[CP1.1] Kagura Mutsuki - Gameplay Discussion (Discuss Gameplay/Videos/Combos/etc.)

[evid3nts]

I been testing out blockstring routes other than the known A-orb ender and there is none :'(

6DC,2DB,5DA can be thrown out of during 5DA and will clash with Dp's. I have only tested on Ragna but it seems he can clash the first hit of ID and then punish Kagura with a full combo.

In any case spam that blockstring until people pick up on it. B-)

[stickystaines]

I love 6DC but i hate it as well. There is no way to confirm if 6DC CH's and be able to not get punished. Not even an unsafe frame trap to try and stop the initial punish. Well i only tested with ragna honestly, so some characters my have a hard time in punishing max range 6DC 2DA (confirm block) 4D

[evid3nts]

Probably a dumb question but is A orb better than b orb oki?

Some combos end in 2DB > A orb, while others end in 2DC or 2C > B orb. Which orb is better for okizeme? Can you get the same setups from A orb?

1. You want to delay the orb somewhat when going for an Oki set-up.

2. B-orb grants more block stun and can beat out some Dp's if timed correctly

3. A-orb grants less block stun but the recovery on it is a lot faster

I think you can use "some"of the same setups with A-orb but more block stun is always better when going for a mixup

[Bill307]

Probably a dumb question but is A orb better than b orb oki?

Some combos end in 2DB > A orb, while others end in 2DC or 2C > B orb. Which orb is better for okizeme? Can you get the same setups from A orb?

There are a lot of details about what beats what, especially with corner 2DB 46A/B and varying delays of the orbs. Sometimes, like after 2DA, you need almost perfect orb timing to cover almost all wake-up options.

IMO, the "best coverage" orb oki options are:

- 2A ... 2DC immediate 46B. OTGs if they don't emergency tech (except vs Kagura), leading to 3k damage and possibly corner carry. Char-specific delay of 46B will make it not OTG, but at midscreen they can always roll backwards to escape.

- Midscreen 2DB optional orb. They can always escape orbs at midscreen by rolling backwards.

- Corner 2DB slight delay 46A. Catches both rolls and quick techs.

- (vs "small" chars) Midscreen 2DA short delay 46B. Timed perfectly (just enough delay to not OTG), this orb covers EVERY wake-up option! (I just realized this and I'm going to start looking at ending more midscreen combos in 2DA. )

- (vs "large" chars) Midscreen 2DA delay 46A 2C. Well-timed (a little later than what will OTG), this catches back roll and quick tech and is meaty vs neutral tech and forward roll. The 2C is unsafe if they late neutral tech, though.

- Corner 2DA delay 46B. Timed perfectly (wait for Kagura to step back), this covers every wake-up option EXCEPT quick tech reversal, which punishes it. You can replace 46B with 46A to bait quick tech reversal.

Note: LordSpectreX posted the list of "large" characters earlier. These characters can be OTG'd by orbs later than the "small" ones, which actually makes it harder to do oki on them.

[LoVeBirD-]

1. You want to delay the orb somewhat when going for an Oki set-up.

2. B-orb grants more block stun and can beat out some Dp's if timed correctly

3. A-orb grants less block stun but the recovery on it is a lot faster

I think you can use "some"of the same setups with A-orb but more block stun is always better when going for a mixup

Thanks for the quick reply.

Yea, I've noticed some players not teching or just taking the damage. So you're saying delay orb beats that...Cool. So I wanna delay b orb? or A orb too?

Edit: I posted this as soon as bill made his post. Thanks for that! I'm going to look into all of those and see what happens in battle

Edited November 4, 2013 by LoVeBirD-

[Bill307]

Yea, I've noticed some players not teching or just taking the damage. So you're saying delay orb beats that...Cool. So I wanna delay b orb? or A orb too?

Yeah basically, you never want the orb to blue beat OTG them unless it's after a 2A ... 2DC combo, where you can convert the 46B OTG into good damage and corner carry.

[Bill307]

I think I need to correct myself. (Can't remember if I posted this already...) At midscreen, if you do 2DC 46B oki against a character who is not "large" (i.e. not Ragna, Taokaka, Hakumen, Tager, Arakune or Rachel) and you delay the orb just enough so that it doesn't OTG, they can of course roll backwards to escape the orb. However, if you dash forward 2C, you can force them to block after their roll.

I originally thought they escaped for free in this situation, i.e. you couldn't stop them from jumping away. Turns out only "large" characters pose this problem. In fact, after 2DC, if you do ANY orb that doesn't OTG a "large" character", then you cannot stop them from rolling backwards and jumping away.

[Justice7541]

So what are people doing against zoning? I just got shut down hard by a good Nishiki the other day. Orb isn't much use considering how easy it is to avoid and Kagura doesn't punish jumps very easily.

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[LordSpectreX]

I think I need to correct myself. (Can't remember if I posted this already...) At midscreen, if you do 2DC 46B oki against a character who is not "large" (i.e. not Ragna, Taokaka, Hakumen, Tager, Arakune or Rachel) and you delay the orb just enough so that it doesn't OTG, they can of course roll backwards to escape the orb. However, if you dash forward 2C, you can force them to block after their roll.

I originally thought they escaped for free in this situation, i.e. you couldn't stop them from jumping away. Turns out only "large" characters pose this problem. In fact, after 2DC, if you do ANY orb that doesn't OTG a "large" character", then you cannot stop them from rolling backwards and jumping away.

No offense, but your wording is a bit messed up. You say you originally thought they escaped for free and that it is actually only a problem for large character, but then go on to say that after 2DC OTG, any character can roll backwards and escape. Do you mind expanding?

What I have analysed is thus;

After 2DC Oki

Vs Normal Cast

If you do instant B Orb or delayed B orb, it doesn't really matter. If they don't emergency tech, they will get blue beated.

Vs Large Irregular Cast

If you do instant B Orb, they must emergency tech or get blue beated. If you do delayed B orb, they musst delay their tech and roll back or be forced to block B orb mixup.

Is that correct?

So what are people doing against zoning? I just got shut down hard by a good Nishiki the other day. Orb isn't much use considering how easy it is to avoid and Kagura doesn't punish jumps very easily.

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It's hard. Hazama poses the same problem, he can just chain at you all day and you can't really get to him. TBH, just wait for him to make a mistake or space incorrectly, then make sure you get them to the ground and start pressuring hard. 6C, 6DC, j.A, j.C and airthrow are good ways to deal with gaps in zoning.

Edited November 4, 2013 by LordSpectreX

[evid3nts]

I think what he is saying is that the information he posted earlier was inaccurate because he thought the opponent could get out of 2DC, B-orb Oki for free by rolling backwards. After he tested again he noticed that if you delay the orb so that it won't OTG and they backroll if you run up 2DC it forces them to have to have to block. Therefore it's no escaping the orb and you can continue pressure.

I posted something like this in earlier post but it was kinda wordy so it probably was overlooked.

You can also walk up 5C since it moves you forward a bit if you don't want to do the dash 2C

Edited November 4, 2013 by evid3nts

[Bill307]

No offense, but your wording is a bit messed up. You say you originally thought they escaped for free and that it is actually only a problem for large character, but then go on to say that after 2DC OTG, any character can roll backwards and escape. Do you mind expanding?

I probably worded that whole post a little weird. <_<

After 2A 2B 3C 2DC oki, this is what I've found:

Vs Normal Cast

Instant B orb will blue-beat OTG them if they don't emergency tech.

Slight delay B orb will not blue-beat OTG them. It will OTG them only if they roll forwards or quick tech.

If they roll backwards immediately, slight delay B orb dash 2C will force them to block after rolling.

Vs Large Irregular Cast

Instant B orb and slight delay B orb will blue-beat OTG them if they don't emergency tech.

If you delay A orb OR B orb enough that it doesn't blue-beat OTG them, then they can roll backwards immediately and jump away for free.

(Note: when I say "roll immediately" I mean don't emergency tech and then try to roll asap. This is what the training dummy does when set to the appropriate options.)

Edit: fixed slight delay B vs normal cast.

Edit 2: distinguished between blue-beat OTG and new combo OTG.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Bill307

[Bill307]

Just tested this: on block, 5DA RC 66 6B is a frame trap. (And 6B is actually one of Kagura's best normal starters, proration-wise.) If they're expecting this then they can (rather easily) react to only the normal dash cancel and avoid mashing if you RC, but in the heat of the moment it should catch some people panic mashing.

[drzero7]

Throw, 4[]6B, 6C, 6D~B, 2D~A~, 5D~C~, 2[]8C (4030 DM, 28% HG)

WTF, You serious that this char can do a 4K combo off of a THROW with no meter or corner?!

test it out at the lab... WOAH...

[DC]

He has a really shitty throw range to make up for that.

[TAI-X]

A search of this thread didn't turn up any discussion of Kagura's Overdrive. Has anyone really tried experimenting with his OD combos yet? There's a lot of potential there: it seems he can link three drive attacks instead of just two, including attacks you normally can't link from like his 6DC. Going straight from the 6DC dash stab to his 2DC 5DC [2]8C bread & butter combo is very satisfying.

[evid3nts]

A search of this thread didn't turn up any discussion of Kagura's Overdrive. Has anyone really tried experimenting with his OD combos yet? There's a lot of potential there: it seems he can link three drive attacks instead of just two, including attacks you normally can't link from like his 6DC. Going straight from the 6DC dash stab to his 2DC 5DC [2]8C bread & butter combo is very satisfying.

It's a few OD combos listed in the earlier post. Most of them were from a 5DB starter and the rest you can find in the combo videos. Kagura really doesn't need them IMHO. Unless you just want to be flashy or score a little extra damage for the kill I suppose. Unfortunately if your opponent was sitting on there burst which wouldn't be smart against Kagura anyway. He already gets so much juicy damage without it B-) and almost if not all of his combos can be ended in an Oki setup. I suppose we all should begin to compile a few though for the guaranteed kill in case of a magic pixel

[TAI-X]

Then I'm guessing the best reason you'd use his OD is for the powered-up [4]1236C. It's a reliable counter/reversal but kind of a weak distortion without the OD.

Edited November 5, 2013 by TAI-X

[Bill307]

It'd be nice if Kagura had a move to bait throws.

I don't think he does, unless you count 2DA (after the horrendous start-up when not cancelled from another drive). But, I did notice that 2C moves his throwable box back during the middle of the move's startup. So that kind of works, unless they throw later than expected and catch him coming forward... :/

[Yannick]

Outside of his weaknesses and trouble spots, does Kagura have any matchups (or, rather, types of matchups) at which he excels? Seems like for the glaring weaknesses and painfully annoying matchups, his strengths should reveal a type of match at which he is in a better position to play how he pleases and I'm wondering if anybody has any opinions on those.

[evid3nts]

It'd be nice if Kagura had a move to bait throws.

I don't think he does, unless you count 2DA (after the horrendous start-up when not cancelled from another drive). But, I did notice that 2C moves his throwable box back during the middle of the move's startup. So that kind of works, unless they throw later than expected and catch him coming forward... :/

Yeah those are the two options I use. 2C can be kinda gimmicky but it works from time to time. 2DA works more often then it should since people dont like pressings buttons against Kagura. It would have been nice if 5DA could bait throws but then he would really be OP

[LordSpectreX]

Outside of his weaknesses and trouble spots, does Kagura have any matchups (or, rather, types of matchups) at which he excels? Seems like for the glaring weaknesses and painfully annoying matchups, his strengths should reveal a type of match at which he is in a better position to play how he pleases and I'm wondering if anybody has any opinions on those.

It hard to say. The thing is is that Kagura is based around reads and momentum. His matchups honestly just depend on how good the Kagura player is and how good the opponent.

In terms of matchups where he has an easier time, I'd say Makoto, Platinum (unless RNG Cat Hammer xN), Bullet, Carl(?), Tsubaki, Tager, Noel(?), Terumi(?). But like these characters are generally low tier. I wouldn't say he's a very matchup heavy character at all, except vs people that just utterly zone him. Guys like Hazama.

[-Seo]

Then I'm guessing the best reason you'd use his OD is for the powered-up [4]1236C. It's a reliable counter/reversal but kind of a weak distortion without the OD.

Even in OD, the minimum damage scaling on [4]1236C is weaker than D28D

[stickystaines]

The amount of times someone has barrier'd my flash kick in the air only to get hit by the last hit is amazing. I love it.

I have a lot of trouble approaching Mu. I can get round her zoning to some degree with a bit of effort, but when it comes to actually approaching her because i've got round steins, 5C and j.2C blow me up usually. Don't really know how to go about punishing 'em. I think 2C might work, but if she dashes up and 5C's you for CH then it's ggs.

[LordSpectreX]

The amount of times someone has barrier'd my flash kick in the air only to get hit by the last hit is amazing. I love it.

I have a lot of trouble approaching Mu. I can get round her zoning to some degree with a bit of effort, but when it comes to actually approaching her because i've got round steins, 5C and j.2C blow me up usually. Don't really know how to go about punishing 'em. I think 2C might work, but if she dashes up and 5C's you for CH then it's ggs.

If you're offline, slap the stick from his hands for playing Mu, if you're online, you have a power button on your PS3 for a reason.

Seriously though, since the recovery on her 5C and j.2C is fairly long, I've had quite a lot of success by baiting them out and punishing it with 6DC CH. 6DC is pretty quick and you'll get a lot of dmg from it.

[Bill307]

The amount of times someone has barrier'd my flash kick in the air only to get hit by the last hit is amazing. I love it.

My friend actually got crossed up between the 1st and 2nd hits of my flashkick, lol. I tested this and it really can happen!