[CP] Ragna vs Hazama

[floatwater]

Discuss the Ragna vs Hazama matchup here:

MOST of the frame data and game-plan from EX still applies to CP.

Match Start:

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Neutral:

• -
  

Offense:

• -
  

Defense:

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Punishes (on block/reaction):

Combo Notes:

[*]-

[*]-

[crimsonstardust]

Ok I haven't really played this match since CS2, and it feels like some things about the match as changed a bit. It feels like whenever Hazama sicks a chain on me he gets in for free, I'm assuming I have to instant block this if I want to punish this? It's also feeling like Hazama's mid screen game can keep up with Ragna's mid screen pressure but I dunno if that's a lack of match up knowledge on my part (or if I'm scrubby).

[Justice7541]

If you can react to the chain pull you can usually just DP it. It is possible for Hazama to cancel a pull into j.A or airthrow whiff into barrier but he needs time for that. 6A will generally work too but that is easier for him to barrier out, albeit also safer for you.

In terms of neutral poking Ragna really has the advantage anywhere outside chain zoning range. Chains are very fast for projectiles but they're not so good for random pokes, plus they're super unsafe if he whiffs one on you. His 2B is his only poke with any decent range and speed and it's still 11f, and at any rate it'll lose to 5B/5C. Basically as long as you don't let Hazama get to a distance where you can't punish him at least with airdash j.C it really cuts down on his options.

The one thing that makes this matchup hard for Ragna is Jayoku which can randomly blow up your pressure for almost 5k on a correct read, which makes rushdown very risky. On the other hand it's also very easy to space your blockstrings so he can't do anything BUT Jayoku which in turn makes it much easier to bait, i.e. ending with max range 2D is unsafe but Hazama doesn't really have anything that will beat a followup 5B/C at that distance so you can just dial it in so long as you're not too predictable about it.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

5A is almost a universally good option to stop Hazama getting in on a blocked chain, regardless who you are playing. You may have to IB it depending on your char/distance. The real mixup is when Hazama begins chain movements without waiting for hits. You're on your own for those.

[Errol]

5A is almost a universally good option to stop Hazama getting in on a blocked chain, regardless who you are playing. You may have to IB it depending on your char/distance. The real mixup is when Hazama begins chain movements without waiting for hits. You're on your own for those.

not Rachel or Amane. lol...

[crimsonstardust]

I thought 5A was a strong tool for blocked chains, huh, guess I need to mash harder it harder.

[Errol]

You need to IB the chain.

[crimsonstardust]

Guess that's gonna have to be something to practice in the lab, was it free to 5A in CS2? I could of sworn it was but my memory of CS2 is hazy these days.

[Justice7541]

it depends on the distance of the chain. If he does it right at the chain's minimum range a j.A or j.B fly-in is going to be very close to airtight, but if he's doing it from fullscreen you can do it without IB.

[crimsonstardust]

Oh ok that's good to know. I'm sure solid Hazama players would know something like that too, so to get in is it going to be a matter of weaving around the chain nonsense and get in like that?

[-Kid]

It is possible for Hazama to cancel a pull into j.A or airthrow whiff into barrier but he needs time for that. 6A will generally work too but that is easier for him to barrier out, albeit also safer for you.

I would never recommend using 6A to hit Hazama out of chain followups. It's just too risky an option to commit to. It also starts getting a bit complicated when Hazama players start using complex movements such as j.4D~Immediate D. You won't be able to safely AA that if the distance is perfect. I'd always suggest using 5A (especially Ragna 5A), as it has short recovery and good hitbox.

The one thing that makes this matchup hard for Ragna is Jayoku which can randomly blow up your pressure for almost 5k on a correct read, which makes rushdown very risky.

Honestly, that's probably the least of any Ragna player's worry. How you are going to dominate the neutral game poses more of a threat, as approach and locking down can prove to be troublesome. As with any reversal, you just bait accordingly depending on who your playing. As i've mentioned numerous times, if your pressure is anything like the way I use Ragna, you shouldn't be getting reversal'd in your pressure a lot. If you keep it to 2As, 5As, 2C, 2B and a few other normals, reversals don't tend to be a major threat. When you start abusing 5C > BS or 5C > GH, then you are looking to get Houtenjin'd.

As for the neutral game, for Ragna it mainly consists of guessing where he is going to place a chain and getting into the opponents mind to make them throw a chain in the direction they think you are going to go in. Sometimes I've done stupid things like empty jumping on the spot, which made a player I was playing use 6D, as he thought i was going to IAD. After I landed, I just ran in and started pressure immediately. It's just a guessing game really, dunno what more to say.

Edited March 8, 2014 by -Kid

[KayEff]

if hazama gets into your shit you're done

thus the solution is to never let hazama get into your shit

[Justice7541]

ID is like the best possible option anyone could have for getting Hazama out of their shit. Of course he can bait it but it makes his stagger pressure much less safe. Same way his Jayoku makes you trying to reset pressure with non-airtight strings unsafe.

[-Kid]

ID is like the best possible option anyone could have for getting Hazama out of their shit.

wut.

I can think of better, less risky options such as barrier guard. This is not to say that you shouldn't ID against Hazama, but it's not always the best option.

[KayEff]

when hazama has a standing normal that's +2 on block

yeah no

[Fistmaster049]

While this matchup thread is popular, might as well throw a question in there (probably a dumb one but I more want another opinion to be honest)

Is throwing out Blood scythe in this matchup viable?

Sure he has some good AAs to nail you if he sees it but it seems to be able to dodge chains decently well and if he comes in, free fatal

Is this a potential thing if the Haz your playing is constantly in the air? or...

[-Kid]

Sometimes it will have it's uses in tagging Hazama out of the air, but I wouldn't rely on it as a method of approach.

[Justice7541]

You are better off trying to reset pressure with 2C, 6D or 2D (it works) IMO. Hazama has good frames on his nromals but they're also pretty short which means Ragna can do a lot of technically unsafe stuff that Hazama has to just sit and eat because even though he's advantageous on block, he can't reach Ragna with anything. Most likely when you are pressuring him he is going to be waiting for a chance to Jayoku, jump/chain out, or airthrow your Blood Scythe.

Going back to ID vs. Hazama, since Hazama relies so heavily on stagger pressure and gap-filled mixups, just having a strong DP (even if you never use it) forces him to respect you, which makes a big difference.

In general Hazama needs to play against any character with a strong DP differently than, say, Izayoi, who he can just press buttons against randomly until something gets through.

[KayEff]

Going back to ID vs. Hazama, since Hazama relies so heavily on stagger pressure and gap-filled mixups, just having a strong DP (even if you never use it) forces him to respect you, which makes a big difference.

not really. having a DP doesn't mean your opponent will respect you.

[-Kid]

You are better off trying to reset pressure with 2C, 6D or 2D

:|

since Hazama relies so heavily on stagger pressure and gap-filled mixups

Most characters mixup has gaps in them though. As for Hazama relying heavily on stagger pressure, I don't believe that's the case. He's got 214D~A, 6A and 236C as well as those frame traps. I wouldn't say he needs to rely heavily on staggering his normals. Especially against someone who likes to barrier block, Hazama players will want to go straight into mixup when they get in, instead of wasting time staggering normals.

Edited March 14, 2014 by -Kid

[MashThat5A]

You are better off trying to reset pressure with 2C, 6D or 2D

2C, 6D or 2D

2D

rofl

[Justice7541]

What's Hazama going to do versus 2D? Legit question. I think 5C 2D is airtight even if he IBs 5C, or at least close enough to make mashing out a Jayoku fairly difficult. The worst case scenario is he blocks your 2D and Jayokus your pressure reset 5B.

[BlackYakuzu94]

What's Hazama going to do versus 2D? Legit question. I think 5C 2D is airtight even if he IBs 5C, or at least close enough to make mashing out a Jayoku fairly difficult. The worst case scenario is he blocks your 2D and Jayokus your pressure reset 5B.

 

He can Houtenjin the 2D.

[MashThat5A]

What's Hazama going to do versus 2D? Legit question. I think 5C 2D is airtight even if he IBs 5C, or at least close enough to make mashing out a Jayoku fairly difficult. The worst case scenario is he blocks your 2D and Jayokus your pressure reset 5B.

Fine, I'll bite.

 

5C -> 18 frames blockstun

2D -> 18 frames startup

 

Not tight on IB. Next.

 

2D -> -4 on block

 

You are calling a move that is -4 on block and has 0 followup options a good pressure reset. I think you need to re-evaluate some things.

[Justice7541]

Alright, I wasn't sure about the frame data on 5C 2D, I guess it can be Jayoku'd, although the average Hazama player probably isn't going to try it since it's so easy for Ragna to blow up Jayoku.

On block, even if it's -4, it's still in Ragna's favor because his range is so good. A standard 5C 2D reset pushes you out far enough that Hazama has nothing that can reach you, which means his only options are to Gasshou, Jayoku, or try to jump out. Jumping out is sort of legit but you can still go after him to keep him in pressure if he does it. Gasshou and regular block Jayoku are obviously super unsafe and easily baited. That leaves IB Jayoku which is technically a punish on Ragna, except you can just RC ID for a guaranteed punish if he actually tries it.

It's not a 100% safe inescapable infinite Kokonoe-tier blockstring by any means but I'd say the odds break down in Ragna's favor off a blocked 2D.