[P4AU] News & Gameplay Discussion

[Androu1]

Not gameplay related per se, but I just want to say that I hope ASW uses a story mode structure similar to BBCP. The separate character stories were such a chore being that a lot of them were practically the same.

What is the story structure like in BBCP?

Regardless, YES PLEASE. There were about 4 worthwhile stories in P4A, really: Yu, Elizabeth, Labrys and Naoto/Mitsuru (I think only one of them just to know how the P3 cast gets involved in P4A's events. I forget how it went down in the end but I think Mitsuru's was the most complete).

Every other was basically a variation of Yu's and Mitsuru's.

Sure, I had a laugh with some of the dialogue in every single story mode despite them being so damn samey but it basically amounts to filler.

[Elochai]

Instead of separate character stories, BBCP has three different story "arcs" (maybe scenario or route is a better word). Each of them tell a different story, but they converge at the game's true end, so everything is tied together. This is much better IMO, because it's as you said; mostly everyone's story is a variation rather than something original.

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[shoryusatsu999]

Somehow, I don't really see that kind of story mode happening. Weren't the grouped story modes easy to do in CP because everyone was already traveling in small groups? P4U2's story seems to involve separating everyone, so grouped story modes would be at odds with that.

But that should probably go to Zepp anyway.

[Androu1]

Somehow, I don't really see that kind of story mode happening. Weren't the grouped story modes easy to do in CP because everyone was already traveling in small groups? P4U2's story seems to involve separating everyone, so grouped story modes would be at odds with that.

But that should probably go to Zepp anyway.

It could work like it does in any other story with multiple protagonists: shows up what is happening somewhere then switch to another and so on. That could work, perhaps. However, if they are all completely separated then maybe they at least can make every character's story completely unique instead of doing some lazy filler like in P4A.

But yeah, maybe should go to Zepp? It is kind of story discussion, even if we are discussing how boring it was to PLAY the story...

[Akiro]

I remember seeing in an article somewhere that the story will be broken into "P4 characters", "P3 characters" , and "Finale" so it might be a bit similar to CP.

[HoudiniJr100]

yeah, again take it to the zepp museum.

whats really making me confused about shadow characters is they have no IK...any idea why?

[FluxWaveZ]

yeah, again take it to the zepp museum.

whats really making me confused about shadow characters is they have no IK...any idea why?

Because it could make things really crazy given that their SP carries over between rounds, because their SP climbs up really fast and because of their Shadow Fury state, in addition to probably aesthetics (I can't imagine characters like Shadow Teddie, Shadow Yu and Shadow Yukiko performing the same IKs their counterparts do). To make it work, the Shadow characters would probably need, for the most part, entirely different IKs as well as different conditions to fulfill their activation.

[HoudiniJr100]

Because it could make things really crazy given that their SP carries over between rounds, because their SP climbs up really fast and because of their Shadow Fury state, in addition to probably aesthetics (I can't imagine characters like Shadow Teddie, Shadow Yu and Shadow Yukiko performing the same IKs their counterparts do). To make it work, the Shadow characters would probably need, for the most part, entirely different IKs as well as different conditions to fulfill their activation.

yeah, a fair point :P

....shadow kanji IK forbidden murmur? (or whatever that one where he strikes the male sex symbols on the ground and causes purple electricity is called)

[Pete278]

I feel like not giving Shadow Naoto a Midnight Bliss IK was an oversight

[F. Wily]

I feel like not giving Shadow Naoto a Midnight Bliss IK was an oversight

True, but I feel that the story dictates that.

[OutlawVinegar]

Merry Christmas Dustloop people!

...With that out of the way, I'm going to throw some scattered thoughts and observations out there, based on what gameplay I've sen from videos. Hopefully one thing or the other will spark more gameplay-related discussion.

General:

Collapsed: System changes + flow changes:

Most of the new autocombos I've seen seem to be very good at catching jumpouts; Mitsuru, Kanji, Teddie, Yosuke, Labrys, all these became better at doing damage, gaining meter, and getting the positioning the character wants. Kanji and Yosuke get knockdown, Mitsuru and Teddie get a lot of corner carry, etc.

The First Attack meter bonus is interesting. Does getting the first hit give a Burst meter bonus as well? Also, ArcSys, fix your throw system. Attempting a throw on the opponent counts as a First Hit, even if the defender techs it!

Very little use of Guard-cancel rolls so far. Hop-cancels also aren't being used as much, a month or so in.

SB Supers are extremely dumb-looking. Giving them extra properties is fine by me, but the extra damage seems a bit much. I'd prefer that everyone get a health boost to compensate, because several Supers already did 45-50% on the cast in P4A.

Characters:

Collapsed: Narukami:

Narukami: I'm finding it cathartic, seeing all the Narukami players struggle because they actually have to play neutral now. He still looks like an exceedingly strong character, so I'm certain he's going to stay in Top 5 or right below that at worst.

His command grab/charge seems moderately useful. It's only being used sparingly, which implies to me that it can be mashed out of pretty easily. It's probably a tool best used after you've forced some respect out of your opponent. His Raging Lion feint looks a lot more useful.

Collapsed: Yukiko:

Yukiko: Looks like she'll be the new Naoto. No, by that I don't mean everyone's going to claim she sucks and sleep on her options. She looks like the sort of character who can abruptly steal the round with ease. Naoto had her SMP loop, Yukiko has her 5AAA > Fire Break reset, which I've already seen breaking 6k damage in total for around 75 meter.

That said, even though I think the tech is slightly dumb, I'm sure once people figure out how to stop getting hit by some of the Fire Break stuff (Guard Cancel roll if you think she's going to do a 5C>2C blockstring into UB!) she's going to remain a strong character, much better than she already was in P4A. The utility of Fire Break looks dangerous now; just having the buff up is going to let her control the opponent's actions much more easily.

Also, her new special move with the Fire Level 6 requirement? It looks really good, but the drawbacks of gaining Fire levels haven't been addressed at all, so it's probably not going to be a viable option at all in half her matchups. The ones where I can see her getting it, though... Akihiko, Kanji, Labrys, Junpei, Yukari?

Collapsed: Labrys:

Labrys: Not a ton of footage for her out there, but PurePure seems to have figured out some stuff. Her new bubble move has potential! It's useable like a second version of her 22x moves for combo/hitstun fodder, and maybe it will have other applications?

Did her Sweep get buffed? It looks faster and safer now. Or at least fewer people are punishing it.

Collapsed: Junpei:

Junpei: Looks hype. I want to see this character in EVO 2014-2015 Top 8, because I'm sure he'd get the crowd going if someone played him at a really high level; Clean Hits, Home Runs, and baseball slides all the way to Grand Finals.

That said, I'm not sure what to make of him. He looks cool, he's got some blatantly good normals and his Persona covers some spectacular angles for neutral, but he seems like an alternate Labrys. Very momentum-based, with a middle-of-the-road or maybe slightly bad DP. The throw system in this game also seems to work against his 'runs' 100% (attempting a throw and getting it teched counts as a hit against him, and teching a throw attempt still counts as a hit against him).

Collapsed: Yukari:

Yukari: Great damage from what I'm seeing in videos, decent fullscreen options, very good midscreen control, and very dangerous to approach from the air. That's cool and all...

But where is this character's mixup? Her AoA seems above-average for sure, and her 5A appears to hit low, but outside of that? It looks like most of the people losing to her are getting pecked at in neutral, then lose because they don't know how to chase her down yet. Either that, or they're losing to her one strong mixup; Mahagaru nonsense. That Super looks extremely dumb but it seems to even out, because before she hits Awakening Yukari doesn't seem to have any actual way of opening people up.

Also her 5B (single arrow shot) seems to be low-profiled by half the cast just running forward (I've seen it miss Kanji and Chie 'dodge' it this way). Lower your aim a bit, girl.

Collapsed: Sho:

Regular (R-)Sho: Seems like the old Yosuke a little. Really low damage on individual hits, crappy health, and a very flat gameplan. Throwing knives and having a dodge move with invul don't help the resemblance, either. I want to see someone find something interesting with this character.

Also, good job ArcSys, making his Awakening Super the new Garudyne. It does almost 5k if you hit it raw CH, but put even one 5A/2A before it and the damage drops to nothing. 900 minimum damage or something?

[Guymam]

Narukami is still a god. Easily one of the best characters in the game. He's still retarded.

[RurouniLoneWolf]

Don't want to make a giant post so I'm ninja-stealing your collapse tech ^,^

Collapsed: Thoughts on Outlaw's thoughts:

Autocombos all around seem to be a pretty nice improvement, not just functionally but also in terms of looks. It feels like they fit their character's even more suitably now. Doesn't really look like first attack gives a bonus for the burst gauge from what I've seen but I could be wrong. Xiei spoke briefly about guard cancel rolls in the stream chat during NEC. Supposedly, they're kind of slow, which makes its use limited. Still, it should have its uses.

I've seen Labrys and Chie players experimenting with hop cancels for both blockstrings and combos. In blockstrings, they seem to be mostly useful because the blockstun of the jump normal + being done very low to the ground + the forward hop putting you right back next to the opponent = pressure reset. It's a gamble though since unless they've changed it in P4U2, you can't block during a hop so you probably won't see it too often.

Not really sure what you are talking about with SB Supers. The extra damage seems reasonable for the extra 25 meter. I presume you're mostly talking about SB Reversal Awakening Supers on CH? Don't really have any comment on this because I highly suspect that they aren't going to be very practical to attempt in a few months.

Narukami's B version of the command grab can probably be very easily be mashed or jumped out of on reaction. SB version looks more tricky though. I wonder if using the A version, which is a downward slash instead of a command grab, can be used to condition people to not push buttons or jump too. Either way, just using the grab sparingly will be enough to make it effective. Also, pretty much agree with Guyman that Narukami is still overall one of the best characters in the game. But it's early so we'll see.

Labrys sweep is still probably unsafe but normally Labrys players cancel it into Guillotine Axe so people probably aren't punishing it because they were expecting the Guillotine axe but it never came.

On the topic of Yukari's mixup, I think that most of the cast is still in the process of improving their mixup/pressure. Well, except for Aigis and Akihiko, who didn't really change much in this aspect. Not sure she really needs to improve from where she is now though since her focus is on zoning. Also, I wouldn't really say mahagarula is all that powerful. Because the tornado doesn't really prevent you from seeing what Yukari is doing and her mixups are straight forward, I really don't think it's all that hard to just sit there and block all the mixups if you are familiar with all her options.

[Etherlight]

I really liked the way they changed Yukiko going from P4A to P4U2. She lost some of her full-screen oki and her 2D unblockables are harder with the Agi change but she gets more raw damage and a much more threatening Fire Break. IMO increase in damage is much better than oki, especially since her oki wasn't as insane as the rest of the cast.

And about Fire Break, I agree. Fire Break was good in P4A but was difficult to use outside of corner set-ups. Now, with 214A/B and her 5AAA > Maragi D, it's much more easier to land and much more dangerous. Any CH ground confirm is going to net Yukiko 4k meterless when she has it up, which is insane. She doesn't even have to commit to using her Fire Break charge in blockstrings, giving her way more mid-screen mix-up options. Also, Fire Break SB Maragidyne is lulzy as well. Overall, really like the changes she got. As for her defensive options, it seems that Dia has less recovery but most of her problems on defense came from her slow moves. Once we get the frame data we can see if they adjusted it at all.

Despite people calling the Vermilion Bird special really good, I haven't really this move much at all. I imagine it's because of that Fire Lv. requirement and that certain matches don't really require it. However, this move might be integral against S.Lab because it's fast and huge-hitbox can easily give her the ability to break Asterius, something she had so much trouble before. But we'll see once people put more time into the game. Edit: Also seems good against Aigis as the special apparently beats the bullets. Awesome.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Etherlight

[Diveman]

How come Elizabeth is still bad/underplayed? I thought she got buffed and all.

[Luminos564]

How come Elizabeth is still bad/underplayed? I thought she got buffed and all.

She did. It's just that everyone else outclasses her still even with her new buffs. Her damage output is also lower now so that might be another reason why.

[RurouniLoneWolf]

1) How do you know Liz is bad? If she's underplayed, then there's going to be less footage of her, which in turn means you're less likely to see footage of good Liz players. So if you're just judging based on footage, it's kind of a weird conclusion to come to.

2) A character's overall strength isn't the only, or even the most important, factor that determines how much they'll be played. Ease of use/Complexity is probably a more important factor. Take Shadow Labrys for example. Great character but overall, an unpopular character because low health + puppet character.

[Luminos564]

In case you were referring to me:

1) How do you know Liz is bad? If she's underplayed, then there's going to be less footage of her, which in turn means you're less likely to see footage of good Liz players. So if you're just judging based on footage, it's kind of a weird conclusion to come to.

I didn't call her bad though. I only said that even though she got some better tools, most other characters can still leave her in the dust. Yes, footage of her is a lot lower in comparison to the others, but what is available is evidence enough to support my claim. At least for now.

2) A character's overall strength isn't the only, or even the most important, factor that determines how much they'll be played. Ease of use/Complexity is probably a more important factor. Take Shadow Labrys for example. Great character but overall, an unpopular character because low health + puppet character.

That's one way to look at it. But it is a fact that Lizzie's damage is lower than it was in P4A, which was one of her few benefits in that game. Now, she gets out-damaged by characters like Yu for a lot less work (read: easier) so there's that. I'm not saying you're wrong though.

[RurouniLoneWolf]

I wasn't referring to you but your opinion pretty much brings up all the concerns of my post. How can you know Liz's bad based off month 1 footage of Liz players whose skill with the character is unknown? How can Liz having lower damage be an undeniable fact when 1) the skill of the Liz players you've seen so far is still in question 2) It's only been a month since the game released and the game didn't even have a training mode to properly experiment in until last week. Also, I'm confused. I don't really understand the connection you were trying to make between character's being underplayed for reasons beyond character strength and Liz having lower damage

Maybe if you were getting this information from tweets or other means directly from good Liz players in Japan I'd consider these claims more credible but right now, it just feels like jumping to conclusions, which is unnecessary.

[MegaGrandTale]

I always thought Liz was a good character and still is in P4U2. It's just people gravitate towards characters that can win almost everytime once they know how to use the character. Liz is combo heavy and one dropped combo can almost kill her. Even more so now with SP Supers and most recovery moves now being Fatal Counter.

[Elochai]

I always thought Liz was a good character...

Would you care to explain? Just curious is all.

[Dazardz]

Would you care to explain? Just curious is all.

j.B

But overall I think she either got worse or is pretty much still how she was in the last game in terms of balance. They buffed her j.B range and 5B range, gave her j.2B, gave her randomizer. All that is cool but losing her damage was critical, and she still has the lowest health (right?) in the game. Then if she loses her persona cards, she's worse than Arakune without curse. Don't forget she doesn't have a good r-action/dp.

I really would have liked to see what a shadow version of her could have turned out as.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Dazardz

[MegaGrandTale]

Would you care to explain? Just curious is all.

I always found that her air approach was good against most characters and her pressure worked most of the time. Sure she's predictable in most cases but she could end the round in little time with just one reset. Kind of like how Naoto is like now in P4U2. The roar is still good cause of the armor, and her grab reset always works if the opponent is recoverying too early

[Diveman]

It's actually more than that. Liz doesn't have a reliable way of getting damage or pressure, so she has to "gimmick" her way. That can work but not every time, so more often than not there will be matches where you just can't gimmick someone and forced to play a more solid game which is where she's lacking. I know this is also not related but even Okusan dropped her for Sho, he even said he wans't so sure about Liz in P4U2 anymore because the changes didn't really help her that much

[TD]

It just balanced her utility/damage ratio. She needed balance, but more than that. She needed improvements. Starting with an actual high/low game. She has some of the worst mixup I have ever seen.

Does she still have her suicide button (6ab on block)? That would be just totally freaking magnificent.

Edited December 28, 2013 by TD