparison of "difficulty" on. Nonetheless, remembering this is important for anyone who wants to play a competitive game.

[Sophisticat]

FGs probably do have the steepest learning curve/barrier to entry, though. Games like Starcraft and DotA are easy enough to grasp the basics of... But it personally took me a good year or two to do that with FGs, and I'm still learning...