[AC+R BUG] Abusing button macros to get negative edge inputs during every single frame

[Spark]

I think it didn't matter in the end because of the firmware update for the hitbox that made it so holding left and right gave you neutral.

[Rhiya]

Well with this glitch actually allows people to execute things the game didn´t allow them before:

JAKE abusing the button macro glitch to fire several shots of the same N.B. with Justice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgV6dSobYh4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoCHlXWBSSY

This while at the same time making x amount of situations more easily executed than intended - when compared with the original arcade version. But I feel that we won´t agree on this concept no matter how long might we discuss it Although I hear what you´re saying, and I do understand your concern. I also am also actively taking an approach that can be interpreted as extremely elitistic to pour some fuel on the fire, since I honestly do think this is a discussion worth having for all tournament organizers around the world. Regardless of what people think of button macros in general - drama could happen because of this glitch, iz all im zaying. I would argue that this is an inconvenient truth.

Easier exec being banworthy, I'm not going to see.

That Justice glitch, though? ...Yeah, even I'll admit that's worth a ban. So much for easier exec. Hope this gets patched.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Dusk Thanatos

[RoBoBOBR]

Ultimate MVC3 fixed that bug on the game's side.

[Rhannmah]

well, what do people think of turbo buttons? this is essentially the same thing.

[Rhiya]

well, what do people think of turbo buttons? this is essentially the same thing.

This is actually very different, since turbo registers both the press and release repeatedly. This only repeatedly registers the release.

[M.Song]

if this is allowed in tournaments you might as well allow ex chars as well

[Amadeus46Art]

if this is allowed in tournaments you might as well allow ex chars as well

That's a bit of an exaggeration.

Also, I'm maintaining my stance of "ban macros for characters that can abuse a macro glitch". If we find that Baiken and Justice are extremely powerful with the glitch, and the Baiken and Justice communities understand and agree, I think we should just ban the using macros with those characters. No reason to punish every player that uses macros just because some characters they don't use can abuse it. That's stupid.

Edit: Also, I did some testing in training mode. Justice doing multiple NB like that is possible without macro; it's the same situation as Bridget's old Yo-Yo recall glitch. If you release and press the button within 1 frame, Justice will fire another NB without detonating the first. Same as how Buri could hold the Yo-Yo in place by tapping the H button really fast.

Edit 2: Went ahead and recorded a vid of what I meant: I use the pause button cause I'm on pad, but it should be doable on stick with fast enough fingers. Not gonna say if this is evidence for/against banning macros, but it is some cool Justice tech that I hadn't seen before:

Edited September 10, 2013 by Amadeous

[BioLogIn]

More of the same, with input:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIhuRpxcPW8

[Rhiya]

snip

I guess the next question is, what do we do when we get Justice players that can reliably do this without the macro? It's gonna happen.

[qwerty]

This is pretty silly, lol. If it doesn't get fixed at some point, it really should be banned. This is some GameShark shit, and you all know it.

[ehuangsan]

I agree with Final Showdown. I never understood why button macros were allowed in tourneys in the first place; none of the old school pad players that I know use them and you would be screwed in an SBO or Japanese arcade cab situation.

In any case, the standard has always been that if you can't do the same thing in an arcade setting on an actual arcade cab, then it's banned even if the glitch doesn't do anything that you could've done otherwise.

This glitch would not be doable at a Japanese arcade for example, so macros should be banned even though you aren't doing anything that a top player couldn't have done himself.

SSBM and MvC3 are exceptions because they are originally console.

EDIT: FWIW, as an example CvS2 tourneys ban button macros even though there's no discernable advantage in having them other than easier roll cancels.

Edited September 17, 2013 by ehuangsan

[M.Song]

when you manually do the 1 frame button repress, can you do it more than once to allow for 3+ of the same bomb

i know for certain when you alternate between two bombs you can get three of one kind and two of another on the screen at once and i need to test this out again but i think you can get four of the same bomb if you use the macro but only go for one bomb over and over

[Eshi]

I guess the next question is, what do we do when we get Justice players that can reliably do this without the macro? It's gonna happen.

I have pretty good execution on stick, I tried doing this in training mode for a good hour and didn't succeed even once. It is insanely hard to do without pausing or macros.

[SuperJ]

i may be comparing apples and oranges, but sf4 has select plinking which isn't banned despite being impossible in arcade

more food for thought: imagine if guilty gear had sf4-style button configuration (lol). you don't get the benefit of infinite negative edge but you still get to spam missiles. would the rule then be 'P/K/S/H/D can be mapped to only one button'? seems pretty arbitrary. also consider: if people are willing to remap their buttons to select, some crafty justice player WILL map duplicate P/K buttons on their stick

sorta unrelated but do pop-n-music buttons require as much force to push down as a regular 30mm sanwa button? if not i wonder why divekick players make those giant controllers just to make things harder for themselves

Edited September 17, 2013 by SuperJ

[TD]

even with good execution, i'm not sure a mere hour would suffice gor something of this magnitude.

if, however, you devote alot of your time to the effort of learning this skill, it is possible. in AC, ruu does the yo-yo glitch on stick alot, sometimes while doing multiple other college degree technical stuff.

the point being that insane difficulty doesn't stop the theatre. the difference of course being justice's glitch looks a lot more dangerous than resetting a yo-yo.

[Digital Watches]

I guess the next question is, what do we do when we get Justice players that can reliably do this without the macro? It's gonna happen.

I can do it occasionally (Like not often, but without pause button? Probably something someone could practice up and get reliable), and honestly I'm not seeing it as being super useful. I mean, you've got marginally more options as far as your screen control, and there are some weird empire combos you can get, but ultimately NBs scale the shit out of your damage anyway, so you're not going to see a dramatic increase in Justice's damage or capabilities for mastering this skill (Unlike AC bridget yo-yo glitch). It's of marginal, situational use, and will probably be very hype if it ever comes up in a big tournament... ish, for people who see it and know what's going on and care. Honestly I see no point in banning macros for this purpose.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Digital Watches

[M.Song]

i may be comparing apples and oranges, but sf4 has select plinking which isn't banned despite being impossible in arcade

more food for thought: imagine if guilty gear had sf4-style button configuration (lol). you don't get the benefit of infinite negative edge but you still get to spam missiles. would the rule then be 'P/K/S/H/D can be mapped to only one button'? seems pretty arbitrary. also consider: if people are willing to remap their buttons to select, some crafty justice player WILL map duplicate P/K buttons on their stick

sorta unrelated but do pop-n-music buttons require as much force to push down as a regular 30mm sanwa button? if not i wonder why divekick players make those giant controllers just to make things harder for themselves

sf4 players also didn't ban the console only chars in tournament which is pretty different considering most console tournaments were run in ways to make it as close to arcade as possible

even if you map gg buttons like sf4 style, the game still doesn't let you map a single input to multiple buttons so it doesn't really matter

and yes the pop-n buttons aren't as sensitive as sanwas, but they are more fun to press in my opinion

and since you use your entire hand instead of just 1 finger, it doesn't really make all that much of a difference in the end

[SuperJ]

to clarify the button remap, i mean rewiring your stick so triangle/square/whatever can be triggered by two different buttons

[Rhiya]

I've mostly just seen people rewire the stick to put select/back as one of the eight buttons on the front so that they could plink with it. Completely impossible in an arcade, but tourney legal.

I'm not sure why we're trying to make our tourneys exactly like arcade tourneys, tbh. If that's the desire, actually run them on cabs. If they're not run on cabs, it's different in so many ways from the start that making rules to make tournaments more "arcade-like" is just going to be making a bunch of arbitrary rules. I said it before: if you -really- want it to be like the arcades, you'd have to ban pads, have everyone use the same sticks, etc. etc.

[qwerty]

If that's the desire, actually run them on cabs.

Running +R on actual arcade hardware is impossible for obvious reasons; running the console ports on cabinets is highly impractical.

I said it before: if you -really- want it to be like the arcades, you'd have to ban pads, have everyone use the same sticks, etc. etc.

I think you misunderstand the point of using the arcade as a standard. It's not about replicating the experience 100% (since that's impossible without using the actual arcade hardware), rather coming as close as possible.

There are some allowances that have to be made, obviously. Letting people play on pad is one of them, since not everyone can afford a stick (I know I was in that boat for a long time), nor does everyone want to play on stick. That, and it's generally considered a disadvantage, anyways.

Macros... well, they weren't much of an issue until now. They do still lag by 1f which makes them undesirable for FRC's, but now we have to take in to account that they autofire negative edge. In light of this discovery, I'm for banning them, but I'm not really part of the US tournament scene anymore so

[Amadeus46Art]

Macros... well, they weren't much of an issue until now. They do still lag by 1f which makes them undesirable for FRC's, but now we have to take in to account that they autofire negative edge. In light of this discovery, I'm for banning them, but I'm not really part of the US tournament scene anymore so

I see this thrown out a lot but I've never seen any actual data verify this. A while ago I had Circuitous run the game on an emulator using frame advance to test how much delay there was for a macro; we found there wasn't any sort of "macro delay" at all. Pressing the macro button does exactly the same thing as pressing 3 buttons at once, there's no added input delay or such. Unless there's a line of code or some other test proving otherwise, I'm not believing the "Macros have delay" myth I've seen for so many years.

Onto the actual discussion; I feel that "until now" is misleading. As it's been pointed out, this glitch has existed since PS2 GG, and plenty of tournaments were run without macros being banned. Are you saying it's only an issue now because a certain character can make use of it to an extent where it would affect high level play? As Watches pointed out, it's perfectly doable on stick without a macro, which beyond "filling the screen with projectiles" doesn't do much for Justice. Which, beyond looking intimidating, I haven't had the chance to fight a Justice that uses it so I can't say if it really breaks the character.

Again, I'm pushing for a middle ground. Banning macros across the board for everyone is silly when only one, ARGUABLY two characters can abuse them to make a difference in actual play. For anyone that uses macros and plays one of the 23 other characters in the game, it's ridiculous.

Also: To anyone saying "macros are just a crutch, learn how to play the game without them"...execution is subjective. I can tell you for a fact that I can't hit Jam's 236P FRC on a pad without a macro, yet I have a friend of mine who also plays pad, and can hit the FRC on it and on Bandit Revolver just fine without macros. He didn't grind them out in training mode, he can just do some things easier than I can. Just because something doesn't affect you doesn't mean you shouldn't be conscious of who it does affect.

[qwerty]

Are you saying it's only an issue now because a certain character can make use of it to an extent where it would affect high level play?

Yes.

I mean, if you all feel it's necessary to keep macros for pad players, then by all means. Just don't be surprised when people find even more ways to exploit this and turn the game in to something it isn't.

Come to think of it, couldn't you use this to mash Slashback? Like, maybe this is how the CPU cheats with Slashbacking.

[Circuitous]

You can't negative edge slashback.

[Kyle]

this is turning into another debate. Pad+Macro's or use a stick.

>_>

I support using a stick above all else.

This glitch is silly and should be banned BTW.

[qwerty]

You can't negative edge slashback.

The things you realize right after you post. So the CPU cheating with Slashback is still a mystery.