[Xrd] Venom Gameplay Discussion

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

I've recently taken to using DHM as my go to combo ender in certain matchups and forgoing my knockdown setups. I'm fairly confident in my zoning against the likes of Potemkin, Slayer, Leo, etc and would rather force them to work their way back in than risk getting grabbed/hit/DPed out of my pressure and end up playing "help, I've fallen and I can't get up!"

 

Granted, this still depends on lifelead, screen positioning, and meter, but overall I'm getting good results so far. Thoughts?

[DaiAndOh]

I have to personally disagree unless they're close to death and have meter. I feel like this character needs to make the most of his momentum he earns and give as little chance for others to fight back as well.

 

I suppose it may also depend on what you've seen from the player themselves and how they're dealing with zoning setups?

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

That's true. I honestly have never fought a truly excellent Potemkin or Leo that knows how to deal with Venom's zoning, so I find that I get more damage overall from flooding the screen and forcing them to make mistakes getting in rather than knockdown setups that can sometimes be vulnerable to backdash Buster, flash kick, etc. I'm sure once I fight someone that can take one of those characters and get in regardless of what I attempt in neutral I'll change my tune, but for now; wohoo bullet hell.

I also want to emphasize that this is a horrible idea against anyone with even decent mobility. Most of the cast (Bedman included as he's the only big body that can punish reckless zoning hard in my experience) have better tools to get in than the big slow brawlers.

[GodPress]

I've recently taken to using DHM as my go to combo ender in certain matchups and forgoing my knockdown setups. I'm fairly confident in my zoning against the likes of Potemkin, Slayer, Leo, etc and would rather force them to work their way back in than risk getting grabbed/hit/DPed out of my pressure and end up playing "help, I've fallen and I can't get up!"

 

Granted, this still depends on lifelead, screen positioning, and meter, but overall I'm getting good results so far. Thoughts?

Personally, no, I very rarely use DHM in lieu of KD setups. As you just said you get more damage overall from flooding the screen and forcing mistakes, so why not just go for the KD from 2D, place some balls and continue to zone them to buggery with the option of going for a myriad of oki options if you should so choose to?

 

edit: I really tend to only use DHM a burst punishiment with meter / round ender / hard read round start.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

My mindset is that full screen positioning is more valuable against those characters. The extra hair of damage doesn't hurt either. I still go for oki when I need a big burst of damage in a small amount of time, but getting them that far away that fast is just too good for my turtley ass to pass up. I'm probably overhyping it though since I feel like it's only really useful against a small handful of characters.

[GodPress]

I can see the appeal especially against Leo. I feel like against Pot it would allow him to flick a ball and work his way back in relatively easily though. Have you tried experimenting with say 2D(2)> Set> IAD backwards >Set? It might open up for some interesting zoning options.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

I hadn't considered that actually. I'll definitely experiment with that later today and see what I can find.

[GodPress]

I'm not sure if it'll be a thing but it seems like an okay compromise to allow the possibility of both zoning or oki depending on your mood, it all depends on whether or not you can set twice with the IAD backwards and still be in a dominant position.

 

Edit: Just playing around with this in training vs slayer, 2D > HS set > IAD backwards > Air p.set > 5P(BH) > Stinger H > Carcass S(BH to move it infront of venom) / everything after the 5P(BH) isn't necessary. Tried reversal K Mappa, ends just outside of venoms 5P range & gets punished. DoT whiffs right infront of Venom as well. Jumping the pball puts venom in a decent position to AA with 6p/air grab. Seems alright? 

[SIne]

Personally i only do 2D into double head morbid if have meter to rc for corner carry and i need the damage or its going to kill them , I see the Idea being doing it though. But i think against characters and people  that like to wake up and jump immediately this is less effective, Also against character that have ways around venoms normal zoning , (chipp, elphelt, ramlethal, eddie etc) P ball, k ball, h ball safejump etc... works better

[DaiAndOh]

I'll throw it out in a string every now and then after when people are conditioned to mostly expect S Carcass, it catches backdashes and up backs. But only if I have meter to RC or I have a good life lead and they would die getting caught raw.

[Reki]

combo-wise, DHM helps in giving the extra hits to make certain combos possible like 2D(2) > H-dhm(3) > iad SHD > dashjump KSHD > 6H against sol, sin and 3 others i forgot.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

Something I saw Sanma do in the recent set with Mugen; he would delay his oki to land a counterhit on reversal blitz. It was clear that Mugen was practicing blitz to fuck with Venom's oki in preparation for 1.1. These fools were playing mindgames revolving around something that isn't even in the game yet.

I'm thinking there's something we can do with basic setups to allow for this. Perhaps dash jD for K ball oki to delay the ball hit long enough to get around blitz? It won't be anywhere near airtight, but I'm starting to theorycraft some options that may allow us to actually benefit from the blitz change. Delay ball counterhits are going to be our bread and butter if blitz ends up as strong as we fear.

Does reversal BS makes you instantly vulnerable to throws? I know on wakeup you have a certain number of throw invuln frames so if reversal blitz eliminates those then I can see some dirty grab setups arising from the patch as well. EDIT: This is assuming the blitz wasn't triggered by a ball or anything.

[Justice7541]

Can you even throw a Blitz? I don't think you can. I think you're throw invul during the parry frames.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

From the wiki: "Blitz Shield repels strikes and projectiles, but loses to throws and Overdrives"

I was curious if that throw vulnerability overrode the throw invuln frames you get on wakeup if a reversal Blitz is done.

[Diveman]

That zoning only strat is legit vs Leo. Even jiyuna said to treat him like he's a grappler.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

Findings from screwing around in training mode last night;

-K ball dash jD BH isn't a thing. Gonna have to get creative with the blitz shield baits. Something like K ball dash jump AD back jH BH to punish it but that leads to no damage unless you have them cornered or can RC.

Idea that just popped into my head: Maybe there's something with jP BH to mess with high and low BS? Reversal low BS should completely whiff and leave them open for a throw, and reversal high BS might either trigger too early and get CH by the ball, or leave us out of regect range if BS does trigger. Gonna test this the best I can today.

-reversal blitz doesn't seem to override the built in throw invulnerability on wakeup. Gotta delay the grab like a normal tick throw, but reversal blitz still gives you a massive flash that screams "HEY PUNISH ME" if you already baited it.

-New Sanma bnb, not sure if it's character specific but worked on Sol pretty handily: clS [3] xx PQV, 5P(whiff) BH, IAD into the usual.

EDIT: This was already broken down in the combo thread a while ago. Reading comprehension vs me is a 10/0 matchup.

[King33]

Maybe we could do the normaL k ball oki and just use an early mad struggle?

[DaiAndOh]

Honestly, I think I'll leave this one to the case of "Let's watch 1.1 videos and maybe ask the Japanese players on twitter after it drops".

There's still a lot everyone here needs to work on for 1.0, especially since we have no clue when 1.1 is coming to console.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

Yeah you're right. I'm just obsessing over this because on twitter Fino basically said "Venom is super fun, but new blitz shield screws him. He has to work even harder now."

At least, that's what I decyphered from the nonsense that Google translate spat out: https://twitter.com/fino_077/status/574452374976102400

[SgtFunShinebear]

So I'm not sure how to make this useful, but I'll post it here in case someone else is smarter than me.

 

There's this weird range when you set P ball and use 6H, where if you hit your opponent with the tip of 6H and the ball hits after, it'll knock the opponent up instead of giving you a hard knockdown. If you RC it as a combo starter, it gives you a metric ton of damage, and you can still end with your standard knockdown. Here's a sample in the corner:

 

P set>6H>P ball hits>RC>run-jump>j.K>j.S>j.H>j.D>land>6H>PQV>5P>P ball hits>6H

 

Seems to work on everyone, nets you 202 damage for 50 meter. If anyone can figure out how to utilize this it'd help a lot.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

Probably useful in some DP punish situations or fucking up people who rely on upback a little too much (cough me cough cough), though I would have to test some setups to see how strict it is in regards to spacing and timing. Honestly, if I had the meter and was punishing something like a DP, I'd rather go for a clS with RC for combo extension or 5H xx H DHM RC for consistency sake. I'll still experiment and see if there's any way to set it up to make this a consistent option though.

[SgtFunShinebear]

If nothing else, we can end rounds against stunned opponents with it.

 

Edit: some thoughts, though they may not be useful. You can do this midscreen with the proper spacing as well, only the combo would end after the "j.D>land>6H" portion. The proper distance is essentially match starting distance, or where you hit them with the tip of 6H. Also, it's possible to start off with multiple balls, but you should always end with Pset (IE: K set> P set> 6H also works as a starter.) This ramps up the damage even more. In fact, k set p set 6h starts the combo already at over 100 damage. Maybe you can trick them into punishing you or something. Also, if it's useful for mind games, if you land a throw, and proceed to do nothing but set, a back tech puts them at the exact right distance. Probably not worth it, but something to consider.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

I hadn't thought of that. Definitely useful then since we can dictate spacing and timing pretty freely. Hopefully it will still work after the patch too since the trajectory from 6H BH is "changed".

[SgtFunShinebear]

Also, just tested it, the initial ball will still hit if you catch an opponent trying to jump with 6H, however you won't be able to RC as the 6H connects. Basically 6H hits the ascending opponent, knocking them down, you get the hit freeze frame, and then the ball is hit later during the follow-through animation. It's still a true combo though, and operates in almost the exact same way. if you catch them too high, it either won't connect, or you'l need a different aerial route. I'll work on that.

[SnowMonkeyFunky]

Useful to know. Maybe after RC on an airborne opponent you can dash up into a QV loop? I'll definitely mess with this later.

Unrelated note, but since Eshi has abandoned us to play Sin is currently dedicated to another character, would anyone want me to stream a sort of "Super Basics of Venom: K ball oki and other stuff" now that I have a PS4 stick? It won't be anything too crazy or in depth, just a general video guide for newer players looking to learn him so they have a visual reference.