[CP] Match Finder/GG Thread

[mAc Chaos]

where dat essay TD

[TD]

Lol. Ok, let me throw my brain pasta in here, just give me a little time.

[someonewhodied]

suddenly

 

-deleted-

Kappa

[Nemesis]

im starting to see a few names getting active again lol... ppl be preping for extend now i guess

too bad that doesnt mean a mass move to the lobby

[TD]

Crossfire, I said that you could analyze Nemesis' gameplay, if you kept it civil.

You pretty much did the opposite lmao: "you actually are garbage. I wish you would stop sucking your own dick on netplay with the waaccccck as fuck setups. n shit. this isn't me directing it towards the community? towards you? because you do the same thing? to other people?????"

So for that you get an infraction.

If you want to see a reasonable discussion, look at me and Errol: https://twitter.com/Errol1001/status/578662307644993537

I was also wondering what TD had to say about the above.

Alright, so just so everyone is on the same page, I will be referring to hakumen playing "cowardly" - I have a pretty clear indication on how that would be, even though I haven't seen the matches (by the way, I can give a more accurate process if I actually did see the matches). I will also assume Errol was simply playing rachel. If that is not true then I will stand corrected.

Now. I believe that hakumen can get away with playing a run-away play style, for several reasons. I would even say it's not much different than playing a passive, defensive style with him, which at one point was the intent with his design.

As everyone knows by now, hakumen passively gains meter for doing nothing, whether he is standing or jumping. If nothing is happening on the screen, it's safe to assume that he has the advantage and you have to strike him while he is weaker. However, he is not going to make that easy, because he has many tools to deal with most situations in this game.

In regards to fighting rachel, as unorothdox as it may be to see a haku running away and let her set up, there are some merits here. First, his sword deals with all of her projectile zoning, so if he can cut a lobelia or pumpkin on reaction, he would be fine. His normals are powerful enough to one-shot George, particularly 5c, and with the meter gained from running, he has a myriad of options at his disposal to deal with many situations afterward, assuming the rachel decides to attempt a punish for killing her pet.

His normals also outranges hers both on the ground and in the air. He can air jc her out of the air very reliably. His 4c cuts any attempts at midrange zoning. 3c in midrange deals with her 236a, arguably her best poke. He has good anti airs in counters, 5a, sometimes 5b and 5c, and 6a. Rachel will not be winning by simply chasing him down like a hungry cat, she definitely needs a plan. To add insult to injury, he can counter her normals on approach quite easily, because her hurtboxes are naturally very close to hitboxes during normals use.

So, rachel can't just stay back and zone exactly, but she can't let him sit around and do nothing. She can't just rush him down either, her approaches are not varied enough like say, litchi, and her moves aren't as ranged either. Since her defense sucks, she can't just "not care", so a lot of pressure is put on rachel to make the right reads and get in or keep him away safely.

But how, you ask? It sounds like he beats everything she has.

Well, he does. But rachel does have ways of dealing with this behemoth.

First, the pumpkin. Once this little ball is out, it can be controlled on a whim so long as she isn't hit or is blocking. She can use it now, later and anytime in between. Why is this important? Well, haku needs to cut a projectile during the active frames of his attacks. Pumpkins are technically ghosts without wind, he cannot do anything to them while they are dormant, so even if he "cuts" one near him, it will stay there. Rachel is free to wind it down and do whatever from there, and haku is possibly disadvantaged now. This is a HUGE reason why he cannot consistently do this alone, because pumpkin can shift momentum so fast, and is easily controlled.

He needs to be on point with cutting lobelias and lumpkins. Yeah, it's not that easy. Even if it makes the matchup easier for him, messing up his timing once again puts him in the shit hole. She is free to rush him or set up some more, giving him more to deal with in the neutral.

Sword iris is harder to cut. He needs to literally predict this. He can counter it, though it's not as strong. A random lobelia can turn into a momentum stopper for him if he runs at the wrong moment, as he cannot cut behind him, and countering stops his backward movement.

I general, against a good rachel, counters are plain risky. Enough yomi or knowledge of the player will give Haku habits away. She has enough variety in mixup to catch him slipping (more like, recovery makes it hard not to punish lol). They don't offer much, except s knockdown, which I guess is good, but since rolls are a thing in this game, and rachel can wind tech, it is still difficult to pin her even after a counter, meaning he has to risk offense or do damage with 4 stars.

Get hit enough times and hakumen can very well find himself in the cat position, because of the timer. Rachel is probably the best time scammer in the entire game because of how long she can stay in the air. He can stop her in the ascent with a grab, and it's very profitable, but it's a grab, so not likely especially is she expects it. And he has to be close to the initial jump in the first place. This, along with pumpkin, are the two big reasons why this method is inconsistent.

The whole running away as hakumen would vary based in the matchup. One must ask themselves if hakumen can afford to do this, and if he can get enough damage in doing so. He definitely will not be running vs someone with high physical range (litchi again, amane) as he cannot cut their attacks so easily. Nu is a good special zoner as though her moves can be cut, her swords deal with all his movement in an rps fashion.

It's a matchup specific thing, but in general, it's a feasable strategy that is not done enough. Strategy in the face of cookie-cutter tactics are excellent, as long as the player running knows how to adapt and play the matchup. So my verdict is that it definitely is useful every once in awhile, at least vs rachel, and especially when he needs to sit back and feed (evolve reference - if you get this, it's actually a great way to describe haku in general, he is the monster.)

DISCLAIMER: did not spell check!

[Nemesis]

congrats to not deleting the post this time

[TD]

I did it on a different app this time, no random refreshes.

Sometime you have to trip over the rock to get past it.

[Errol]

Here are my comments:

 

I played mac in a set of games the other week. I haven't played BB in like 5 months and have been playing UNI for the past  couple of months. So we Played, and I played 1 game with Rachel and just said, nah, nahhhhhhhhh, and played a lot of gives no fucks tsubaki. (Because I really didn't.. I don't play this character seriously in CP).

 

I played some matches of Rachel again towards the end,  after somewhat ridding myself of UNI habits. (it's hilarious how short throw range is in BB though, really.)

 

TBH, I don't care how people play, I have no issues with someone running away in a match. I talked about him playing 'cowardly' out of humor. Doesn't match his usual play style and he likes to play gold and stuff.

 

So you posted a lot of good matchup info about haku vs Rachel.  Which is good stuff.  The stuff being argued about was not really anything to do with matchup information, matchup knowledge, or anything to do with neutral.

 

It was mostly about the effects of mistakes on gameplay. With me being on the side of 'Mistake are much more punishing on Rachel than just about any other character', and 'the primary reason I lose is not because of gameplan or neutral, but because of technical failures in execution', and Mac being on the side of 'Hakumen suffers from mistakes too' 'Rachel also benefits from lag' 'Everyone makes mistakes so mistakes aren't the determining factor'.

 

Among other things.

 

But the info you posted is vastly more useful, and I don't care to discuss what I discussed with Mac any further to be frank.

[Mucky]

'Rachel also benefits from lag'

 

Stop putting words in my mouth. For fuck's sake.

[mAc Chaos]

Straw man'd

 

Basically, you are assuming perfect play from Rachel, but not the other player. Rachel runs her game plan perfectly, makes no mistakes. But running that game plan can't happen "perfectly" because it still involves judgment and choices. What kind of mixups to do, what resources you have on hand (george, pumpkin, how much wind, etc). Meanwhile, for the other player, you are assuming they're still making mistakes, even though if we assumed perfect play from them too you just end up at a stalemate. What if Hakumen could just play neutral perfectly or counter everything. Obviously saying, "Well, I lost because I didn't play right" is such a trivial statement that it's meaningless for why you really lost.

 

The game ultimately comes down to the exchange between the two players, not just "oh I didn't execute my perfect plan that would make me win every time no matter what, and that's why I lost."

 

Also yeah I loved the matchup info TD.

[Errol]

Stop putting words in my mouth. For fuck's sake.

How is 'Rachel also benefits from lag' any more than paraphrasing 'it's also a fact that lag goes both ways when your gapless blockstrings contain 50/50 mixups. just sayin'

 

 

Straw man'd

 

Basically, you are assuming perfect play from Rachel, but not the other player. Rachel runs her game plan perfectly, makes no mistakes. But running that game plan can't happen "perfectly" because it still involves judgment and choices. What kind of mixups to do, what resources you have on hand (george, pumpkin, how much wind, etc). Meanwhile, for the other player, you are assuming they're still making mistakes, even though if we assumed perfect play from them too you just end up at a stalemate. What if Hakumen could just play neutral perfectly or counter everything. Obviously saying, "Well, I lost because I didn't play right" is such a trivial statement that it's meaningless for why you really lost.

 

The game ultimately comes down to the exchange between the two players, not just "oh I didn't execute my perfect plan that would make me win every time no matter what, and that's why I lost."

 

Also yeah I loved the matchup info TD.

 

Actually, the part that I am talking about involves no judgment and no choices. it's strictly technical execution. You conflated basic technical execution of combos and oki, with things that require judgment and choices.  I assume no mistakes from the other player. 

 

Are you really saying people aren't allowed to identify their reason for losing as being things like dropping combos?

[Nemesis]

ggs henjins room, was a good smash

[mAc Chaos]

Actually, the part that I am talking about involves no judgment and no choices. it's strictly technical execution. You conflated basic technical execution of combos and oki, with things that require judgment and choices.  I assume no mistakes from the other player. 

 

Are you really saying people aren't allowed to identify their reason for losing as being things like dropping combos?

1) You were talking about running her game plan. That involves the corner mixup. If it's just getting you into the corner and then that's it, then it's not really "I would have won if it I didn't mess up." You're assuming the mixup being successful as part of it.

 

2) Well, I don't know. We're talking about every set across every game. That's a lot of games lost because of combo drops. How many combos is it possible to drop. My whole point was, you're wrong, it's not just combo drops. You are selling yourself short by picking such a trivial thing to base your analysis on, so you will give up the chance to improve and pick out the real mistakes. It's like if I just said, "well, any match I lost was because I didn't do Hakumen's optimal combos" instead of eating a mixup or someone's neutral game.

[Mucky]

You know what? Fuck it. This shit has gone on for three nights already, and I have had enough. You are obviously lying through your DIRTY TEETH when you say you don't want to talk about this, because you keep taking these cheap-ass potshots on twitter, and now here. So here we go. WE FUCK NOW.

 

This whole thing started from one flippant comment I made on twitter. "fuck gapless blockstrings." Yet the first thing out of your mouth is "LOL TRY INSTANT BLOCKING." Then you immediately contradict yourself in your conversation with mac, where you say Rachel's blockstrings are meant to be gapless. In other words, trying to instant block Rachel is pointless, and so is your fucking rebuttal. Which brings us back to where we started.

 

Next day, you say TD is irrelevant. That's a fucking laugh. Yes, he plays differently from you. Guess what? He also WINS MORE GAMES THAN YOU. I've played hell of a lot more games with his Rachel than I have with yours. I can count on one hand how many times I've landed a 720 on him across all the games I have ever played with him. You, I land a 720 at least ONCE A MATCH. I play like an idiot, know fuck all for CP Tager combos, and I've still won at least half of the games I've played with your Rachel.

 

Would you say that's a coincidence? I would say that not only does TD play smarter than you, he also has better execution than you. According to your logic, he has no reason NOT to do what you try to do. And yet he doesn't. Why do you think that is? Have you ever stopped to think that you don't understand your character as well as you think you do? Or that the character you play is versatile enough to be played in more than one way at a high level?

 

Go on. Try telling TD that he's playing Rachel wrong. Let's see how far you get with that.

 

Are you really saying people aren't allowed to identify their reason for losing as being things like dropping combos?

 

YOU'RE NOT LOSING BECAUSE OF DROPPED COMBOS! What, do you drop EVERY fucking combo, in EVERY fucking match? Because if your problem really were just dropping combos, I highly doubt it would've gone on for THIS LONG. It's the first thing any player irons out in their gameplay.

 

And then you go back and forth different answers. Oh, I don't really care, tsubaki is bad, rachel is too hard, blah blah blah. WELL GOSH, I DON'T SEE ANYTHING ABOUT POOR EXECUTION THERE! DO YOU?

 

You take "perfect" to be a completely axiomatic term, throwing it around without elaboration or justification. You throw it around like a fucking 10 year old who just learned his first cuss word. You want your arguments to have substance? Then try putting some thought into what the word actually means, and how we're supposed to relate to it as fighting game players. As HUMANS. Imperfect human players for which this romantic ideal of perfect you have floating around in your head is NOT POSSIBLE. Why are we supposed to care about this?

 

You keep talking about how Rachel is unstoppable with a perfect offense. Why is it so hard for you to imagine an opponent with a perfect defense? What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object? You even concede this point in your own post, yet you continue to argue it ANYWAY.

 

Is this Animal Farm or something? Is your character's perfect more perfect than another's? Is that what you're trying to argue?

 

That's not even the real issue here. The real issue is this: Every game, every set, every fucking time I see you posting in this thread, you're regurgitating this shit time and again. And every time you do that, it comes off as an attempt to protect your precious ego. Well FUCK YOUR EGO, man.

 

Remember the things Star-Demon would say? "I shouldn't be getting by this, or that." "I can't believe I dropped that combo." "I'm so bad, woe is me." You might remember the outbursts he had, and maybe even chuckle at the thought. Or maybe you don't, it's been so long that the exact times are too hazy to pinpoint.

 

But try to think about what he was really doing back then. He was crying out for attention, telling that sorry story to himself, over and over. He did it because deep down, he wanted to convince himself it didn't matter to him so he could feel better. There's plenty of other people who do the same thing. Don't think for a second that you are any different from him, as you are now.

 

I'm not gonna sit here and coddle your feelings. I'm not gonna sit here and tell you the things you want to hear. You can resent me all you like after reading this. I don't give a fuck. I am absolutely done giving a fuck.

[mAc Chaos]

wow christ

 

my post got buried

[Henjin]

Wait you guys are raging at each other this whole time?

[mAc Chaos]

Nah, we were talking about a set we played and waiting for TD to repost the essays he lost.

[Errol]

You know what? Fuck it. This shit has gone on for three nights already, and I have had enough. You are obviously lying through your DIRTY TEETH when you say you don't want to talk about this, because you keep taking these cheap-ass potshots on twitter, and now here. So here we go. WE FUCK NOW.

 

This whole thing started from one flippant comment I made on twitter. "fuck gapless blockstrings." Yet the first thing out of your mouth is "LOL TRY INSTANT BLOCKING." Then you immediately contradict yourself in your conversation with mac, where you say Rachel's blockstrings are meant to be gapless. In other words, trying to instant block Rachel is pointless, and so is your fucking rebuttal. Which brings us back to where we started.

 

Next day, you say TD is irrelevant. That's a fucking laugh. Yes, he plays differently from you. Guess what? He also WINS MORE GAMES THAN YOU. I've played hell of a lot more games with his Rachel than I have with yours. I can count on one hand how many times I've landed a 720 on him across all the games I have ever played with him. You, I land a 720 at least ONCE A MATCH. I play like an idiot, know fuck all for CP Tager combos, and I've still won at least half of the games I've played with your Rachel.

 

Would you say that's a coincidence? I would say that not only does TD play smarter than you, he also has better execution than you. According to your logic, he has no reason NOT to do what you try to do. And yet he doesn't. Why do you think that is? Have you ever stopped to think that you don't understand your character as well as you think you do? Or that the character you play is versatile enough to be played in more than one way at a high level?

 

Go on. Try telling TD that he's playing Rachel wrong. Let's see how far you get with that.

 

 

YOU'RE NOT LOSING BECAUSE OF DROPPED COMBOS! What, do you drop EVERY fucking combo, in EVERY fucking match? Because if your problem really were just dropping combos, I highly doubt it would've gone on for THIS LONG. It's the first thing any player irons out in their gameplay.

 

And then you go back and forth different answers. Oh, I don't really care, tsubaki is bad, rachel is too hard, blah blah blah. WELL GOSH, I DON'T SEE ANYTHING ABOUT POOR EXECUTION THERE! DO YOU?

 

You take "perfect" to be a completely axiomatic term, throwing it around without elaboration or justification. You throw it around like a fucking 10 year old who just learned his first cuss word. You want your arguments to have substance? Then try putting some thought into what the word actually means, and how we're supposed to relate to it as fighting game players. As HUMANS. Imperfect human players for which this romantic ideal of perfect you have floating around in your head is NOT POSSIBLE. Why are we supposed to care about this?

 

You keep talking about how Rachel is unstoppable with a perfect offense. Why is it so hard for you to imagine an opponent with a perfect defense? What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object? You even concede this point in your own post, yet you continue to argue it ANYWAY.

 

Is this Animal Farm or something? Is your character's perfect more perfect than another's? Is that what you're trying to argue?

 

That's not even the real issue here. The real issue is this: Every game, every set, every fucking time I see you posting in this thread, you're regurgitating this shit time and again. And every time you do that, it comes off as an attempt to protect your precious ego. Well FUCK YOUR EGO, man.

 

Remember the things Star-Demon would say? "I shouldn't be getting by this, or that." "I can't believe I dropped that combo." "I'm so bad, woe is me." You might remember the outbursts he had, and maybe even chuckle at the thought. Or maybe you don't, it's been so long that the exact times are too hazy to pinpoint.

 

But try to think about what he was really doing back then. He was crying out for attention, telling that sorry story to himself, over and over. He did it because deep down, he wanted to convince himself it didn't matter to him so he could feel better. There's plenty of other people who do the same thing. Don't think for a second that you are any different from him, as you are now.

 

I'm not gonna sit here and coddle your feelings. I'm not gonna sit here and tell you the things you want to hear. You can resent me all you like after reading this. I don't give a fuck. I am absolutely done giving a fuck.

 

 

TD. It's really irrelevant whether he thinks I'm wrong about execution. I specifically said that because he does play Rachel differently, and he can play Rachel however he wants. I try to model my play after N-O. my opinions on these subjects are almost parroting what I have learned from reading and talking with him on twitter.

 

You got a big chip on your shoulder tho, Glad you got it off.

[Henjin]

Nah, we were talking about a set we played and waiting for TD to repost the essays he lost.

Is it that important?

[mAc Chaos]

Talking about our matches is pretty much what this thread is for.

 

And I don't think Mucky is over the line or anything, he is just using "FUCKING" a lot to emphasize his words instead of calling errol garbage or something. Unless errol thinks otherwise.

[Henjin]

Talking about our matches is pretty much what this thread is for.

And I don't think Mucky is over the line or anything, he is just using "FUCKING" a lot to emphasize his words instead of calling errol garbage or something. Unless errol thinks otherwise.

I would take time to read it... but its too long.

[Myoro]

I leave this thread for a bit and this all happens. (Not that my presence would have changed anything, it's just this is a lot of feuding parties to take in. I hope it works itself out alright. '~')

 

anyway I'm free for awhile tomorrow, anyone wanna take me apart and build me back twice as good sometime then? I can feel my ambition returning and I wanna do something productive with it.

[Nemesis]

I would take time to read it... but its too long.

FUCKING good FUCKING fuck games @ Fucking henjins fucking room for Fucks sake 

[Henjin]

FUCKING good FUCKING fuck games @ Fucking henjins fucking room for Fucks sake

Oh yea ggs nemi was gonna respond., but as you can see... well i got distracted.

[Nemesis]

wow that really worked ? fucking mucky taught me the power of fuck

 

 

 

You got a big chip on your shoulder tho

 

I never truly understood what this meant