enzi Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) Greetings! I've been trying to pick up Kagura as a main and since my training partner is a Tager player, I've been trying to find some 720 safe setups in the corner. Unfortunately I've found that this setup works mainly with 6A/5B/2B/6B/3C/j.B/deep j.C as starters. If you try to do this setup with 1 or 2 5A/2A/j.A they'll end up teching too soon for the combo to finish. the most common route would be: (j.B/deep j.C)/(6A) > 5BB> 3C > 6DC > 1DC > 46B > 1C > 4C > slightly delayed 46B or delayed 46A (if you're afraid of Magnatech, use 46A) Generally this setup pushes kagura away from Tager's 720 range so that he doesn't get caught when waking up. This might need more testing, but even a delayed 46B should keep you safe from Magnatech Wheel as you recover. Usually this combo should take you out of magnetism by the time you get to the setup, but just in case if you are magnetized you will get caught if Tager decides to 720. If this is the case be sure to use a slightly delayed 46A for a meaty setup and faster recovery to jump/backdash for safe measures. I haven't messed around too much with the delay-tech anti-measures, but it's the same pretty much for any similar situation.. If only they made his 2C or 5C emergency tech or something for that hard knockdown : ( alternatively if you start with 5A/2A/j.A, simply omit the 4C and finish with a slightly delayed 46A so it doesn't combo. 5A/2A/j.A/ > 5BB> 3C > 6DC > 1DC > 46B > 1C > slightly delayed 46A. This will put you in range of his 720 regardless if you're magnetized or not, so jump away or backdash to get out of range. The delayed 46A should be meaty enough to help stop mashing, but there are always those situations where it just happens. If you're magnetized while doing this, jump/jump back and block. Feel free to mess around with it, the 1C > 4C pushes kagura in the same distance so you can test it out with other characters as well. Edited October 30, 2013 by enzi
Heroic_Legacy Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 Thank you this was helpful. Now for the love of Kagura can someone tell me how you're supposed to do the 5DC > D28D ender that most of his combos have? What I get is: They either tech, or I'm facing the opposite direction. I can't seem to detect what makes it work when I DO get it. 5dC moves Kagura far forward so time 2D as Kagura's at the furthest point forward in his 5dC swing. Then 28D when it'll hit.
Kakimori Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 I'm really liking 6DC > 5DA as a "safe approach" option, stuffed a Houtenjin and god knows how many other things with it today. 5DA is just great in general.
LoVeBirD- Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 I agree Kakimori. Been practicing a few games with him after spending some games with Litchi. 6DC > 5DA is great. His jA is also a pretty good button From playing with Kagura so far, it seems like you need to just be very patient until you find that opening or get in. Once you get that knockdown or get in, it's party time.
dobiqwolf Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 I don't know if this have been posted but Kagura can 5A>5BB>jc>jB>jC on a standing Azrael.
LoVeBirD- Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 5dC moves Kagura far forward so time 2D as Kagura's at the furthest point forward in his 5dC swing. Then 28D when it'll hit. Thank you, got it down consistently now.
dobiqwolf Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 About D,28D, you can do it like this [2]D>8D and he will perform the super
MikelAL93 Posted October 30, 2013 Author Posted October 30, 2013 About D,28D, you can do it like this [2]D>8D and he will perform the super Yes, that's when you buffer it while shifting to a different stance or during a combo when using it as a finisher.
evid3nts Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 I just did some testing myself and looks like you can quick roll 2DB,B-orb Oki but you CAN'T escape 2DC,B-orb Oki. 2DC,B-orb forces your opponent to block or take a blue beat orb which still grants us a mixup. Regardless of what they think they can do they're f*ucked we will just have to react accordingly following the late tech. 2C, B-orb ender forces the same thing, so with that in mind when ending combos with 2DB ect. DON'T go for B-orb unless you have conditioned your opponent. 2DB,A-orb WILL CATCH forward rolls and back rolls and force the opponent to block if they choose to late tech which they always will!!!! I've been looking at oki options from 2DC 46B, 2DB 46A/B and I'm planning to write a new post on those later. I've started taking another look at 2DA 46B, which I thought was perfect because you can time it so that you can block neutral tech reversal (e.g. Noel 6-frame gun super) and also prevent them from rolling forward past you or the orb. However, it looks like you can quick tech and reversal to beat this timing. So it looks like, if you do 2DA 46B, you have to choose between preventing forward roll (and get punished by quick tech reversal) and preventing quick tech reversal (and get punished by forward roll). Although, I still have to test whether you can rapid cancel 46B on reaction to quick tech to bait that option. On the upside, if the opponent has no reversal, they have no way to avoid blocking the 46B. (Also, I cannot do quick tech reversal Noel 632146C reliably at all. I had to test with Ragna 623C. :P )
FatalCounter Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I just took 2 hours and 15 to unlook Kagura. He is different from most the cast and I love it. Training all days, sir!
Ryukagura Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 Thank you I didn't know that I had to press 1 as well. That would explain a lot, his combos still feel really easy to drop though.
Bill307 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) I just did some testing myself and looks like you can quick roll 2DB,B-orb Oki but you CAN'T escape 2DC,B-orb Oki. 2DC,B-orb forces your opponent to block or take a blue beat orb which still grants us a mixup. Regardless of what they think they can do they're f*ucked we will just have to react accordingly following the late tech. 2C, B-orb ender forces the same thing, so with that in mind when ending combos with 2DB ect. DON'T go for B-orb unless you have conditioned your opponent. 2DB,A-orb WILL CATCH forward rolls and back rolls and force the opponent to block if they choose to late tech which they always will!!!! Pretty much yeah. If your combo is short and didn't already use 46B, then 2DC immediate 46B is the way to go. If they don't emergency tech, you can react to it and 6C into a nice 2.7k to 3.6k combo. For example: Collapsed: combos: Near midscreen to their corner: 2A 2B 3C 2DC 46B (blue beat) 6C 6DB 5DC 2DA (delay 46B oki) [3086 +22] Just over midscreen, difficult: 2A 2B 3C 2DC 46B (blue beat) 6C 6DA 2DB (46A oki near corner) [2762 +19] Anywhere: 2A 2B 3C 2DC 46B (blue beat) 6C 6DA 3C 6DC [2884 +20] Anywhere: 2A 2B 3C 2DC 46B (blue beat) 6C 6DA 2DA 5DC 28C [3604 +25] (I should cross-post these to the combo thread...) However, if you've already hit them with 46B or if the hitstun loss is too high, they can just air tech after being hit by 46B. You could delay the 46B so it doesn't OTG them, but then they can just roll backwards to escape. In this case, you'd might as well end the combo in 3C 2DC 5DA 6DC for corner carry (or 3C 6DC 2DB if you're close enough to the corner already). Also, for some reason, 46B does not OTG Kagura! So in the Kagura mirror, you should again go for the corner carry BnB. (edit: not necessarily: see my next post) Lastly, I did a lot of testing with 2DB 46A/B oki in the corner and here's a "short list" of stuff I found: - If you do 46A immediately, they can roll forward without being picked up. - If you delay 46A slightly, they can't roll forward and you still recover in time to block an emergency tech 6-frame reversal (Noel gun super). - Assuming you delayed 46A slightly, you can option select forward roll, backward roll, quick tech, and do nothing with 5B into a 3.6k combo into 2DA 46B oki. Unfortunately, if they neutral tech, you whiff 5B and are at a small disadvantage. - They can always avoid blocking 46A by neutral teching in reaction to it. - If they have no reversal, you can wait and react to their tech with 46A and they have to block it, unless they quick tech. Most other oki options from 2DB can be punished if they wake up in a specific way, especially if they have a reversal. (By the way, at midscreen, they can just roll backwards to escape from 2DB 46A. It's really only useful in or near the corner.) Edited October 31, 2013 by Bill307
evid3nts Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) Pretty much yeah. If your combo is short and didn't already use 46B, then 2DC immediate 46B is the way to go. If they don't emergency tech, you can react to it and 6C into a nice 2.7k to 3.6k combo. For example: Collapsed: combos: Near midscreen to their corner: 2A 2B 3C 2DC 46B (blue beat) 6C 6DB 5DC 2DA (delay 46B oki) [3086 +22] Just over midscreen, difficult: 2A 2B 3C 2DC 46B (blue beat) 6C 6DA 2DB (46A oki near corner) [2762 +19] Anywhere: 2A 2B 3C 2DC 46B (blue beat) 6C 6DA 3C 6DC [2884 +20] Anywhere: 2A 2B 3C 2DC 46B (blue beat) 6C 6DA 2DA 5DC 28C [3604 +25] (I should cross-post these to the combo thread...) However, if you've already hit them with 46B or if the hitstun loss is too high, they can just air tech after being hit by 46B. You could delay the 46B so it doesn't OTG them, but then they can just roll backwards to escape. In this case, you'd might as well end the combo in 3C 2DC 5DA 6DC for corner carry (or 3C 6DC 2DB if you're close enough to the corner already). Also, for some reason, 46B does not OTG Kagura! So in the Kagura mirror, you should again go for the corner carry BnB. Lastly, I did a lot of testing with 2DB 46A/B oki in the corner and here's a "short list" of stuff I found: - If you do 46A immediately, they can roll forward without being picked up. - If you delay 46A slightly, they can't roll forward and you still recover in time to block an emergency tech 6-frame reversal (Noel gun super). - Assuming you delayed 46A slightly, you can option select forward roll, backward roll, quick tech, and do nothing with 5B into a 3.6k combo into 2DA 46B oki. Unfortunately, if they neutral tech, you whiff 5B and are at a small disadvantage. - They can always avoid blocking 46A by neutral teching in reaction to it. - If they have no reversal, you can wait and react to their tech with 46A and they have to block it, unless they quick tech. Most other oki options from 2DB can be punished if they wake up in a specific way, especially if they have a reversal. (By the way, at midscreen, they can just roll backwards to escape from 2DB 46A. It's really only useful in or near the corner.) Nice write up! All of what I posted was with an immediate B-orb or A-orb for Oki. When I tested 2DB, immediate A-orb Oki in corner it caught forward rolls, back rolls, and late techs. I'm gonna test again after I grind out my bnbs. I been practicing all of those juicy corner combos,mixup after Oki, and my neutral game The Bnb I use for midscreen Oki to reset pressure is: "2A,2B,3C,2DC,A-orb",5B,3C,2DC,B-orb and "__________" 5BB,5C,6DC,2DB,A-orb for corner carry and Oki Edited October 31, 2013 by evid3nts More info
Bill307 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 (edited) So, I discovered 2 interesting things about 2DC 46B: 1. In some cases, you can do 46B asap and it will NOT OTG! 2. If immediate 46B doesn't OTG, and they roll backwards to escape, you can force them to block on wake-up with dash 2C. Cases where 2DC 46B won't OTG: - BnB vs Kagura - raw 2DC 46B (useful for testing in training mode) - 2DA 46A 5B 3C 2DC 46B - and more? I haven't tested that 2DA combo on every character (just Kagura/Jin/Azrael), so I can't say if it's a universal no-OTG. Edited October 31, 2013 by Bill307
tehxdemixazn Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 So, I discovered 2 interesting things about 2DC 46B: 1. In some cases, you can do 46B asap and it will NOT OTG! 2. If immediate 46B doesn't OTG, and they roll backwards to escape, you can force them to block on wake-up with dash 2C. Cases where 2DC 46B won't OTG: - BnB vs Kagura - raw 2DC 46B (useful for testing in training mode) - 2DA 46A 5B 3C 2DC 46B - and more? I haven't tested that 2DA combo on every character (just Kagura/Jin/Azrael), so I can't say if it's a universal no-OTG. I'm pretty sure the only time it DOES work is in corner where it bounces them into the wall and ground. Also during OD iirc. Since d2C seems to have a fixed height it forces at the end.
evid3nts Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 So, I discovered 2 interesting things about 2DC 46B: 1. In some cases, you can do 46B asap and it will NOT OTG! 2. If immediate 46B doesn't OTG, and they roll backwards to escape, you can force them to block on wake-up with dash 2C. Cases where 2DC 46B won't OTG: - BnB vs Kagura - raw 2DC 46B (useful for testing in training mode) - 2DA 46A 5B 3C 2DC 46B - and more? I haven't tested that 2DA combo on every character (just Kagura/Jin/Azrael), so I can't say if it's a universal no-OTG. I noticed that as well but even if it doesn't OTG it Re-forces pressure on our opponent. Also we could choose to end the combo with A-orb which puts them in the same position as an OTG B-orb or late tech since it Blue-beats. I suppose that would be matchup specific though? Another note: If they late tech A-orb then back roll it puts them at tip distance of 5C and 2C.
Bill307 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I noticed that as well but even if it doesn't OTG it Re-forces pressure on our opponent. Also we could choose to end the combo with A-orb which puts them in the same position as an OTG B-orb or late tech since it Blue-beats. I suppose that would be matchup specific though? Another note: If they late tech A-orb then back roll it puts them at tip distance of 5C and 2C. TBH, I don't see any benefit to doing 2DC 46A rather than 46B. I haven't tried it in a "non-OTG" combo, but from a 2A BnB, 2DC 46A will also blue beat OTG unless you delay it. And if you do 2DC delay 46A/B, they can just roll backwards and jump away to escape. (Midscreen, of course.) If there's a timing where you can do 2DC 46A, avoid OTGing them, and still be able to force them to block if they roll backwards, it'd be useful... When you say, "it puts them at tip distance of 5C and 2C", are you talking about 2DC 46A or 2DB 46A? And in either case, it doesn't matter if they're at that distance if they can just jump away before you can touch them. Whenever I tried 46A at midscreen, I could never stop them from jumping away after rolling back.
evid3nts Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 TBH, I don't see any benefit to doing 2DC 46A rather than 46B. I haven't tried it in a "non-OTG" combo, but from a 2A BnB, 2DC 46A will also blue beat OTG unless you delay it. And if you do 2DC delay 46A/B, they can just roll backwards and jump away to escape. (Midscreen, of course.) If there's a timing where you can do 2DC 46A, avoid OTGing them, and still be able to force them to block if they roll backwards, it'd be useful... When you say, "it puts them at tip distance of 5C and 2C", are you talking about 2DC 46A or 2DB 46A? And in either case, it doesn't matter if they're at that distance if they can just jump away before you can touch them. Whenever I tried 46A at midscreen, I could never stop them from jumping away after rolling back. I usually start my combos with 5B(low starter) 2A hits mid so they can block that standing. If my starter is 2A I only go for DD,6DC,or Flash Kick finish in combos mid screen. 2DC,A-orb causes the OTG and blue beats on certain characters: Kagura and Platinum so far. Need to test on the rest of the cast If they don't tech you can continue the blue beat combo, If they air tech they must barrier, and if they late tech(hit ground) back roll they are at tip range of 5C and 2C. You can charge B-orb during both moves to Re-force pressure. This same thing applies to 2DC,B-orb OTG blue beat combo as well They can late tech(hit ground) forward roll but that puts them in 6B range back into pressure All applies to midscreen only Note: 2DB is soft knockdown that's why they can tech the A-orb and get out of the corner if they late tech. Note: You will always get the OTG if you don't delay the Orb. This allows you to react to whatever they do.
FatalCounter Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I don't know why you are sacrifying some damage for a 50/50 mixup, instead of big damage, corner carry and another A orb or B orb oki close to the corner? Well, it is good but seems escapable. What I am doing is 5BB > 3C > 2DC > A orb > 5BB > 5C > 6DC > 2DB (holding back) and summon an orb as soon as I land.
Bill307 Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 I usually start my combos with 5B(low starter) 2A hits mid so they can block that standing. If my starter is 2A I only go for DD,6DC,or Flash Kick finish in combos mid screen. Eh? Why wouldn't you use 2DC 46B after a 2A starter? If they don't tech, you get a 3k blue beat combo and possibly corner oki. 2DC,A-orb causes the OTG and blue beats on certain characters: Kagura and Platinum so far. Need to test on the rest of the cast If they don't tech you can continue the blue beat combo, If they air tech they must barrier, and if they late tech(hit ground) back roll they are at tip range of 5C and 2C. You can charge B-orb during both moves to Re-force pressure. This same thing applies to 2DC,B-orb OTG blue beat combo as well If they air tech an orb OTG, what exactly do you do to make them barrier if they back air tech (keeping in mind they might go forwards or neutral, or not air tech at all)? Seems like Hazama in particular could just back air tech, double jump, and chain out.
evid3nts Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 It typically acts as a reset Also yeah I use that same combo when I know it will give me a full corner carry. I noticed there are a few instances when it won't if your spacing is off. I think once people get used to Kagura they will opt to late tech to escape our Orb Oki. Smart players will more than likely late tech. Also I thought every time we do Orb Oki we are forcing a 50/50 and pressure? We both make good points and a lot of sense plus it only applies to characters that have funny hitboxes like Kagura. B-orb will go right over Kagura if he late techs but if you do A-orb you force the 50/50. On everyone else you could just do the delayed B-orb or A-orb Oki like you said in an earlier post The optimal gamplan for Kagura is always push to corner though so I see why you want to do it.
evid3nts Posted October 31, 2013 Posted October 31, 2013 lol sorry I was testing and writing at the same time so post got out of order lol
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