[Xrd] May Gameplay Discussion

[0wneRz]

Sorry i'm a beginner in Guilty Gear :D When you talk about safe jump you talk about a jump with 9 then photless guard or about a 9 jump with a j.C or j.D (or both?) ?

 

EDIT : My bad i guess safe jump low is : 9 -> 2K or 2D again?

[RurouniLoneWolf]

Space it right and it'll even whiff. My point was 'don't expect him to just sit and firm it', i.e. it won't be guaranteed to put him in blockstun. It does the same thing to Tyrant Rave and DI too, but you can punish them as well. The idea itself is a very good option, sorry if I used the wrong words to make it sound like I was dismissing it - I only meant to add extra info for situations to be wary of [i'm tired]. 

 

It's cool. Don't worry about it. Just wanted to make sure, my understanding of how the oki worked wasn't wrong. Thanks for adding the additional info!

[raisedbyfinches]

safejump?

I'll try to paraphrase what I remember of Maj's street fighter definition (because the concept is pretty much the same): any jump attack setup design to circumvent all counterattack possibilities. Usually performed after knockdown; where the last airborne frame of a deep jump in attack is designed coincide with the opponent's first vulnerable frame. If their quickest invulnerable attack is slower than landing recovery of the jumping character then that attack can never punish the jump in attempt whilst the attacker is holding a defensive direction.

So yes, after a sweep you can learn to time a 9 jump so that you will hit high with a j.s (preferably) if they block and block if they reversal.

[Ben Reed]

The short and sweet definition of a safe jump is a meaty jump-in (while holding down-back to block) on a knocked-down opponent, timed so deep that ideally you get one of three outcomes:

(1) The opponent wakes up blocking, blocks the jump-in, you're safe on block.
(2) The opponent wakes up mashing something non-invulnerable (like 4/6H trying to throw you) and gets hit by the jump-in, you get a combo.
(3) The opponent wakes up with a DP/reversal super attack, going through your jump-in attack, but you did it so late that the reversal will be too slow to hit your landing recovery (landing will cancel most of the whiff recovery), and you'll block the reversal. You then do whatever your BnB punish is on a point-blank blocked DP, super, etc.

In order to have a true safe jump (one that works!), your attack must be timed so that it would be BLOCKED or HIT, not whiffed, if the opponent wakes up doing something non-invulnerable. If you do your attack too deep and too late, you can be thrown out of your landing recovery since you're right next to the opponent. To make sure you're timing your safe jumps properly, do this in training mode:

(1) Pick the character you want to practice on as the one you play.
(2) Pick May as your dummy.
(3) Record May to do the safe jump setup on your character.
(4) Test the safe-jump timing by attempting to wake up with throw, blocking, or an invulnerable reversal attack.

Depending on the character(s) and the knockdown in question, timing a safe jump can be easy or hard. May's easiest safe jump is from any combo ending in 2D > [4]6S, where you immediately dash jump and then do a well-timed jS to try and safely meaty them. The only trick is doing the dash jump ASAP, and then you have plenty of time to watch the opponent wake up to make sure your jS is timed right. Not all safe jumps are this easy to time, though. (Raw 2D is harder. I still need to work on that one.)

There are two ways to counter a safe jump in Guilty Gear:

(1) Blitz Shield the safe jump attack (will get even easier in 1.1)
(2) Backdash on wakeup to escape the attack (assuming the character's backdash is invulnerable long enough and moves backward fast enough)

So safe jumps aren't unbeatable, but they're EXTREMELY important, especially against lower-level players who love to mash on wakeup. If you think netplay Sol/Ky is gonna wake up with DP every time you knock him down and jump at him, you can just run safe jumps on him over and over again and collect free punish combos on blocked DPs. Safe jumps are a good, safe way to test players you don't know to quickly see how mashy they are (or aren't).

[0wneRz]

Get it, i'll try this out! Thank you

[raisedbyfinches]

Get it, i'll try this out! Thank you

The 2d [4]6s ender you need to delay the iad on a lot of the cast because of their wakeup speed. Make sure you experiment and include Chipp and elphelt in your testing! Elphelt' super dp is particularly obnoxious because 3f pass whilst the screen is frozen (so if you're hitting the ground then you will end on the ground) and then 1f after.

Good luck. If you need any more help just ask!

[0wneRz]

Hum am i supposed to use an IAD or dash then 9 jump? I guess you can safe jump in each of these setups?

[Ben Reed]

Dash jump from 2D > [4]6S is the safest version of the basic safe jump (hardest to mess up), and it's universal, but it's also the least deceptive. It's safe against smart players, but also unlikely to hit them unless they make an execution error (or you do, and they make a bigger one).

The IAD version requires more practice to time properly, but is almost certainly more likely to land a hit than the dash jump version. Many players won't associate IAD's with safe jumps because (somewhat rightly) they require a much larger momentum/recovery commitment than a simple dash jump. 

You can get by knowing one safe jump inside and out and rotating it with dolphin oki if your opponent isn't/stops waking up (i.e. end your basic combos with 2D > Applause instead of 2D > [4]6S if you don't have meter for RC or don't particularly need corner push or distance). But knowing multiple (assuming you can do them consistently in a match) is even better, because it keeps your opponent confused about what they can do on wakeup. 

The end goal of safe jumps is to teach your opponent they can't wake up hitting a button, because they don't know for sure what you're going to do. The safest things they can do with that uncertainty are Blitz Shield and backdash, and those are generally a lot less threatening to your momentum than other wakeup options. (Blitz Shield may threaten a combo, but it's also typically easier to counter-Blitz somebody who lands such a wakeup Blitz Shield. They'll be typically thinking "Finally!" and be really eager to put you into a combo ASAP to make you "pay" for safe jumping them -- but since you're in an aerial reject state, their options to immediately hit you before the reject expires are relatively limited, and so it's pretty easy to predict the timing they'll try and hit you with and deny them a punish with your own Blitz.)

[raisedbyfinches]

The IAD version is very strong because you can time it to whiff and go low. I think Ice Cube posted a video a while back in one of the threads showing it.

Once you have taught your opponent to block you can teach them not to blitz by doing the early and and going low to beat it.

May has some very basic but strong ways to make people respect her on their wakeup.

[ChexGuy]

https://twitter.com/kedako_faital/status/582183335822147584

1.1 midscreen OHK dolphin loop reps for each character where 1 loop is (c.S > 2H > [2]8H) and 1.5 loops is 2H > [2]8H > (c.S > 2H > [2]8H)

(e.g. 3.5 loops is (c.S > 2H > [2]8H)x2 > 2H > [2]8H > c.S > 2H > [2]8H)

[raisedbyfinches]

This is how many reps you get on who (from Kedako)

SO：3

KY：3.5

MA：4

MI：3.5

ZT：3

PO：4

FA：3

CH：3.5

AX：3

VE：3

SL：3.5

IN：3

BE：3.5

RA：3

SI：3.5

EL：3.5

LE：4

[0wneRz]

Wow isn't that really long compared to the actual (c.S -> 2H -> [2]8H)x2 (or maybe you can already do more loops and i don't even know it yet x)

[raisedbyfinches]

Wow isn't that really long compared to the actual (c.S -> 2H -> [2]8H)x2 (or maybe you can already do more loops and i don't even know it yet x)

On some you already get more. All of the ones that say 4 are literally double what you wrote (which would have a value of 2).

[0wneRz]

On some you already get more.

 

You have my attention, when did I get more :o ?

 

So I guess OHK is gonna be really devastating in 1.1... Can't wait for the US ver. patch sigh... 

[0wneRz]

Hi guys, it's me again ahah

 

Could someone pls tell me what is the most efficient way to punish a whiff/guarded DP from Ky, Sol or even Chipp ? Thanks guys

[Ben Reed]

Punishing baited and blocked DP is pretty easy. On Sol, Ky, and Chipp you can do c.S > whatever for a basic punish. Example:

running cS > 2D > [4]6S or [4]6H > optional RC extension

With more time to gain more run momentum, you can do:

running cS > 5H > 2D > [4]6S or [4]6H > optional RC extension

You can also punish with 5D, but the timing may require a little more practice. Don't be afraid to wait, though; the landing recovery on DPs is pretty significant in this game. There's no DPs really like Ken's LP Shoryuken in SF4, with blink-and-you'll-miss-it awkward punishes. Take your time and do it right.

If you punish with 5D, here's some basic punishes:

(midscreen) 5D > homing jump > jH > jH > jS > jH > jD > djS > djH > djD > Ensenga
(corner) 5D > homing dash > cS > 6P > 5H > cS > 2D > [4]6S or [4]6H or Applause for oki

Ideally you have plenty of time to ground-hit the opponent, but if you air-hit them from an early punish (understandable), you can do an air combo into Ensenga instead like so:

cS > jS > jH > jD > djH > djD > Ensenga

On a REALLY big miss (say a whiffed Grand Viper), if you're close enough, soon enough, you can punish with 6[H] > [4]6H for even more damage.

midscreen: 6[H] > [4]6H > RC > air dash jH > jS > jH > jD > djH > djD > Ensenga
corner: (I'll let someone else handle this, I need to work on these myself)

When in doubt, just do a cS > 2D > etc combo on a blocked DP. You should have plenty of time to react. Go into the lab, program the dummy to jump vertically, DP, then hold down-back to block. No matter how dumb/tedious it seems, practice this from time to time when you're bored in the lab. DPs are big opportunities for damage, so you need to punish as big as you can.

[0wneRz]

Thank you very much ! Yeah I'm not punishing this the proper way and it's a lot of miss opportunities (i thought you was suppose to punish with the ennemy in the air, i didn't event know it was possible to punish on ground...) I'm going to try this right now ^^

[raisedbyfinches]

Hi guys, it's me again ahah

Could someone pls tell me what is the most efficient way to punish a whiff/guarded DP from Ky, Sol or even Chipp ? Thanks guys

Why isn't 5s 2h [2]8h, 5s jc.shd dj.hd ensenga enough?

[Vashimus]

Just ran into the massive brick wall that is Potemkin. Played some super long sets with the guy just to get a feel for everything, but what a struggle. Doesn't help I haven't been practicing on Pot's weight much.

[0wneRz]

Why isn't 5s 2h [2]8h, 5s jc.shd dj.hd ensenga enough?

It could be enough ahah but untill now i was using a weirdy 5K > c.S > jc > j.H > j.D > jc > j.H > j.D > j.41236H (and failed it 5 times on 10..) so thank you guys for the combo ideas!

[raisedbyfinches]

Just ran into the massive brick wall that is Potemkin. Played some super long sets with the guy just to get a feel for everything, but what a struggle. Doesn't help I haven't been practicing on Pot's weight much.

I actually don't mind the matchup. What in particular were you having trouble with?

[Ben Reed]

Which of May's moves are most likely to clash besides her P's, 2H, and j2H? The reason I ask is I want to understand what ranges she's most likely to trigger Danger Time at so that I can try and come up with optimized, practical combos. Just kinda inspired since Danger Time bugs me a lot less than it does some other people.

EDIT: Almost forgot, suggest me some other characters' moves that I should try and clash with so that I can set 'em up in the lab. Stuff like Potemkin's jD is easy to remember, but I'm not quite sure about some other characters.

[AngryBlack]

Hi guys, it's me again ahah

Could someone pls tell me what is the most efficient way to punish a whiff/guarded DP from Ky, Sol or even Chipp ? Thanks guys

Well on ky and sol i like to backdash on there wake and if they reversal I usually go with hitting dust. May dust has a hitbox behind her also so even if sol goes behind u it hits if u time it right. Dust is like her best no meter punish imo. If u got 50 percent tension ideal u would want to hit a fully charge 6h rc 5d its a easy combo that does a good amount of damage. I use that in general when the opponent is left wide open.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vashimus]

I actually don't mind the matchup. What in particular were you having trouble with?

 

Playing the spacing game just ends up with him hammerfalling through, flicking my dolphins or me getting slide-headed. Then I get frustrated and go in. Sometimes it goes well and I'm feeling myself, but others, he instant-blocks and I get grabbed, or he backdashes out of my pressure on wakeup, and either grabs or 6Ps depending on what I did.

 

I'm guessing I should just rush him down constantly, since he was just content just sitting there blocking, even if I OHK'd him for it.

[Austin_QED]

Punishing baited and blocked DP is pretty easy. On Sol, Ky, and Chipp you can do c.S > whatever for a basic punish. Example:

running cS > 2D > [4]6S or [4]6H > optional RC extension

With more time to gain more run momentum, you can do:

running cS > 5H > 2D > [4]6S or [4]6H > optional RC extension

You can also punish with 5D, but the timing may require a little more practice. Don't be afraid to wait, though; the landing recovery on DPs is pretty significant in this game. There's no DPs really like Ken's LP Shoryuken in SF4, with blink-and-you'll-miss-it awkward punishes. Take your time and do it right.

If you punish with 5D, here's some basic punishes:

(midscreen) 5D > homing jump > jH > jH > jS > jH > jD > djS > djH > djD > Ensenga

(corner) 5D > homing dash > cS > 6P > 5H > cS > 2D > [4]6S or [4]6H or Applause for oki

Ideally you have plenty of time to ground-hit the opponent, but if you air-hit them from an early punish (understandable), you can do an air combo into Ensenga instead like so:

cS > jS > jH > jD > djH > djD > Ensenga

On a REALLY big miss (say a whiffed Grand Viper), if you're close enough, soon enough, you can punish with 6[H] > [4]6H for even more damage.

midscreen: 6[H] > [4]6H > RC > air dash jH > jS > jH > jD > djH > djD > Ensenga

corner: (I'll let someone else handle this, I need to work on these myself)

When in doubt, just do a cS > 2D > etc combo on a blocked DP. You should have plenty of time to react. Go into the lab, program the dummy to jump vertically, DP, then hold down-back to block. No matter how dumb/tedious it seems, practice this from time to time when you're bored in the lab. DPs are big opportunities for damage, so you need to punish as big as you can.

 

I've been able to score a "counter" hit on the whiffed DP's by just jumping in the air after them and hitting jump dust into a follow up combo.