[CP] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion v.2 (Discuss Videos/Combos/Questions/etc.)

[zankoku]

He doesn't have a huge amount of links so much as very late gatlings a la Hakumen. It's kind of a double-edged sword on netplay, as on one hand you might have issues getting timing on some of the tighter conversions involving stuff like IAD, but on the other hand Instant Blocking Azrael's pressure strings is a big part of being able to deal with them, which is notably more difficult with delay.

 

His execution for, at the very least, above-average damage is fairly easy, though... 5BB > TCL is pretty much braindead 2.3k, Valiant-based combos just need a decent personal rhythm and often deal upwards of 4k, etc.

[Kinkuli]

Late to the party but w/e!

 

The tier list looks pretty much what i had in my mind. MAYBE i would move ragna down to 5 and move noel up to "remove this char" category. Tager might seem weird but the MU is actually not really that good or bad for azrael. I can see dogura putting it in Tager favor ever so slightly. Or he's just mixing azrael with slayer and tager with potemkin  -

[Vgundam29]

I'm having a prob with 5b-2c-6d-6a-dash-5b-tlc-3d etc. From midscreen. Having a some probs with 6a. Major problems with dash5b.then connecting 3d from TLC I end up on the other I'd of them.

[natearistata]

Perhaps I'm just an ignorant dumbass, but I don't think you can regular dash and combo after 6A?

 

All 6A combos I'm aware of require an instant air dash j.B or j.C.

[Koopa_Klawz]

Perhaps I'm just an ignorant dumbass, but I don't think you can regular dash and combo after 6A?

 

All 6A combos I'm aware of require an instant air dash j.B or j.C.

 

You can but only if you're opponent is high enough in the air or CH but from a certain distance.

 

Also, (@Vgundam) you should try doing 6A > Dash > 5A since that'll connect more consistently then 5B.

[RentalBlackout]

[uW] 5B>2C>6D>6A>Dash>5B>TCL>3D does work but several things can affect it.

It might be because you're not doing 2C>6D>6A fast enough to launch them higher or maybe you're not dashing fast enough. It could also be that you're starting the combo too far away from the opponent, this combo works best if you're starting it right next to them. TCL>3D ender doesn't work on several people no matter how you do it(Tager and I think Arakune, probably more). To make it more consistent for other people, do 5B>2C>6D>6A>Walk forward a little>2B>TCL(no delay)>3D, more damage too.

 

You can also do what Koopa suggested to make it more consistent if you're finding them dropping too low to use 5B.

[Vgundam29]

I have a question. Was watching over bbcp evo grand finals. I seen dogura do a combo and can't figure out how he did it. No marks. Ariel counter hit-5b-land-5b-j.bc-jc.d-land-2a(?)-TLC-2c-3c thinking its the first match 36 sec in. How did he do this combo?

[Verimeloni]

I have a question. Was watching over bbcp evo grand finals. I seen dogura do a combo and can't figure out how he did it. No marks. Ariel counter hit-5b-land-5b-j.bc-jc.d-land-2a(?)-TLC-2c-3c thinking its the first match 36 sec in. How did he do this combo?

2A onwards it's a blue beat pickup combo meaning Galileo could have teched but chose not to/didn't react in time and Dogura was able to capitalize on that by gaining another weakpoint. Dacidbro actually explains it right afterwards.

 

Edit:

Might as well throw my 2 cents in about tiers, I still don't think Azrael is truly S tier. In my opinion, when compared to past top tier characters' nature too many of Azrael's match-ups force (in my opinion) too much hard reads and high-risk medium/high-reward situations. His ground approach options should be better, either by making Gustaf travel fullscreen or giving it some sort of invulnerability against projectiles (lol) or just making its' startup faster, or buffing his forward dash.

 

Btw I've spent way too much time lately just reading Azrael's frame data and his moves' p1 and p2 values so I might put a combo theory thread just analyzing how to squeeze the most of his combos/which starters are ultimately the best damage/heat-wise, if that makes any sense.

[RentalBlackout]

Interestingly, if you compare Azrael to the other generally agreed upon S tier chars(Carl, Litchi, Kokonoe, Rachel), Azrael lacks something they all have, which is setplay. While Azrael makes up for the lack of that by having higher rewards on average and arguably better defense in general(compared to Carl, Kokonoe and Rachel), setups require a different approach to handle.

 

The way to beat setups is to generally just to understand when the setup can be done and what the setup is doing. Once you are more prepared for it, you don't fall for it as much. In a way, you can say that setups are really good gimmicks(hence not making them...gimmicky?) So if you want to beat Carl real easily, you'd want to emphasize more on learning what setups are available to him(problem is he has tons of them, and they're all good), but not totally ignoring how to play against him in other aspects. The more you know about the character, the easier of a time you'll have beating him/her.

This is true for any other character, but it's especially true for characters like that.

However, when it comes to other characters(Azrael included), all you have to do is to simply play more solidly. Tack on a few option selects and well, you can say you're able to beat any Azrael with the same skill level(or lower) as you. Also, player match ups can affect how you play against other players, but I don't think a player's playstyle can affect setups, at least not to the same degree.

 

I'm not sure how much that contributes to how Azrael doesn't feel like an S tier char, but it's an interesting point of view to look at.

[Vgundam29]

OK. I wanna throw my 2 cents in here as well. I'm farely new to he forum and game

But not the genre. I seen the tier list before evo and then after. 2 azreals made it to finals. Now ppl are screaming he is god tier. Dogura is a phenominal player, he outplay gariero so much, he actually won in the loser brackit, but nerves got to him and he dropped the rapid cancel for the win. Dogura on another lvl if he would have played another champ that champ would be s tier (most champs)I also don't agree with this. He is high A tier. His DMG output is the only reason ppl are saying he is s tier. 1 hit confirm leads into at the least 3k without marks. His non dash mixups are equivalent to terumi, for the most part block low, his overheads have huge windup and unique animations. His dashing game creates a guessing game. And like the person above me said option selects pretty much destroy that. His corner carry is godlike. Azreal to me feels more of a reactionary character(neutral game speaking), designed to capitalize on mistakes and lack of reflex. Rather than creating an advantage. And to capitalize on those mistake, you need really high reads and reaction times. His dash game mixups, and I truly think this is why ppl say he is s tier, great guessing games. I think most ppl don't understand option selects to the fullest or can't execute properly or consistent. There are only so many option a real can use with dash at certain distances, I just think dashing can make it hard to react on reflex. Take away a real dash and he would be. B tier. My feelings, again take it with a grain of salt.

Sorry for the wall of text and run on sentence. Doing this from a phone.

[LordSpectreX]

The argument that Azrael is top cause there were two in Top 8 of EVO is ridiculously stupid. I guess Nu-13, Bang and Tager are all high tier? Azrael does not dominate in any region, including Japan. At the latest Mixup Night, Dogura didn't make Top 8, losing to Macci's(sp) Ragna. Western Azrael's do so poorly. Kinkuli and I got joint furthest in EVO, and even that was only Second Round Quarter Finals. We get people like AXIS or The Arm get Top 8 at majors, but then just get blown up by actual top tiers like Kokonoe. 

 

The truth is is that Azrael punishes mistakes and requires the other person to play intelligently to win. What you value in a tier list is ultimately subjective. If you believe Azrael is top because of his damage, fine. But I honestly do not believe that a character with mediocre neutral can be considered S Tier. Azrael gets beaten in neutral by a lot of characters, even characters like Ragna, Noel etc. To a certain extent, it doesn't matter how good your damage is if you can never get a hit. Along with needed a firm understanding of neutral, you also need to know his frame data and options a lot more than most other characters. You need to do stuff like IB, actually block on wakeup (something a lot of American players cannot do), tighten your setplay etc. 

 

I'm honestly considering dropping this character because I'm just so tired of people completely overrating him AND calling him braindead to play. Growler is a complete joke of a tool, backdash can be option selected by most characters, his defensive options in the corner are worse than even Carl and Koko. He has no setplay. His mixup when blocked makes him minus. He's slow. His pressure is full of holes. If I see another person say "his pressure is good, his 5A is +1" and not realise that even 5A>5A has a gap, I'm gonna cry.

 

Sorry for the rant, but I had to let off a bit of steam. 

[BloodWolF]

 

 His ground approach options should be better, either by making Gustaf travel fullscreen or giving it some sort of invulnerability against projectiles (lol) or just making its' startup faster, or buffing his forward dash.

 

You're already eating our swords...what do you want from us!?

[RWA Announcer]

Just out of curiosity, beyond Dogura's personal Azrael matchup chart, what tier list are we talking about here?  The Aecadia Magazine Tier List that was published in May or the more recent one from Tetsuwo that I believe was published on June 30th?  I suppose it doesn't really matter, since both of them have Azzy in S along with Dora's, but I just wanted to get some overall context to this conversation.

[RentalBlackout]

Aside from Dogura's match up list and as you have mentioned Dora's, the other two tier lists that I've seen(LK's tier list and Jiyuna's) put him as S as well. Personally I'll always felt like he was A+, potential to be better than A tiers, yet not quite up there with the S tiers.

 

On paper he certainly seems S tier material, but playing a perfect neutral game to go with that is definitely not a 'braindead' easy task people think it is. Dogura and Tochigin make it look real easy, but that is why I respect them a lot, because they are able to make it look easy.

 

EDIT: Then again S tiers don't have to dominate a game to be an S tier. Most tier lists are really theoretical, and the problem with them is the amount of subjectivity as Spectre has said. A top player's opinion isn't the same as a general opinion, and different players feel/voice differently about match ups than other players would. In SF4(AE 2012), Cammy was widely considered to be top tier but, correct me if I'm wrong, a lot of other characters won more majors.

Alpha Patroklos in SC5 was generally regarded as the best character in the game, but no one could play him well enough to be consistently winning majors.

[Verimeloni]

"Just being Kokonoe's worst MU doesn't mean Azrael is S tier, right guys?"

[RWA Announcer]

Nice to see I'm not alone in thinking he's a step below S Tier, as you've pretty much echoed my exact thoughts on him RentalBlackout.  I feel like this is pretty much EXACTLY like the Rose/Luffy situation in USF4.  Sure, I'll acknowledge that he got some nice buffs in 1.1, despite the majority of them being "Quality Of Life" improvements, and that the majority of his bad matchups, save for the Clovers, Rachel and Litchi, got better due to them all being nerfed, and I know that would move him up the tiers by proxy, but I just don't see how he could magically skyrocket to God Status and be instantly reviled as this crazy, derpy character that should be hated overnight.  I also remember LK and SKD made an "Ease Of Use" Tier List, and while he had Azrael at the Top of the "Easy To Learn" category, and SKD had his as second-easiest to use underneath Noel, but they both had him on the farther end of the "Easy To Win With" column, with all of the 1.0 top tiers in front of him.  I don't feel like I'm in a position to dispute all of these top player opinions if some of them think he really is THAT good, but I'd even put Relius above him, despite Dogura tearing through RYO in that FT10.  Top of A+ feels pretty accurate, but outside of a few damage nerfs or frame data reductions, I'm kinda paranoid about him getting destroyed in Version 2.0 because of people complaining when he's arguably the most "fair" top tier in the entire history of the BlazBlue series.

 

As for your specific points about AE 2012, tournament results never really lined up with that version's tier list due to guys like EG Justin Wong, EG Ricky Ortiz, MCZ Daigo Umehara and LU Alex Valle pushing mid-tier characters like Rufus and Ryu WELL beyond their natural means, so much so that they were the two most successful tournament characters in that version, along with top players like Tokido, Infiltration and Fuudo being so dominant with Akuma and Fei.  They were universally agreed upon to be the S Tier Trio, but the order amongst them was always disputed for different reasons.  She made Top 8s thanks to K-Brad and Dakou, but the only thing she ever won in recent memory was K-Brad winning SCR earlier this year.  As for Alpha Pat in SCV, Whoahhzz had a pretty dominant streak with him, but he was pretty much the only guy using that character, since he was Just Frame City, while Mitsurugi, Viola and Natsu had ALOT more players, despite being universally being agreed to be below him.

[Vgundam29]

Tier lists are not really speculative opinions (although all of them end up being this). If a game is truly balanced there would be no tier lists. But we are human and its not.

Tier are defined by in no order

1 frame data

2 animations

3 kit

Skill has nothing to do with a fighters tier (although this is what happens).

A fighter that's higher tier has convincing, clear, definitive , advantages that allows them to abuse tiers below them.

Besides azreals dash I honestly do not see, how or what he has to abuse the rest of the cast...........

Previous ppl have stated before me all the obvious reasons.

Frame data sub par

Set play sub par

Animations are slow

Dash can be option selected.

DMG incredibly high

IMO azreal is only as good as, how bad your opponent is(*see IE), and how well you can read opponents, and capitalize. (IE. How many mistakes are made). So I can see why people like dogara say he is S tier because he is rather superior in his play vs other top players, And can instantly reads mistakes.

[Warhound]

You're already eating our swords...what do you want from us!?

 

Well now I'm not satisfied anymore. I want to eat swords WHILE moving. 

 

Anyhow, the Az hate is getting on my nerves as well. And it mostly comes from people being too stupid or too lazy to bother with researching on how to beat him. There was a topic on Gamefaqs about how to beat Az as a Noel, and while the topic was particularly filled with contempt for Azrael I just couldn't help but tell the guy: "Dude, you have 4D, that move alone shuts down like everything but our lows which leave us open or on the defense." I've seen someone OD between my 5B and second B.

 

Jesus. 

[LordSpectreX]

5BB having a gap is pretty standard. I do say this quite a lot but no-one outside like 4 people in the UK scene get it. Azrael has a gap in EVERY blockstring except 2A>5A, 2A/5A>TRM, and a Normal into Special. Any sequence of normals that isn't 2A>5A has a gap. 5A>5A, even on normal block, has a gap.

[zankoku]

Yeah, I've personally been punished by characters with 5f 5As who IB'd my first 5B and punished my autopiloting by CHing me with 5A before my second B would connect. Given the quality of his normals overall I'd say having a framegap between each one is fair enough game, though.

[Warhound]

Sorry, made a typo in my last post. The topic I viewed was NOT filled with contempt for Az, which was rare.

 

Anyhow,

 

 

Yeah, I've personally been punished by characters with 5f 5As who IB'd my first 5B and punished my autopiloting by CHing me with 5A before my second B would connect. Given the quality of his normals overall I'd say having a framegap between each one is fair enough game, though.

 

Right, the frame gap is FAIR. It takes a person to be sort of, in-the-know to take advantage of, but it's there. Which worries me about CP2, and how he's going be handled in there. Anything too drastic, and the announcer might as well announce "Mu Wins" as soon as she yells "Action".

[Kinkuli]

Just my 2yens   .

 

Basically, IF you have dogura or tochigin or "enter any japanese/western player with good defense here" level defense paired with good skills at reading your opponent, Azrael is S tier (well i guess you can just say he's S tier but you need some skills to make him truly shine). Good defensive skills and good ol yomi are the main points which i feel separate the men from gods in Azrael's case. Everything azrael has seem to, at least to me, respond to good reads and situational awareness. Sure there are times when you can just go uguguguagagagagaga 5A/5B and score a hit but i feel those situations are mostly due opponent making a mistake. 

 

All in all in the context of BB, Azrael has good tools, fast overhead (somewhat telegraphed), 3 reversal options (dump is dumb but hey it works), VERY good CLOSE RANGE normals, high damage etc. Only thing he kinda misses is good setplay and is somewhat slowish. His TK dump setplay is there but now that people have learned how to deal with it better, it's not that great compared to rachel or koko or whatever. Dump setplay is also kinda hard to maintain since you would need to cut combos short (in weakpoint combos for example) and since it kinda loses to late tech. Well he also kinda misses good oki since fuck BB roll system so you need to make reads on what your opponent wants to do. 

 

So i guess train defense, train yomi, be good at them and you can gorilla like an elder god.   Back to merkava cawcawcawcaw.

 

EDIT: One thing i forgot to mention was that one reason why Kansai players rank Azrael as S is because he can deal with the fuzzy jump BS. Crossups and all :3.

[Verimeloni]

Sourenga threw us a bomb in the news & gameplay discussion thread:

 

"Growler Field has now only projectile-invincibility"

 

If this sticks Azrael doesn't have a reversal anymore, get used to tech & block boys~

[Putin]

rip

[Kinkuli]

It was like that already at high level. Growler as a DP is not really that good =/. 

 

What i am more interested about is the talks being able to cancel absorb straight to phalanx. This could be really good in zoner matchups. Like absord v13 sword and throw the ball at her. On hit you get a combo, on block you get where you want, close to her. Heck it could maybe even be possible to just punish certain projectiles thrown at you.