GodPress Posted March 28, 2015 Posted March 28, 2015 ...Accidentally refreshed and lost a post covering QV in regards to corner air throws. So let me rewrite this. It will work on very low air grabs, if you're looking for consistency you probably want to do the following: Immediate corner Airthrow > 5H/2H(1)/6H > SQV > j.KSHD(BH) > 66.j.KSHD > 6H > Set 104DMG(Sol) Airthrow > 5H/2H(1)/6H > SQV > 66 c.S(1) > j.KSHD(BH) > 6H > Set 94DMG(Sol) variation to use if you see the ball hitting late or you haven't delayed the air string enough. Airthrow > 5H/2H(1)/6H > HQV > 66 c.S(1) > j. KSHD > 6H > Set 84DMG(Sol) tight 2 ball/loose 3 ball. works from further out of the corner than the above. Midpoint between midscreen and corner this is possible: Airthrow > 2H(1)/6H > PQV(lvl2) > 5P(BH) > IAD SHD > 6H > Set 100DMG(Sol) Easier the higher up you do it. On lights omit the level 2. As you can see, I really love QV . That said, despite how sick they all look though, I think 2H/6H > Carcass S > IAD SHD > 6H > whatever nets more damage and is far easier.
Raynex Posted April 4, 2015 Posted April 4, 2015 Alright, more tech! This time I really did test it extensively haha. I made sure all this worked 100%. - As Venom, you inevitably have to block and wait out your opponent's offense at some point. If they are being predictable with their projectile blockstrings (e.g.: Sol doing 2D xx gunflame, Ky doing f.S xx stun edge, or even Venom doing whatever xx Carcass) you can actually QV in the gaps and absorb the projectile + CH them. What I've noticed is that QVs have different range, and the K / S / H ones specifically hit more often than P, so go with one of those ones. I've recorded and tested this on various characters. When it seems like there is no way out, this can actually get you out for free + put a ball on the screen. Really strong momentum shift if used wisely!Match-up specifics I've been working on optimizing punishes against popular characters / common situations. Hopefully this helps!v Sol Bandit Revolver (qcf+K) mid-blockstring: - 6P beats it super consistently, and it's always CH. The optimized punish is CH 6P xx PQV, 5P, iad j.SHD, 6HS. Or easier CH 6P xx KQV, j.PH, land S Carcass for meaty pressure - CH2H(1) xx S Carcass, 66 delay j.SHD, 6HS (150ish). This is good if you were down-backing and have the charge already. - CH c.S(1), j.KSHD, 6HS. This one is for when it's right above your head and 6P looks questionable. c.S is fast and has a good vertical hitbox. - Instant block > 2D Bandit Bringer (hcf+K) mid-blockstring - The typical options don't seem to work because this move launches Sol so high. It has a deep hitbox too. The only real way to punish this is to jump, instant black, and airthrow. - Blitz Shield > whatever - FD more during blockstrings to push yourself into 6P range, where it will actually beat it clean. Only focus on this if it's been a problem during their offense. Kudakero (j,214K) - If you can get under Sol, or if he's already above you, you can very easily instant block > throw. The throw punishes him during recovery, between the flames. - CH 2H(1) xx S Carcass 866 or 66 j.whatever. This is good if you're already charging and he's obviously going to do it. Not hard to time either. 5D - 2D is the best meterless punish. - f.S xx H Stinger Aim RC > whatever. Metered punish v Ky: Greed Sever (214K) / Stun Dipper (236K) - 2D is the best meterless punish. If their blockstring pushed you further away, you get a guaranteed f.S / 2S xx into your move of choice. - f.S xx H Stinger Aim RC > whatever. Metered punish Vapor Thrust (623S/HS) on wake-up - This is old, but 2D low profiles Ky's DP. Give yourself some space to avoid being mash grabbed on wake-up. Crouch or dash towards Ky upon knockdown and input 2D xx S Carcass. If it's blocked / hits you get pressure. If Ky DPs, both hits of 2D whiff and carcass doesn't come out. You get a full c.S(3) punish when Ky lands.
SnowMonkeyFunky Posted April 5, 2015 Posted April 5, 2015 I posted this in the Sol MU thread a while ago, but the best way to deal with BB without Blitz is jump forward (or jump back in the corner), IB, and throw his recovery. You'll end up going in a very short, almost KOF hop-esque arc. 6P "can" work at some ranges but IMO not worth risking the CH. Another blockstring I punish a lot is Axl's gatling anything into 6H. Not only does Blitz destroy this, but anything besides max range 2H [2] > 6H can get nailed by 6P pretty handily. For Zato there's the olden IB 2S and IAD to punish drill. One I try to go for if they get predictable with the drill blockstring into puddle summon Nobiru is IB the drill, IAD forward jH jD to punish that. Don't forget that a LOT of blockstrings across the entire cast can be screwed over with proper FD use to push them out (like you said with Sol's 6P) so do that and counterpoke with 2S xx stuff or H stinger YRC.
Pomparomp Posted April 12, 2015 Posted April 12, 2015 Do we have a more reliable burst punish than IB > airthrow that leads into a hard knockdown?
GodPress Posted April 12, 2015 Posted April 12, 2015 Do we have a more reliable burst punish than IB > airthrow that leads into a hard knockdown? From c.S? Check the combo thread I wrote a few punishes.
Jakestation Posted April 13, 2015 Posted April 13, 2015 I recommend watching Finos training mode and several matches from yesterday. He came to play after the tournament. http://www.twitch.tv/joniosan/b/649033658 forward to 4 hours and 25 mins. If the screen is black go to 4h and 49mins. After Fino has raped the slayer, he comes to beat chappu at 6h 49mins
Justice7541 Posted April 13, 2015 Posted April 13, 2015 Can someone explain the actual mixup on K Ball Oki for me? Is the ball itself supposed to create a crossup or is it meant to make them block while I go for airdash high/empty jump low/safejump mixup? I'm having trouble making it work either way, I can't get the ball to hit crossup ambiguously and the ball hits too early for a high/low mixup.
Redefinition Posted April 13, 2015 Posted April 13, 2015 Yeah, ideal K ball mixup is that you hit the K ball to where it'll force them to block, and then you either land and go low, airdash j.S j.H into c.S, airdash jab(x1 or x2) into landing throw, etc. There are certain spacings where I think you could get the K ball to hit them AS you're crossing them over? but it's really just made to make them block the ball while you mix up. If it's hitting them too early for mixup, just start adding a little delay into your running jK. I usually visually react to when he finishes the ball animation (As in, I don't just go muscle memory to know when the ball animation starts up, I'll see him ACTUALLY finish the animation, then react to that and jump. makes it a little bit slower = more delay = better chance you'll hit them meaty with the ball) but find out a method that works for you.
TittyFOFO Posted April 13, 2015 Posted April 13, 2015 Also keep in mind that the timing has to be altered depending on the character you're facing, and how you knocked them down (face up or face down).
SnowMonkeyFunky Posted April 13, 2015 Posted April 13, 2015 You don't need to worry too much about face up vs face down because Venom's two most common knockdowns (second hit of 2D and 6H) both leave them in the same type of knockdown state (Face up IIRC, but don't quote me on that). The first hit of 2D does the opposite, but usually leaves them too close for K ball oki to be consistent. If I need to settle for one hit of 2D, I usually just P set and go from there. I don't recall what knockdown QV gives, but if you're using it as an ender you're better off going for the plethora of 2 ball oki options like S>P for days of blockstun or K>P with that dirty ass teleport followup.
Justice7541 Posted April 13, 2015 Posted April 13, 2015 Yeah, ideal K ball mixup is that you hit the K ball to where it'll force them to block, and then you either land and go low, airdash j.S j.H into c.S, airdash jab(x1 or x2) into landing throw, etc. There are certain spacings where I think you could get the K ball to hit them AS you're crossing them over? but it's really just made to make them block the ball while you mix up. If it's hitting them too early for mixup, just start adding a little delay into your running jK. I usually visually react to when he finishes the ball animation (As in, I don't just go muscle memory to know when the ball animation starts up, I'll see him ACTUALLY finish the animation, then react to that and jump. makes it a little bit slower = more delay = better chance you'll hit them meaty with the ball) but find out a method that works for you. Seems like the arc from jump forward K takes too long and they can just mash you without even having to use a DP. I'm guessing the trick is to let the ball float forward a bit more and not pressing K immediately as you jump but rather a few frames later, so the ball trails behind you a little more (and is thus more "+"). Also does anyone have issues with crossover airdash backwards j.S not hitting? It seems to whiff for me randomly even when I'm airdashing right into their face.
SnowMonkeyFunky Posted April 13, 2015 Posted April 13, 2015 Which knockdown are you going from? 2D should be pretty airtight when going for jK BH (try double tapping the dash jK to get it out asap), but off 6H knockdowns, dash jS BH hits meaty more consistently. As for airdash back jS, you may be airdashing too low or hitting jS too late and landing before the jS can come out. It could also be the dummy's hurtbox (crouching Sin and Ramlethal always give me trouble in this situation).
DaiAndOh Posted April 14, 2015 Author Posted April 14, 2015 You don't need to worry too much about face up vs face down because Venom's two most common knockdowns (second hit of 2D and 6H) both leave them in the same type of knockdown state (Face up IIRC, but don't quote me on that). The first hit of 2D does the opposite, but usually leaves them too close for K ball oki to be consistent. If I need to settle for one hit of 2D, I usually just P set and go from there.I don't recall what knockdown QV gives, but if you're using it as an ender you're better off going for the plethora of 2 ball oki options like S>P for days of blockstun or K>P with that dirty ass teleport followup.You should be aware of the knockdown timing regardless. Sometimes only 1 hit of 2D will work and you'll get face down. I've lost a tournament match that basically came down to me messing up a wakeup timing and getting mashed out... Seems like the arc from jump forward K takes too long and they can just mash you without even having to use a DP. I'm guessing the trick is to let the ball float forward a bit more and not pressing K immediately as you jump but rather a few frames later, so the ball trails behind you a little more (and is thus more "+").Also does anyone have issues with crossover airdash backwards j.S not hitting? It seems to whiff for me randomly even when I'm airdashing right into their face.Never really had that issue honestly. Against which character? If it's not a hitbox issue, yeah sounds like you need to do it earlier I guess?
Justice7541 Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 Hi I was bored so I made a Venom IRC channel since there's no Skype chat for this character as far as I know and I prefer IRC anyway. Server: irc.rizon.net Channel: #carcassride Direct webchat link Explanation of what IRC is if you don't know
SnowMonkeyFunky Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 That sounds like a good idea. Maybe it'll have better potential to organize that Venom lobby one night. Even if not, organizing mirror match sets should still be beneficial. I have it working on my phone so I can talk shop whenever, data and battery life willing. EDIT @Daiandoh Yeah you're probably right. I actually screwed up in that exact situation last night online (2f so I can't even legitimately blame the lag).
TittyFOFO Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 There's also the fact that 1 hit sweeps are often better at midscreen if you wanna do crossup K ball oki. The ball can whiff if you mistime the j.K, which can easily result in you getting blown up.
Justice7541 Posted April 15, 2015 Posted April 15, 2015 That sounds like a good idea. Maybe it'll have better potential to organize that Venom lobby one night. Even if not, organizing mirror match sets should still be beneficial. I have it working on my phone so I can talk shop whenever, data and battery life willing. EDIT @Daiandoh Yeah you're probably right. I actually screwed up in that exact situation last night online (2f so I can't even legitimately blame the lag). Yeah, just come and idle in it and people can come and ask shit. Alternately just save the info and direct people there whenever you wanna set up a lobby or something.
Raynex Posted April 16, 2015 Posted April 16, 2015 but off 6H knockdowns, dash jS BH hits meaty more consistently. I've been using j.K but I think I might switch to j.S after trying it out. Aside from the basic delay iad / low mixup you get after this setup, I found that if you j.S BH asap after 6HS, the ball whiffs completely but it comes really really close to hitting the opponent's body. Too close to tell imo, and then you just land and throw them. It gives you a decent 3-way off of 6HS, K set ender
SnowMonkeyFunky Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 Honestly I play too many people that mash on throw as a reversal so I never really consider it, but if you can make it work then by all means go for it.
Pomparomp Posted April 17, 2015 Posted April 17, 2015 Every time I try that I get chucked or dp'd immediately.
SnowMonkeyFunky Posted April 20, 2015 Posted April 20, 2015 Theoryfightan time, let me know what you guys think. Yet another relatively simple concept I want to crack open and get input on its usefulness. CR vs QV frametrap concept: 2K clS xx CR/QV blockstring Initial writeup is assuming normal block, but edits contains info on IB and FD. Blockstring to CR is done by 2K 5S~[2]8S hitting S for CR after a small delay to ensure enough charge. CR: +nets a grip of frame advantage to rush back in and go for a frametrap or throw +CHs slow buttons +in the corner it leads to sea floor levels of pressure -can be mashed out of by faster buttons -jump out viable midscreen -kind of difficult execution QV: +catches jump out and a handful* of backdashes for a knockdown. Even if they 'can' backdash, the timing is incredibly tight. +cleanly frametraps any buttons for a potentially damaging CH wallbounce combo (QV type and screen position dependant) -ends pressure I wanted to generalize a scenario where QV can function as a viable frametrap. It's hard to make the opponent want to hit buttons or get out of a situation unless you consistently put them in a shitty scenario. CR on block forces that shitty scenario. Edits: On IB and FD: In general, FD doesn't push you out far enough to make either special whiff, and only stands to net you more frame advantage. IB does open up gaps for DPs and Supers**. It seems this particular string leaves you far enough out that even on IB, QV can't be punished (I couldn't even get Slayer's DoT to punish. The only exception I could fine was Pot***). **On invincible and low profile shit: Invuln supers eat past the QV and either beat or trade against CR. Watch for that. DPs are hit or miss, literally. Sol's DP beats both on normal block, but Ky's won't reach even on IB. I-No can IB the second hit of clS and S STBT under QV, but CR beats this option. Character specific shenanigans: Slayer- He can backdash to avoid QV or forward dash to punish CR. If he forward dashes QV he gets knocked down. If he backdashes CR, he can duck under the oncoming ball, but you're left with breathing room. Since Slayer's best option to deal with blockstring xx CR isn't to jump or hit buttons, this frametrap is nowhere near as effective as it can be. Stick to zoning him IMO. Bedman- Backdash can avoid both. Forward dash can he used to armor teleport from CR, but it's super tight. Still useful in this matchup because the best Bedman gets is space which benefits Venom more. Instead of fishing for a CH you're fishing for real estate. ***Potemkin- He can backdash away from QV, but will eat a CR if he tries to. Also Pot buster + good IBing blows this entire frametrap out of the water. He can buster between clS and CR on normal block, and if he IBs the majority of the string, he can cleanly punish QV. This is difficult to do and involves IBing QV with a 63214 and inputting 6P for the punish. Overall more useful than vs Slayer, but still keep an eye out for Pots with FAB level IB skills. Also since he has to block all 3 hits of clS even on crouch, you can vary your timing even further to fuck with him. Venom- We can QV the CR for a free CH whee. *Characters that can't backdash QV midscreen- I-No, Axl, Venom, Leo, Zato Tldr; CR vs QV on block leads to a neat little frametrap mindgame.
Redefinition Posted April 26, 2015 Posted April 26, 2015 Any Venom's to try to watch at NWM? when I was there, I think 2GB Combo was still in, and he was playing Venom. I went 2-2 this weekend. Played like hell against some guy and also ran into Veteru in my pools who spanked me. When I'm more awake and have collected my thoughts, I'll try to come up with some things to post in specific match ups.
DaiAndOh Posted April 26, 2015 Author Posted April 26, 2015 when I was there, I think 2GB Combo was still in, and he was playing Venom. I went 2-2 this weekend. Played like hell against some guy and also ran into Veteru in my pools who spanked me. When I'm more awake and have collected my thoughts, I'll try to come up with some things to post in specific match ups.Huh, when I met 2GB at FR, he was playing only Millia. Interesting.
Hollysmoke Posted April 26, 2015 Posted April 26, 2015 Huh, when I met 2GB at FR, he was playing only Millia. Interesting. He dropped her for Venom. He was playing him pretty fundamentally sound too. Didn't use teleports at all though.
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