[Xrd] Slayer Gameplay Discussion

[daymendou]

I am making an Evernote for 1.1, beginning with combos collected from Hase's favorited tweets and the 1.1 changelist based on SuperJ's list here. I hope to have it ready by the end of the day.

 

Link is here. If anyone has requests, please let me know. In particular, I want the combo notation to be legible, but I'll include the original tweets as well.

[ApertureBlack]

I don't see the mixup here. IAD j.H is blockable on reaction, particularly since the j.H needs to hit late for that string to work. Seems like they can just downback the stomp then stand up if they see you jump. 5H IAD is good for pressure, but at that point I don't know why you wouldn't do IAD j.SK or IAD j.D cape, since both of those are substantially faster than j.H so the gap will be smaller.

 

I just did J.HS cause it did nice damage and I wanted to show the new combo that links after it.  It just puts you in a very nice position, thats all.  

 

J.HS does not need to hit late to link into 2P either.

[Loli-Zero]

Yeah it's definitely easy to fuzzy.

IAD mixups in general are pretty good though because of j.S. j.S can be cancelled into j.K for a fuzzy, or cancelled into j.2K to land and go for low/throw. After j.SK you can also go for frame trap with 5S or j.214K, or land and throw. These post j.S mixups are actually pretty sick in the corner if you know what you're doing. The problem is that IAD j.S is duckable by most characters. However, if someone is attempting to duck j.S and you did j.D or j.HS you will hit them. So in essence, this is a better way to think of it:

After f.S you can go for 2HS (2D also works for this application midscreen) for a frame trap, or if you think they will block you can IAD at them. Post IAD you have a mixup of overhead to punish low blocking, or j.S to punish stand blocking by giving you access to a new layer of mixups after j.S.

If you watch Hase he does this stuff all day to open people up, and it's pretty effective.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SuperJ]

the low hitstop on j.S owns. one of my favorite cheap tricks is safe jump j.S > bdc bite

 

you want to be careful with iad j.H... ruu airthrew me literally every time I tried it when he visited last year!

 

one thing missing from my changelog: CH pilebunker has extra hitstop. you can send them coast to coast off a RC P pile counterhit lol

[lofo]

Yeah it's definitely easy to fuzzy.

IAD mixups in general are pretty good though because of j.S. j.S can be cancelled into j.K for a fuzzy, or cancelled into j.2K to land and go for low/throw. After j.SK you can also go for frame trap with 5S or j.214K, or land and throw. These post j.S mixups are actually pretty sick in the corner if you know what you're doing. The problem is that IAD j.S is duckable by most characters. However, if someone is attempting to duck j.S and you did j.D or j.HS you will hit them. So in essence, this is a better way to think of it:

After f.S you can go for 2HS (2D also works for this application midscreen) for a frame trap, or if you think they will block you can IAD at them. Post IAD you have a mixup of overhead to punish low blocking, or j.S to punish stand blocking by giving you access to a new layer of mixups after j.S.

If you watch Hase he does this stuff all day to open people up, and it's pretty effective.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'd never heard of this j.S mixup so I tested it. If you do 5H IAD j.SK or j.S2K, in both cases they can block the j.S and then hold upback to avoid any j.2K-based mixup. If you did the j.SK setup they just block high normally. I'm not really seeing how this could work versus a knowledgeable opponent.

 

Mixing in stomp/sweep is still useful because it counters them from going for a psychic 6P/rising j.P vs the IAD, but I don't see any high/low mixup, it's reactionable if they commit to blocking.

[Loli-Zero]

Yeah it's mostly hit throw stuff. And if people are holding up then you can blow them up for that. You can hold up to get out tons of mixups, that doesn't make them bad inherently.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lofo]

Yeah it's mostly hit throw stuff. And if people are holding up then you can blow them up for that. You can hold up to get out tons of mixups, that doesn't make them bad inherently.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't see any room to blow them up for jumping. Either you continue the blockstring with j.K and they stay in blockstun or you leave a gap with j.2K and they jump. You can't really control the width of the gap so you can't make it small enough to frame trap their jump startup. Is there some other route that punishes jumps that you didn't mention?

 

I would agree that there exist good jumpable mixups, but generally they have other options to punish jumps as well. If your entire decision tree loses to upback and gives them enough time to recognize it (as it does here, since the IAD gives them time to recognize the setup), you don't have a mixup.

 

edit - maybe j.SH would frame trap? would have to try it later, going out now

[Loli-Zero]

IAD does not give them time to recognize the setup. IAD gives them time to recognize they are being IADed at. Assuming they chose to respect frame traps and block/stay on the ground, they will notice they are being IADed at and likely block high. If they didn't block high, it's because they either are bad and can't react to IADs, or because they expected IAD j.S but didn't want to risk doing a preemptive antiair. So they hold down back to defend against frame traps and IAD j.S. But if they do that they are susceptible to overheads, which is ideal for slayer (damage better then mixup).

Now let's say you are playing a smart player. Here is what he/she will likely do: hold down back initially to be safe against 2HS/2D, then block high to be safe against IAD buttons that are not j.S, then look for j.S to prepare to defend against any other mixups. Most players cannot react to the first hit of j.S, and will need to block j.SK before they can make any further defensive situations. Some players may be able to hit up at the proper time (assuming it's safe against other scenarios that are not visually confirm able). If they do this, they are most likely going to HOLD up beating throw/low and defending against j.K, but then losing to normals after landing from j.K (c.S if it doesn't true blockstring, 5K, 2K) as they will be hit out of jump startup. Let's say this defender is godlike, and they did all of the above steps AND were able to block j.S (without holding up before it connects), hit up back during j.K to defend against land mixup, and then back down to defend against landing normals post j.K. This is a fuzzy jump, but it will lose to j.SK land throw. Even if they do 2 consecutive fuzzy jumps to beat this possible throw, they are then susceptible to delayed normals. And if they have put that much focus into blocking this string of mixups, I'm dash throwing their ass before I even start this tree because focus is a limited resource and that's why any non 50/50 mixups work in the first place.

Nevertheless I appreciate you bringing up that potential hole, I will lab some alternative decisions slayer can make to punish that jump if he wants. Like you'd said j.SH may frame trap. But there's probably 5 other things to try too.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[daymendou]

10 Pilebunkers was achieved this day...this month of MAY

 

https://youtu.be/_PPCOILLpmQ

 

 

Can someone with Leo test this 11 Pile combo?

 

https://youtu.be/zjN4m1RMxnA

 

CH P Pile x4 > P Pile RRC > K Pile > 6D K Pile K Pile P Pile > K Pile P Pile

95 RISC

Near start position

 

I can't get the P Pile after 6D on Sol, Ky, or Slayer. Try on jumping Leo if you can't finish the first section.

Alternatively, try to start with YRC and see if you can get the first P Pile prorated to get it on May.

[Loli-Zero]

Ok, so I tested, and if you really want to call someone out for hitting up back every time they block a j.S you can just cancel into j.2K early so that it actually comes out before landing. The j.2K will hit them out of prejump frames and then you can combo. Also if they get hit by j.S for some reason it will still combo into j.2K. So that's good.

Also I think Gatling to whiff j.HS for the land throw/low is better then j.2K now that I look at it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ApertureBlack]

10 Pilebunkers was achieved this day...this month of MAY

 

https://youtu.be/_PPCOILLpmQ

 

 

Can someone with Leo test this 11 Pile combo?

 

https://youtu.be/zjN4m1RMxnA

 

CH P Pile x4 > P Pile RRC > K Pile > 6D K Pile K Pile P Pile > K Pile P Pile

95 RISC

Near start position

 

I can't get the P Pile after 6D on Sol, Ky, or Slayer. Try on jumping Leo if you can't finish the first section.

Alternatively, try to start with YRC and see if you can get the first P Pile prorated to get it on May.

 

I tried and I couldnt get the P-Pile on Leo so I just ended with super

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cykEUlkOJ6I

[Dosu]

Is there any compiled list of 1.1 combos or an updated guide for Slayer? I'm trying to learn him.

[ApertureBlack]

Has anyone found any good reliable combos off of a spaced 2HS < 5K in the corner vs characters like Millia and May?

 

I havnt been able to find anything worthwhile.

[PepperySplash]

Has anyone found any good reliable combos off of a spaced 2HS < 5K in the corner vs characters like Millia and May?

 

I havnt been able to find anything worthwhile.

I found some stuff but it requires Tension, so it's up to you whether or not you want to spend it to get knockdown for Oki off of 2H.

http://youtu.be/itHybI6TRsI

Notes: -All May combos work on Chipp. Last May combo I think is universal for all the other characters in the video... except Elphelt.

-Spacing-wise all of these work after a full range backdash, from point blank, and closer. The momentum from 214K pretty much always gets you in the same spot to do your air combo.

- If you are farther than a full backdash away, the 214K might not connect. You can circumvent this by RCing the startup of 214K to get its momentum, which you can then follow up with an air combo. These are always the least damaging variants though.

-The more hits of 214K you get, the more damage you will do (generally). The trade off is that it becomes harder to get an untechable knockdown after it.

There might be other, more damaging, variants of these combos because I made them up fairly quickly. It's up to you whether or not you think it's viable because of the meter expenditure, but the option is always there.

[ApertureBlack]

I found some stuff but it requires Tension, so it's up to you whether or not you want to spend it to get knockdown for Oki off of 2H.

http://youtu.be/itHybI6TRsI

Notes: -All May combos work on Chipp. Last May combo I think is universal for all the other characters in the video... except Elphelt.

-Spacing-wise all of these work after a full range backdash, from point blank, and closer. The momentum from 214K pretty much always gets you in the same spot to do your air combo.

- If you are farther than a full backdash away, the 214K might not connect. You can circumvent this by RCing the startup of 214K to get its momentum, which you can then follow up with an air combo. These are always the least damaging variants though.

-The more hits of 214K you get, the more damage you will do (generally). The trade off is that it becomes harder to get an untechable knockdown after it.

There might be other, more damaging, variants of these combos because I made them up fairly quickly. It's up to you whether or not you think it's viable because of the meter expenditure, but the option is always there.

 

Its true you can always do that...but the meter isnt what I was looking for.

 

Regardless I would probably just RRC  2HS into 2 Pilebunkers < Air combo myself.

[lofo]

IAD does not give them time to recognize the setup. IAD gives them time to recognize they are being IADed at. Assuming they chose to respect frame traps and block/stay on the ground, they will notice they are being IADed at and likely block high. If they didn't block high, it's because they either are bad and can't react to IADs, or because they expected IAD j.S but didn't want to risk doing a preemptive antiair. So they hold down back to defend against frame traps and IAD j.S. But if they do that they are susceptible to overheads, which is ideal for slayer (damage better then mixup).

Now let's say you are playing a smart player. Here is what he/she will likely do: hold down back initially to be safe against 2HS/2D, then block high to be safe against IAD buttons that are not j.S, then look for j.S to prepare to defend against any other mixups. Most players cannot react to the first hit of j.S, and will need to block j.SK before they can make any further defensive situations. Some players may be able to hit up at the proper time (assuming it's safe against other scenarios that are not visually confirm able). If they do this, they are most likely going to HOLD up beating throw/low and defending against j.K, but then losing to normals after landing from j.K (c.S if it doesn't true blockstring, 5K, 2K) as they will be hit out of jump startup. Let's say this defender is godlike, and they did all of the above steps AND were able to block j.S (without holding up before it connects), hit up back during j.K to defend against land mixup, and then back down to defend against landing normals post j.K. This is a fuzzy jump, but it will lose to j.SK land throw. Even if they do 2 consecutive fuzzy jumps to beat this possible throw, they are then susceptible to delayed normals. And if they have put that much focus into blocking this string of mixups, I'm dash throwing their ass before I even start this tree because focus is a limited resource and that's why any non 50/50 mixups work in the first place.

Nevertheless I appreciate you bringing up that potential hole, I will lab some alternative decisions slayer can make to punish that jump if he wants. Like you'd said j.SH may frame trap. But there's probably 5 other things to try too.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not sure what you mean susceptible to overheads in that situation. Slayer's overheads are 6K, which is not a threat outside oki situations, 5D/jump moves, which are reactionable, and It's late, which is a different situation since it requires the Under Pressure setup. None of those are going to punish them downbacking+reacting.

 

I don't think hitting 474 during blocking Slayer's IAD strings is that difficult with a bit of practice. I'm sure any of my regular opponents could do it if we discussed it and they took a bit of time to practice it first. Doing two fuzzy jumps would be difficult I agree, but the first one, which you would do against this mixup every time, wouldn't take that much focus. I agree that if it did take a lot of focus (I don't think it does), they'd be open to FDC bite

 

The j.S2K frame trap string seems interesting, thanks. I will look into it.

[RoBoBOBR]

his 6K is +5 on crouching now, how's that "not a threat outside oki situations"? =)

[lofo]

his 6K is +5 on crouching now, how's that "not a threat outside oki situations"? =)

As far as I know you can't combo it without RC and even that's not great, so whatever to that. It seems basically the same as May's 6K. The only thing a low damage uncomboable overhead can do is get you flustered. If you just don't care about getting hit by it then it's not really threatening. 

 

 

If I'm wrong and it's possible to combo then I stand corrected!

[Flick]

his 6K is +5 on crouching now, how's that "not a threat outside oki situations"? =)

maybe you've mistaken it with it's late. 6K now just has 2 less recover frame tham 1.0's. So it's just +2 on non meaty crouching hit

[RoBoBOBR]

Yes, sorry for the confusion =) It probably hits crouchers on later active frames, but still that doesn't make it a +5. 

[ApertureBlack]

As far as I know you can't combo it without RC and even that's not great, so whatever to that. It seems basically the same as May's 6K. The only thing a low damage uncomboable overhead can do is get you flustered. If you just don't care about getting hit by it then it's not really threatening. 

 

 

If I'm wrong and it's possible to combo then I stand corrected!

 

 You can combo off of standing counter hits very easily now and Faust in general.  If you do it as a meaty wakeup you have the advantage and it puts you in the perfect range for a bite if you wanted to do one.

 

EX:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-4AImdF-Rs

[Loli-Zero]

I'm not sure what you mean susceptible to overheads in that situation. Slayer's overheads are 6K, which is not a threat outside oki situations, 5D/jump moves, which are reactionable, and It's late, which is a different situation since it requires the Under Pressure setup. None of those are going to punish them downbacking+reacting.

I don't think hitting 474 during blocking Slayer's IAD strings is that difficult with a bit of practice. I'm sure any of my regular opponents could do it if we discussed it and they took a bit of time to practice it first. Doing two fuzzy jumps would be difficult I agree, but the first one, which you would do against this mixup every time, wouldn't take that much focus. I agree that if it did take a lot of focus (I don't think it does), they'd be open to FDC bite

The j.S2K frame trap string seems interesting, thanks. I will look into it.

Dude, I'm saying it they downback to make j.S whiff thy are hosed if you did j.Hs or D (overheads that hit crouchers) so it's a hard read (because you can't react to which jump normal was chosen and there is nothing to fuzzy here.

In regards to fuzzy jumping j.S you're just missing the point. If I am mixing up between j.S land throw, j.SK land throw, j.SK 5K, and j.S2K stuff fuzzy jump doesn't do shit. There is no defensive option that will cover the options down the tree and leave you in a state where you can still react to simple mixups that normally you could stop with other easy defensive OSes.

If you don't believe me that's fine. This is one small aspect of Slayer's mixup game. I hit good players with this stuff all the time, but even if they were blowing it up the character has enough mixup options to open them up for focusing on j.S mixups as a threat. Hase throws people after j.S and j.SK too so clearly it's working for him in Japan

What good players actually do against these tick throws is respond with fuzzy throw. If you sniff that out you can just do j.2K stuff or even land after j.K and 6P if you aren't in throw range already.

FD also weakens any throw attempts, because it pushes you out too far to throw after j.K, and limits your options down to a manageable amount for the defender.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lofo]

Dude, I'm saying it they downback to make j.S whiff thy are hosed if you did j.Hs or D (overheads that hit crouchers) so it's a hard read (because you can't react to which jump normal was chosen and there is nothing to fuzzy here.

In regards to fuzzy jumping j.S you're just missing the point. If I am mixing up between j.S land throw, j.SK land throw and fuzzy jump j.SK 5K, fuzzy jump doesn't do shit. There is no defensive option that will cover the options down the tree and leave you in a state where you can still react to simple mixups that normally you could stop with other easy defensive OSes.

If you don't believe me that's fine. This is one small aspect of Slayer's mixup game. I hit good players with this stuff all the time, but even if they were blowing it up the character has enough mixup options to open them up for focusing on j.S mixups as a threat. Hase throws people after j.S and j.SK too so clearly it's working for him in Japan

What good players actually do against these tick throws is respond with fuzzy throw. If you sniff that out you can just do j.2K stuff or even land after j.K and 6P if you aren't in throw range already.

FD also weakens any throw attempts, because it pushes you out too far to throw after j.K, and limits your options down to a manageable amount for the defender.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh, I just assumed any decent would block the IAD string high pretty much every time, because blocking it low to maybe bait out a whiff is too risky. If that's what you meant about overheads well okay then, that wasn't clear.

 

I am not missing your main point, I even said doing two fuzzy jumps is hard. It seems like there really is some mixup in there, but you need to be able to hit their jump startup for it to exist. You claimed later that j.S2K will hit their jump startup, in which case okay if that works then I agree that's a mixup point. Also you can do the same thing with c.S/throw or whatever once you land, and I always agreed that was a mixup point. I merely disagreed that the initial j.SK/j.S2K was a mixup.

 

It's not a matter of belief but of critical thinking. I've not personally noticed Hase doing a j.S2K setup, only j.SK then pressure/throw, and I can escape it in training mode, so I'm naturally skeptical. It seems I've got under your skin about this. If so, sorry, that was not my intent.

 

@ApertureBlack: Oh yeah that's true. I was talking about opening people up outside oki, though, so I think counterhits are not really relevant for this. When you mention Faust do you mean that it hits late enough that you can combo off it vs him without CH/knockdown? Because that would be pretty sweet if true.

[Loli-Zero]

Eh, fair enough. I'll drop it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[koufdell]

you can combo off 6k  try this in corner 2D > whiff 5 p > 6k > cs works on crouching venom  on sol whiff 2P works standing no counter hit