[CP] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion v.2 (Discuss Videos/Combos/Questions/etc.)

[RentalBlackout]

When is it ever a good time to use Scud Punishment? I feel like the 50 meter is way better spent as a Growler RC or even a Counter Assault if you're willing to spend 50 meter as a defensive option. Not to mention Scud Punishment is really slow as a reversal. The only way I can see it being used is as those really situational Valiant enders, (...236D>....>6A>OD>Scud Punishment). Big reward after but just as equally of a big risk if opponent guesses right.

[Kinkuli]

A bit MU specific but i like to use it to punish koko's superball if i can't do anything else. It gives you weakpoints and goes right through the ball :3. Otherwise more or less you would use it during combos if you want both weakpoints or to call out holes in your opponents strings (REALLY RISKY though). 

[RentalBlackout]

Yeah that sounds pretty good in situations like that. I found that also in Tager matches, if he's gonna backdash to punish your growler after Gadget Finger, Scud Punishment will catch it if you do that instead. Not much, though it's there.

If only we'd have the ridiculous Unlimited Azrael version of Scud Punishment.

[LordSpectreX]

I use it as a pseudo-comeback mechanic. Counter Assault or Growler RC probably isn't going to win you the game if they have a 90% HP life lead. Whereas Scud into a good reset very well might.

[Verimeloni]

It's not so hard to combo into, especially if you've got a weak point you can use it to get 2. 5B > 5BB > Scud, with UW/LW 5B > 2C > 6D/3D > Scud or after any j.D/j.2D > Scud.

For me personally I would have traded any of his buffs he got in 1.1 for a faster startup Scud.

[Warhound]

If you want to trade off the the damage, you can always do it at the end of a Valiant combo. Gives both weakpoints for awhile, sits them in the corner. Psychologically that'd freak me out.

[killersquid]

I feel as if I'm really bad at neutral game.  Any match up I play I feel as if I can't get in to put pressure and the second my pressure ends I immediately am on the defensive.  Not sure if this is something I have to get used to or if I'm doing something wrong.

[Cheefoo]

Has anyone considered using 236A>RC>IAD>jA>jB>3C instead of just 236A>RC>3C?

 

It's a bit harder to pull off (also you can jC instead of jB - but I've barely been able to get that to work) but it works at further ranges, where the 3C would whiff. Also if you start with 5C>236A BUT you're too far and they recover from 5C's hitstun before the 236A reaches them and they manage to block it, if you input the RC>IAD>jA>jB you're still going to be in a very good situation, much better than if you tried to 3C straight after the 236A.

 

I'm not sure of the full pros and cons, but I did 5C>236A>RC>IAD>jA>jB>3C>22C>2C>2B>TCL>3D and I think I did a tiny tiny bit more damage than without the IAD. However the proration would probably take more effect if you already have a weakpoint applied and use it to extend the combo.

[Warhound]

I feel as if I'm really bad at neutral game.  Any match up I play I feel as if I can't get in to put pressure and the second my pressure ends I immediately am on the defensive.  Not sure if this is something I have to get used to or if I'm doing something wrong.

 

 

I know for me, it was a matter of getting used to having basically all close ranged normals. You pretty much have to be like 5A > 5A > 5BB > 5D > 5C > 6C > 5B > Gustav > 5A > 2D not the best example of a blockstring but you are essentially trying to be all around unpredictable, which is what can make Az so damn scary. Or at this point you should have put the fear of god into them and you can start getting fancy with things like Sentinel, dash through cross up and the like.

 

So basically, after a certain range you can throw out some moves without fear of retaliation. 5D on the edge of it's hitbox is pretty safe, if someone tries to react you can stuff them with a 5C, as it has a pretty good poke range to it. So after a time they might start thinking "well shit, he might throw out 5C or gustav and I'll get nailed, better keep blocking and wait for a 6D or something to punish." And then you fly in with 6B, which is a bit deceptive, or since they're still waiting for you to throw out another move, you dash in and start jabbing, and when they expect you to throw out a safe, fast move like 5B, they'll give you time to throw out Sentinel Dump, which is a pressure reset.

 

It takes getting used to, and I know just setting a training dummy to block everything helps a lot.

 

Has anyone considered using 236A>RC>IAD>jA>jB>3C instead of just 236A>RC>3C?

 

It's a bit harder to pull off (also you can jC instead of jB - but I've barely been able to get that to work) but it works at further ranges, where the 3C would whiff. Also if you start with 5C>236A BUT you're too far and they recover from 5C's hitstun before the 236A reaches them and they manage to block it, if you input the RC>IAD>jA>jB you're still going to be in a very good situation, much better than if you tried to 3C straight after the 236A.

 

I'm not sure of the full pros and cons, but I did 5C>236A>RC>IAD>jA>jB>3C>22C>2C>2B>TCL>3D and I think I did a tiny tiny bit more damage than without the IAD. However the proration would probably take more effect if you already have a weakpoint applied and use it to extend the combo.

 

Man, I can barely do his throw combo or even get TCL to come out half the time. It's good in theory, but getting me to IAD every time? Nu uh. I'll take the sure thing each time.

[killersquid]

Yea I just played some casual lobby matches (By the way:  Much better than ranked matches, holy crap), I feel like I got some neutral game down, managed to take some rounds off of a decent Ragna and Kokonoe.  Still need more practice.  And yea, I should set up the training dummy, any specific options i should look at?

[RentalBlackout]

Neutral is not really something you can teach that easily. You kinda will grasp it eventually. Each match up you'd be playing your neutral game somewhat differently, you won't play the same way versus Hakumen the same way you would play versus Makoto for example. Of course, there are things you can apply in every match up, as your character remains the same, but you have to cater to not only what character you're up against, but also who you are against. 

As long as you know what options you and your opponent have at every range and what options your opponents tend to take at each respective point in a match, you're all set to go. At some point it becomes a mixup in its own way, but that's what makes fighting games interesting. In the end it'll all come down to experience.

 

What you can do to improve your neutral game is just watch really good players play, and kinda try to find out why they did something at that point, and not something else.

[AegisTheImmortal]

I didn't see a hardware, or general discussion area. Just a kind of general gameplay discussion for each respective game. It seems that SRK has the appropriate topics but, the bad thing about that is that there's too MUCH information. And a lot of it in lingo I don't understand.

 

http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/81882/info-thread-rules-faqs-and-tutorials-inside-read-this-before-hitting-that-new-thread-buttonI

I have some experience in this.

What it really depends on is what stick you've bought and how easy it is to muck around. Regardless, the first thing you need to do is ground yourself before reaching in there, simply by touching any metal. Unscrew the back panel, and have a look. If the cables are neat and allow easy access to all the parts it should be fine to work with.

Since the stick itself sounds wonky there could be 4 issues in my experience. The easiest to remedy is that the cable attaching the stick to the circuit board is loose, and simply needs to be pushed back into place. Electrical tape can be a solid option to hold in place, just ensure you use a very small amount. The next would be as recommended above screwing the gate a little tighter. Those would be the screws securing the platform of the stick to the rest of the case. Thirdly, there could be an issue with the wire itself, which would be an obvious fray and needs to be taped with elec tape. The last is the biggest problem, the circuit board itself is defunct, likely due to poor manufacturer soldering. That, unfortunately, is outside my area of expertise, and may require a replacement arcade stick.

 

Disclaimer: I am by no means an expert, as I have only worked on my own arcade stick, and taken a peek at some other modding.

[Effenhoog]

Has anyone considered using 236A>RC>IAD>jA>jB>3C instead of just 236A>RC>3C?

 

It's a bit harder to pull off (also you can jC instead of jB - but I've barely been able to get that to work) but it works at further ranges, where the 3C would whiff. Also if you start with 5C>236A BUT you're too far and they recover from 5C's hitstun before the 236A reaches them and they manage to block it, if you input the RC>IAD>jA>jB you're still going to be in a very good situation, much better than if you tried to 3C straight after the 236A.

 

I'm not sure of the full pros and cons, but I did 5C>236A>RC>IAD>jA>jB>3C>22C>2C>2B>TCL>3D and I think I did a tiny tiny bit more damage than without the IAD. However the proration would probably take more effect if you already have a weakpoint applied and use it to extend the combo.

 

This is really cool, I was kind of sad that they didn't make gustaf RC 3C more consistent in the patch but this seems like a much more reliable option.

[Warhound]

I have some experience in this.

What it really depends on is what stick you've bought and how easy it is to muck around. Regardless, the first thing you need to do is ground yourself before reaching in there, simply by touching any metal. Unscrew the back panel, and have a look. If the cables are neat and allow easy access to all the parts it should be fine to work with.

Since the stick itself sounds wonky there could be 4 issues in my experience. The easiest to remedy is that the cable attaching the stick to the circuit board is loose, and simply needs to be pushed back into place. Electrical tape can be a solid option to hold in place, just ensure you use a very small amount. The next would be as recommended above screwing the gate a little tighter. Those would be the screws securing the platform of the stick to the rest of the case. Thirdly, there could be an issue with the wire itself, which would be an obvious fray and needs to be taped with elec tape. The last is the biggest problem, the circuit board itself is defunct, likely due to poor manufacturer soldering. That, unfortunately, is outside my area of expertise, and may require a replacement arcade stick.

 

Disclaimer: I am by no means an expert, as I have only worked on my own arcade stick, and taken a peek at some other modding.

 

I have a Qanba Q4, don't know if that informs you anymore. I hope it's just as simple as tightening a screw. 

[AegisTheImmortal]

I have a Qanba Q4, don't know if that informs you anymore. I hope it's just as simple as tightening a screw. 

That one has a super neat interior, so you should have next to no trouble replicating the steps above. If it`s under warranty, opening it voids that, so ensure it isn`t a problem that the warranty covers first.

[Warhound]

I think the warranty is something like 30 days and this was bought for Crimbus so...I'm pretty sure I'm out of range.

 

But thanks for answering me, when I have the time maybe I'll give opening it a shot :|

[LegendaryRath]

Would you guys be comfortable continuing this conversation with private messages? I'd like things to stay on topic.

[Warhound]

Yeah I was pretty much done until I actually did something to the stick so, back on topic. 

[Verimeloni]

Thus far the most optimized corner Valiant clean [uW]-hit combo I could find, plus works on the entire cast (timing with Arakune was tough tho):

[uW] 236D > 6*5C > 6*6C > 6*j.C > 6*6B > 6*63214C > 5C > TCL > 5B > 2C > 3C > 6A > 6D = 4859 + weak point & 34 heat

The only thing you have to worry about is the timing between Sentinel/5C & Cobra/Leopard to keep the opponent in the corner. But yeah, instead of 6D you can also do BHS or even Scud 'em if you feel like it.

Edit: I think it's pretty safe to say that in place of 6D you can also do the IAD j.D > 2D lazy tech punish, even tho I hate inputting it.

[RentalBlackout]

About those Hornet combos I mentioned back then, they still are possible to do. The only exception are the ones from point blank range, they seem somewhat impossible now(even if you do 214D>8*j.B>j.C>Airdash>...). Well, realistically we won't really be hitting point blank Hornet Bunkers(so it's not too bad of a loss), but it does affect the one from the backthrow starter. I haven't thoroughly tried to see if you can work it out with delays in Hornet or even the Hornet Chaser part, so it might still be possible, but the Hornet change only seems to cause problems in that regard. It also might be the case of variable character hitboxes affecting it, but I did try it out on Ragna if I remember correctly.

The other ones such as
CH 3D>6A>Hornet>8*j.C>Airdash>Falling j.C>Valiant>5A/5B>TCL>3D

and the likes doesn't seem to have changed as much from before.

 

On the plus side the ones where you hit airborne Hornets in the combos(TC>Hornet; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKms8y7kGw8&t=1m) seem harder to mess up now.

[Capconian]

Sorry If the answer is in a post but I haven't checked, and since the combo section doesn't have the answer I am looking for...:

 

What combo or setup do you guys do when you hit an opponent on 5C fatal on wall bounce on mid screen or 2/3 screen?

[RentalBlackout]

Sorry If the answer is in a post but I haven't checked, and since the combo section doesn't have the answer I am looking for...:

 

What combo or setup do you guys do when you hit an opponent on 5C fatal on wall bounce on mid screen or 2/3 screen?

It's very dependent on height and distance. If you FC 5C them at a really low air height, you can do something like FC 5C>236D>5A>TCL>... The way Valiant hits is really similar to how it connects in airborne [uW] (...)>2C>6D>236D>5A/5B>TCL>... The problem with this is however is that it can be somewhat difficult to hit confirm into.

If they're higher, I think the only thing that can hit them is 6C. If you want to continue the combo however, you have to delay the 6C quite a bit, so it'll look like something FC 5C>Delayed 6C>5A/5B>TCL...If they're too low or if you do it too late it'll blue beat, if too early they'd be too far away for 5A/5B to connect.

 

An easier way out is to just end it with 6D but you have to do it pretty much immediately as well. The most simplistic way is to do 236A, but that doesn't bring you much damage/weakpoints(although you are in advantage).

I find that these combos are fairly inconsistent(due to how dependent it is on distance and height) and really hard to gauge whether it's possible to do, but this was only what I could find. Even the position of the characters affect it a lot(wall bounce stuff). I think these don't work if your back is against the wall.

EDIT: You can even do some form of double weakpoint combo with FC 5C>236D>(5A)>5B>2C>6D>6A>IAD>j.C>214D>5A>j.A>j.B>j.C>jc j.D, but like I said, you have to cancel 5C into 236D(and hold it) pretty much immediately, so I don't see it happening in a real match.

I'd say the most practical way is to hit confirm it into delayed 6C, or 236A.

[Warhound]

About those Hornet combos I mentioned back then, they still are possible to do. The only exception are the ones from point blank range, they seem somewhat impossible now(even if you do 214D>8*j.B>j.C>Airdash>...). Well, realistically we won't really be hitting point blank Hornet Bunkers(so it's not too bad of a loss), but it does affect the one from the backthrow starter. I haven't thoroughly tried to see if you can work it out with delays in Hornet or even the Hornet Chaser part, so it might still be possible, but the Hornet change only seems to cause problems in that regard. It also might be the case of variable character hitboxes affecting it, but I did try it out on Ragna if I remember correctly.

The other ones such as

CH 3D>6A>Hornet>8*j.C>Airdash>Falling j.C>Valiant>5A/5B>TCL>3D

and the likes doesn't seem to have changed as much from before.

 

On the plus side the ones where you hit airborne Hornets in the combos(TC>Hornet; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKms8y7kGw8&t=1m) seem harder to mess up now.

 

Hey I was wondering about the video, is he demoing on differing characters to show that they can be used on everyone? Or because they are only effective on some? Because I'm practicing on Jin, and no. 2 is giving me trouble. forward grab > Hornet > H. Chaser > j.C > ad > (delayed) j.C > Valiant > 5B > TCL > 3D

I'm having a hard time connecting Valiant with a 5B.

[zankoku]

Can someone explain to me proper defensive play against Azrael? A friend was asking me while we were playing and I kinda pulled a blank outside of "instant block and watch for gaps".

[Lucalibur]

That is pretty much it, really. His pressure is mostly safe(though free to DPs and Tager's commands) if he doesn't go for mixups, and his mixups are mostly 50\50s, but if they get blocked all of his pressure is over and on IB certain chars can punish it.

 

Basically, he is either frame trapping or doing mixups. He can't do one while doing the other, so just IB pressure and mash out of overheads or if you IB Gustav.