[Xrd] Zato - General discussion and changes list

[Pen_Ninja]

Any indication on how much Eddie meter gets used by puddle summon?

[Bossguy]

Those changes don't seem that bad. An extra second is much better than I was expecting.

@Pen_Ninja: I'm guessing it'll take as much as -HS-. This is probably my least favorite change out of them all, but oh well.

[Rasec]

That #R j.K returning? gdlk. 

[comoesa]

Weird about Latiff using pad when he  plays C,Viper on stick. Well, Zato doesn't need to do any twitch like movements like sj instant burnkicks so I guess that explains it.

[Starfire]

Going from 6 to 7 seconds of shadow cooldown doesn't sound that bad, I was afraid it would be worse. It does remove the unblockable loops, unless it's only when the shadow is hit, but those really needed to go anyway. With 7 seconds, I think you should still be able to meaty into blockstring summon after 1 hit SG into dust (though the dust animation might be one of those periods when the shadow doesn't recharge now), which is worse than before but still decent.

BTL YRC hurts, but it was pretty ridiculous before. I guess it's back to FD jumping to escape.

I think I read from some japanese post that puddle summon consumes a shadow P's worth of gauge, but I don't know for sure.

Unblockable damage reduction seems fair, 80% doesn't sound too bad.

And we even got some buffs! Especially j.K was kinda unexpected. I think Zato can survive these nerfs without becoming garbage, but maybe he won't be number 1 anymore.

[president]

BTL YRC hurts, but it was pretty ridiculous before. I guess it's back to FD jumping to escape.

 

A move that has no defensive purpose anyway since it comes with really awful hurtbox extensions during its long startup (honestly can't figure out how you compare it to FD jumping) and forces you to spend 25% to even get out of it without straight up dying. I've never seen something this ridiculous.

 

Zato doesn't need to do any twitch like movements like sj instant burnkicks so I guess that explains it.

 

I learn new things every day in here. 

[Starfire]

A move that has no defensive purpose anyway since it comes with really awful hurtbox extensions during its long startup (honestly can't figure out how you compare it to FD jumping) and forces you to spend 25% to even get out of it without straight up dying. I've never seen something this ridiculous.

 

BTL has what, 13 frames of startup before it's fully invincible. It's not that impossible to get gaps that long against many characters, especially with FD pushback or IB. It's not directly comparable to FD jumping in the sense that you need a much bigger gap and take a bigger risk because of the CH, but the reward is also bigger. FD jumping doesn't guarantee getting out of pressure safely. I'm not suggesting that you mash BTL during blockstrings, but I think it's a decent option if the enemy gets pushed back a bit and needs to get back in.

 

If you do manage to get underground and have the YRC, I think you can often get into a decent position, even if you started in the corner. And obviously, don't do it defensively without YRC.

 

Maybe it's just that the people I've been playing against don't know how to keep me from abusing it, but I've certainly gotten some mileage out of it defensively.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Starfire

[Mr Milky]

You can't really abuse BL YRC against normals with lots of active frames that cover a lot of space. Zato's 5HS, Faust's 2K, Ramlethal's 2KK and similar stuff all counters it fairly well at least from my experience. 

 

 

 

WARNING! Salty tears below:

Zato was definitely a top tier but those nerfs are a complete overkill. Especially if you compare them to ones received by Faust or Sol. I would like to be as optimistic as some of you guys but it really seems as if every aspect of his game was dumbed down significantly.

Longer Eddie recovery and it's bigger costs hurts. It obviously nerfs Zato's neutral game. He won't be able to apply pressure for as long, he won't be able to set up an unblockable if he gets a hit/command grab later on, not being able to recover Eddie with Shadow Gallery into D combos is huge.

The damage nerf to a D drill huts a lot too since it was pretty much his most reliable way to get big damage trough both combos and unblockable setups.

On top of all that: Blitz Shield tweak huts him almost as hard as it does Millia, especially in the corner.

For as much as it takes to get good at him he may as well become useless.

[Ryd']

Uh...unless I've missed something, Zato only has to spend extra Eddie meter on a summon from a puddle; I haven't seen anything about increasing Eddie's meter costs on anything else.  Increased recovery time should only be applicable if Eddie is killed, not if you burn through his meter; even then, 1 extra second shouldn't be too bad.  His present combos should be intact, as there's been no mention of any nerfs that would impact them unless you routinely only just manage to squeeze an unblockable in after summoning from a puddle.  The unblockables needed some adjusting because 170~180 base is a bit much for what is essentially free damage, and the potential in loops is ridiculous.  For what it's worth, he's not the only one losing damage, so it should be fine as long as they don't overlook anything.

 

The shield buff shouldn't really affect Zato much since reject on projectiles only triggers at point-blank, and you usually send Eddie in with Mawaru from outside of throw range to pin them down for your mixup; you can't shield while in block stun, so as long as you aren't riding Eddie's ass, it shouldn't be a problem in oki situations.  Opponent should still have to guess high/low first if they're going to try to shield unblockables, so it's not a guaranteed solution like it is with I-No's vCL YRC bullshit.

 

Zato's taking some hits, yes, but they're warranted, and nothing thus far seems like it'll be enough to make Zato garbage.  Also keep in mind that this is only the first test, and there are generally several before changes are finalized; no need to cry about the sky falling yet.

[Mr Milky]

 

 

Increased recovery time should only be applicable if Eddie is killed

I hope that's the case since his current D Drill-Shadow Gallery combos are barely long enough to give him another Eddy after the knockdown. But then again, even if it's not the case people may find other combos, I guess.

 

 

 

The shield buff shouldn't really affect Zato much since reject on projectiles only triggers at point-blank

Is it really just a normal throw range? Like, does it affect meaty S drill? How does it fare with unblockable?

 

The loop potential was idiotic, yes, but I wouldn't call unblockables "free damage". They are more like a damage extension that you get after landing a command grab/a hit in a corner with Eddie out.

 

And how exactly does hittable puddle work? Will it consume the attack? Will hitting it cause any hitstop? If you put Eddie on top of a puddle and hit them, will both disappear?

[Starfire]

I hope that's the case since his current D Drill-Shadow Gallery combos are barely long enough to give him another Eddy after the knockdown. But then again, even if it's not the case people may find other combos, I guess.

 

I guess you might have to extend the Shadow Gallery combo with a meaty 22S into a blockstring summon, but that's still pretty decent.

[Ryd']

Blitz Shield is currently reported to only throw you into reject status if you're at range 0 when the projectile gets shielded.  I-No's vCL gets wrecked, but Ky can 2D > CSE without getting blown up.  I dare say most of Zato's stuff will be unaffected.  Millia will suffer more from this because a lot of her setups place her really close to the opponent while they're blocking a disc; it's probably things like her roll, fast fall, and IAD crossups that are getting her blown up by shields.  Venom might suffer from a couple of his setups where he similarly is right behind a ball.  The spacing that Mawaru is typically used in should make it safe against shielding.  Unblockables are risky to shield because a successful shield requires the correct initial high/low read, and guessing wrong means you pay meter to get hit.  A safer option against unblockables for about the same base meter cost should be backdash~YRC~FD.

[wirestyle22]

Are all of Eddie's attacks considered projectiles as far as blitz shield is concerned?

[Ryd']

Should be, as the shield doesn't do anything other than refund meter on successful shield of Eddie's attacks.  Low projectiles still have to be shielded low, so the unblockables will require that initial read if anyone tries it in the update - assuming the opponent finds it worth it to gamble meter on a coin toss.  However, the drill doesn't go away when stuff happens to Zato, and shielding the first hit early still leaves enough active frames in the drill for the last two hits.  I'm not completely sure how it'll all play out, but Zato may not be punishable on a successful reject anyway.

[2312123131]

My question has nothing to do with patch.

Why don't Ogawa and other Zato players do command/normal throw>RC>SG loop into unblockable in corner?

50 tension is not that much for 180-200 dmg from loop and 150-180 from unblockable. And it's not that hard in terms of timing and execution.

[Shin Masta Lv1]

My question has nothing to do with patch.

Why don't Ogawa and other Zato players do command/normal throw>RC>SG loop into unblockable in corner?

50 tension is not that much for 180-200 dmg from loop and 150-180 from unblockable. And it's not that hard in terms of timing and execution.

Well my reason is that there is no notation for any combos really and ive been struggling to find some So I can learn his combos.

[Ryd']

My question has nothing to do with patch.

Why don't Ogawa and other Zato players do command/normal throw>RC>SG loop into unblockable in corner?

50 tension is not that much for 180-200 dmg from loop and 150-180 from unblockable. And it's not that hard in terms of timing and execution.

 

I can't speak for Ogawa, but just looking at videos, he tends to burn a lot of meter in neutral and on defensive options, which is understandable since Zato really wants to be on offense.  For most of his command throws in the corner, Eddie is either already out and it goes straight into the unblockable, or Eddie is on cooldown and Damned Fang's lengthy animation is used to buy time.  The damage on the setup is nice, but the meter cost is not insignificant, and given the nature of Zato's flow over the course of a match, it isn't likely to be too often that you manage to get everything to line up for that (meter, Eddie, corner).

[2312123131]

I'm really learning a lot here. Thanks Renly, Starfire and Ryd'.

One more question:

You push your blocking opponent from midscreen to corner.

What's the advanatge of applying pressure with ed.P and 22HS instead of ed.K?

Why do some Zato players use sequences like this:

- 2P, 2K, ed.P, 2P, 2S, ed.P, 22HS

- ed.K, 2P, 2S, ed.P, 22HS

You end up pretty far from your target. And the only option left is to unsummon Eddie. But what's the point in these blockstrings if there are no mixups to break your opponent's guard and you can't continue your pressure (since you are too far).

There is almost no Eddie meter economy (2 x ed.P + some time = ed.K).

Same goes to 2P, 2K, ed.P, 66, 2P, 2K, ed.P exept you still are close to your target.

Using ed.K on the other hand gives you flight mixup and command throw options.

So what's the point?

[Ryd']

The main advantage I see in -p- strings that don't sandwich is that you can create small gaps that your opponent may try to escape/tag Eddie, potentially netting you a knockdown - basically giving them enough rope to hang themselves with. Mawaru pressure gives you fewer gaps and burns through Eddie faster, so you don't get as many opportunities to open them up through frame traps. Variety in general makes your pressure harder to deal with since your opponent will have to guess the best way to deal with what might come next. If you always do Mawaru, it gives them that much less to think about.

[Bossguy]

Thanks, that's really helpful even if I didn't ask the question, haha.

[president]

Relying on variaty to open someone up is basically betting on the opponent being inexperienced. You can't just run -P- blockstrings to give someone "enough rope to hang them with" if there's no actual reason to get hit behind it. Running 2S -P- 22H on block is about getting a safe unsummon at long range without Eddie dying for it, mostly when you don't have enough meter or the spacing to unsummon off a Nobiru instead.

 

Example; Millia backdashes whatever you're doing but ends up having to block a mawaru anyway. What are you gonna do at this range, where she's out of Nobiru range and definitely going to punish Zato for trying to dash up from full screen? You either lock her down to close the distance with something like -P- 22H -P- 2S -K- (note that there is no mixup involved and it's basically a huge waste of Eddie bar just to close the distance) or you unsummon off that 22H (meanwhile walking Eddie out of jab range) and reset.

 

-P- blockstrings at close range are obviously godlike for the repeating 50/50. Doesn't matter if it's the same thing and your opponent can focus on reacting to only those two things if it's alternating between a 7F low and a 6F commandgrab. Knowing it's coming doesn't help with Millia either.

[2312123131]

-P- blockstrings at close range are obviously godlike for the repeating 50/50. Doesn't matter if it's the same thing and your opponent can focus on reacting to only those two things if it's alternating between a 7F low and a 6F commandgrab. Knowing it's coming doesn't help with Millia either.

Are you talking about corner and sandwitch situations? Because I can't see a way to be in throw range after 2 iterations of [2P, 2K,-P-] on midscreen, especially if opponent uses FD or IB. Or there is some trick?

[Ryd']

Relying on variaty to open someone up is basically betting on the opponent being inexperienced. You can't just run -P- blockstrings to give someone "enough rope to hang them with" if there's no actual reason to get hit behind it.

 

I was commenting on using -P- in strings as opposed to defaulting Mawaru, as was asked:

 

Same goes to 2P, 2K, ed.P, 66, 2P, 2K, ed.P exept you still are close to your target.

Using ed.K on the other hand gives you flight mixup and command throw options.

So what's the point?

 

If variety couldn't open people up with any kind of regularity, characters that primarily rely on heavy pressure and frame traps would never be viable.  Utilizing -P- gives you a lot more control over your strings and more opportunities to open someone up per Eddie summon.  Mawaru makes you pay a fat chunk of Eddie's meter in exchange for (typically) a single mixup attempt and a good bit of corner carry while your opponent is completely locked down for its duration.  This is good in some situations, but less desirable in others.  People don't like being made to hold still and everyone will eventually try to escape from pressure unless they have reason to not care (massive life lead and 3 seconds on the clock, etc).  Especially in GG, where it won't end unless you take action and dying from chip is a thing.

 

Zato in particular makes people really antsy to escape because getting opened up can lead to very bad things™, and the payoff for a random poke (Eddie unsummoned or killed) can be a lot more substantial than it is against any other character.  No player is perfect, and even those at the top (just from the last few videos I've watched: Ogawa, Sanma, Koichi, Sharon, etc...) will still make bad calls and get hit for doing something they shouldn't have attempted.  For Zato, the flexibility of -P- (and Nobiru) lets you create more opportunities for the opponent to drop their defense and try something, which you can typically capitalize on.  The threat of Zato's mixup already gives people incentive to try to escape; you don't have to do much to make them not want to sit in his pressure.  At the same time, being predictable with your strings makes you easier to IB and lets your opponent know when they should DAA/backdash/reversal/poke/burst/etc., and you really don't want that. 

 

Just as an example, look at the 2P 2K -P- string.  Do it once and dash up (as is listed in the quote), and your opponent will probably block under the threat of getting tagged by a poke unless you get into throw range.  If someone gets too patient in dealing with that because, as you say, they have no reason to risk getting hit, then they might block 2P 2K and let you slip Eddie behind them and -P- or -S- in their complacency; suddenly they're in a much worse position.  Next time 2P 2K happens you could start to move Eddie forward and then let Nobiru rip.  This is all theorycrafting, but it's the kind of thing that can happen in a match.  Mixups aren't the only way to open someone up; letting them think they know what's going to come next and then doing something else can be just as effective as a high/low/throw situation, and Zato is fairly unique in the extent to which he can get inside the opponent's head like that.

[wirestyle22]

Why do some Zato players use sequences like this:

- 2P, 2K, ed.P, 2P, 2S, ed.P, 22HS

- ed.K, 2P, 2S, ed.P, 22HS

You end up pretty far from your target. And the only option left is to unsummon Eddie. But what's the point in these blockstrings if there are no mixups to break your opponent's guard and you can't continue your pressure (since you are too far).

 

I use -P- to stagger pressure (this is probably 75% of the damage I deal outside of corner shenanigans) and to set-up damned fang mix-up. Match-up plays an important role in deciding which combos to use--like you want Potemkin away from you for instance. I find neutral to be much harder than figuring out which blockstrings to use. Ultimately you just want to make sure you can end your pressure into drill and that opens up so many options: RC to maintain momentum > Eddie summon on drill puddle into whatever > Safe unsummon to conserve meter > etc. Zato is one of the most free form characters I've ever played. Once you figure out his spacing you can really go with the flow of the match and just abuse people when you force them to be defensive. His neutral is hard, but the more time I have to grind it out the better I'll be.

 

If anyone wants to play some matches I'm in NJ. I have 120 down 35 up and tri-state is pretty much 2 frame delay across the board from what I've seen. I'd appreciate any help the more advanced players in this forum could offer. PSN is wirestyle22

[Pichy]

1.1 Zato secret changes

- JK bigger hitbox

 

I have no problem with any nerfs whatsoever if this is the #R hitbox.