[CP] Kagura vs. Hakumen

[MikelAL93]

Discuss the Kagura vs. Hakumen matchup here.

[Bill307]

Did some testing after commentating Omniscythe's matches vs Omnix.

If you use any orb oki while Hakumen has 4+ stars, he can reversal super counter your orb to escape. You can super jump away (and double jump / air dash / drive) to avoid the unblockable hit, but you can't punish him because the recovery is completely invincible. Unfortunate. :/

(Edit: this next part is wrong. I was testing by holding A to tech, which also turns 2D's attack into Enma, which is punishable unlike 2D's normal attack.)

If you use an A orb for oki after 2DB, Hakumen can emergency tech and 2D to counter it. You can block the counter attack and punish with 6B, 3C, or even 2C or 5C. (The frame data says it's -15 but this is clearly wrong. It feels like -19 or -20, just enough for 5C to hit.) You won't get a counter-hit, though.

At midscreen, you can spend 50 meter to do 2C 2DB RC into 4.6k+, but without 50 meter you won't get much of a punish because they're too far for you to do a combo using CT, 5DC, or even 46A 5B. But in the corner, you can punish with 6B into 5.2k meterless. :D

Hakumen 2D won't work against B orb oki because he gets hit by the last 4 hits.

By the way, he can 3C (8 frames) all of your drives on block to punish them, except for 5DA 66 and 2DC (unless he IBs the 2nd hit). This is never a counter-hit, except for 5DA 44.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Bill307

[Sharakonta]

One thing about Haku doing 2D against B Orb, if hang back a moment to see if he is going to do 2D ya he'll get hit but usually since you use that time to apply mixups he'll grab you and ignore the rest of the B orb

[mAc Chaos]

If you use an A orb for oki after 2DB, Hakumen can emergency tech and 2D to counter it. You can block the counter attack and punish with 6B, 3C, or even 2C or 5C. (The frame data says it's -15 but this is clearly wrong. It feels like -19 or -20, just enough for 5C to hit.) You won't get a counter-hit, though.

You can't punish any of his counters on block. If you activate it, it is invincible all the way until he is able to block again (just like Yukikaze). The minus frames just mean he will be at disadvantage and you can start pressuring him, not punishing.

[Bill307]

You can't punish any of his counters on block. If you activate it, it is invincible all the way until he is able to block again (just like Yukikaze). The minus frames just mean he will be at disadvantage and you can start pressuring him, not punishing.

If you're correct, then training mode must be broken, because I had no trouble punishing his 2D after blocking it, not to mention seeing it get hit by 46B immediately after activating.

One thing about Haku doing 2D against B Orb, if hang back a moment to see if he is going to do 2D ya he'll get hit but usually since you use that time to apply mixups he'll grab you and ignore the rest of the B orb

2D is a grab? Whenever I got counter-hit by it (after 46A activated it), I got fatal countered up into the air. Maybe you're thinking of an older version of Hakumen? Or is it a grab up close?

[toanenadiz]

If Hakumen counters something with his 2D (counter), he will start to do 2D (attack). 2D (attack) is a blockable throw. And it is fully invincible like the frame data says so something must have gone wrong in your set-up in training mode.

[mAc Chaos]

If you're correct, then training mode must be broken, because I had no trouble punishing his 2D after blocking it, not to mention seeing it get hit by 46B immediately after activating.

I am the Haku God. Don't doubt me.

You can see it in the frame data, and that's how it has always been in all the other games. Actually, you can see it during multi hit supers too, like Nu's. If the counter was punishable, you would do 2D during it and die. But instead the attacks will whiff through you until you can 2D again.

Edited November 26, 2013 by mAc Chaos

[Bill307]

This is worrying me... does 2D do something different, like a follow-up, if you're mashing 2D? Because I was testing with a dummy mashing 2D.

I'm gonna go into training mode again now and double-check this...

Edit: ... god damnit it changes to Enma when I'm holding A to tech. -_-;;

Edit 2: this explains why Omnisscythe often jumped whenever he did midscreen B orb oki on Hakumen: it makes the 2D attack miss.

Looks like midscreen 2DC B-orb gives you enough time to do a mix-up or even a deep, tight j.B (into possible fuzzy guard) if they block the orb, jumping over their 2D attack otherwise. In the corner, there is also a 2DA B-orb timing that gives you a frame-trap j.B if they block the orb. Nothing is guaranteed after 2DB A-orb, though.

Edit 3: Unfortunately, it looks like Hakumen gets a free star for countering either orb. :/

Edited November 26, 2013 by Bill307

[Justice7541]

Why not just record the dummy to mash 1d? It's 1f counter so he'll just do 2d constantly the instant he recovers from the blocked throw if you're mashing fast enough.

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