[Xrd] Zato - General discussion and changes list

[president]

I play Zato like a complete cripple, but I couldn't get a "proper" way to work so I just stuck with it. I use standard layout and have index for P, middle for K, ring for S, pinky for H and thumb for D and now stuff gets really awkward when I have to hold dust during stuff. I think you can imagine what it looks like when you try to hold dust with your thumb and then go for P and H. I remember a point where this caused actual pain to my hand after sessions (really distant button layout on my stick made it worse) but now it got pretty natural. If I had to give advice I would definitely recommend using thumb for P instead. 

[wirestyle22]

P=Thumb

K=Index Finger

S=Middle Finger

H=Ring Finger

D=Pinky

 

I think this is naturally what you would do with the way the standard button layout is made.

[Karsticles]

I didn't want to post this in the video thread, since it seems more like a "videos of good players" thread. 

 

Here is a recording of some of my matches at a friend's house last night:
http://www.twitch.tv/skillzilla81/b/637052853

If Zato is playing, it's me.  I learned that my opponent never blocks on oki, but it takes me a while to adjust to really take advantage of that.  I watched Ogawa matches last night, and I noticed that he does drill on Oki before the -S- with Eddie, so I am going to start doing that for better pressure.

Around 15 minutes in I start playing a bit smarter, but it's all a work in progress.  I pull off some new air combos, neglect some corner follow-ups I should get off of a drill, crumple in the corner consistently, still don't use Eddie until I get a knockdown (my biggest weakness, but it's my next thing I'm going to work on), and a bunch of other stuff, but I think I've definitely made a lot of progress.

Around the 1:20 mark is where I start getting better at using anti-airs.

 

Feedback is welcome.

[felirx]

Here are a few pointers.

 

Too much drilling neutral without Shadow cover. Almost every second move you do is a Drill. This works on this level, but any good player will call them out and just kill you with airdashes and various other punishes. Leos airdash j.K for example is perfect for going over drills.

 

You autopilot the same blockstring / combo every time and it only sort of works because your opponent is not blocking low. Instead try various things. For example, 5p2k summon into -p- let's you summon relatively safely. Mix this up with 5p2k S-Drill or 2s. Sometimes you can even go for a 5p2k into Damned Fange. 5P 5H is a frametrap and you can drill or summon from any 5H hit to add to mindgames. Everytime you get a close 2p/5p hit, you should be aiming to go for a 2D instead of the 5H autopilot because 5H will not combo (except maybe against crouching).

At times you got an airdashing hit j.SH and then autopilot to the same dial'in combo that does not work. Instead go for a short gatling in to 2D to get a knockdown. Even as simple as something like 5p2d is enough. Like Mr. Biscuits says, secure the knockdown.

 

The next step is to learn to use your shadow in pressure (and in general). There are many times you get your opponent blocking a move like 2S and the shadow is just doing Nobiru Nobiru Nobiru behind you. You NEED to learn to move him and get him to hit the opponent with your -S-, -P- or even -K-. This is the absolute basics of Eddie play and it's critical to learn. Hit the training mode and just try to learn very basic shadow and Eddie play. For example, easy to start with would be -K- and then on the final hit of -K- you do 5p5k5s and release -K- again. Loop this until your meter is empty or unsummon before Shadow dies. Once you have the timing down on this, you will hopefully understand a bit better how the general flow of Shadow pressure works. The idea behind this loop is to get you comfortable holding buttons, releasing the right button and getting used to how much time you have during -K- to move.

 

Next you will want to learn mixups as soon as your opponent start to actually block stuff. Start with the basic jumping fuzzy outlined in Presidents guide. Then learn 2k -p- Damned Fang sandwitch and other ways you can effectively get Damned Fang from -p-. This will already get you pretty far. It has been said that Eddie is a grappler and for a good reason. The reward from hitting Dawned Fang while your shadow is out is MASSIVE since you can go for a -D- unblockable followup once you learn the timing.

 

At times your play seems really random. For example in the Millia games around 25, you get a drill knockdown in the corner and instead airdash back. You should be pressuring Millia every time you get an advantage like this. Always go for Oki, especially against characters like Millia. If your shadow is dead and you get a knockdown on your opponent, you can run a very basic S drill dash 5p5H far drill time waster for example to buy you... time.

[Antihero11]

^ Excellent advice above. How long have you been playing Zato/Eddie for felirx?

Even though it wasn't my video, I found it helpful. Definitely integrate "proper shadow pressure". One thing Ogawa does which I copied is:

knockdown > -K- > 2P > 2K > 2S > -K- > Dash 2P > 2D > Unsummon.

Doesn't mix them up at all, but it's good for getting used to shadow pressure and corner carry. Once you can do that, start incorporating J.k and empty jumps. And eventually Damned Fang. Be careful with DF though. My pressure needs a lot of work, so I keep getting thrown out of DF. In order to prevent that, you need to use Shadow P pressure for frame traps. Or simply use DF on the first active frame after Mawaru (Shadow K). Hope that makes sense.

Personally, Zato is much harder to learn in neutral than he is with Oki/pressure. His Oki/pressure game will get you far, but you need to become an expert at neutral to really take Zato to the next level. From what I've observed, You need to master both drills, controlling Eddie and abusing Nobiru, and finally flight and break the law to keep Zato from blocking so Eddie stays alive. Once Eddie gets close enough, make sure you get in and drill or hit them with an aerial attack. That way he won't get killed by a low attack. Or... if he does, at least you get a knockdown to capitalize on.

Finally, the most useful and somewhat "cheap" way to summon Eddie safely is by simply going into drill from a pressure string, then YRC the drill, and puddle summon into Nobiru. If done correctly, I believe they can't attack Eddie due to YRC, and it gives you free pressure. Very cheap, but costs 25 tension.



 

[Karsticles]

Thank you for the advice. I think, if you watched later in the video, you would see me do a few of those things. Most of it is very applicable, though. I will work on it. This is my first GG game.

[Fame96]

Hello everybody. I didn't see a critique thread around but i was hoping to get some tips on improving my gameplay. Here are two sets from my recent netplay matches.

VS Sin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3yO06TFn3Y

VS Elphelt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaRzq3TUWh0

[Antihero11]

I just wanted to point out that Zato's mawaru mixups are much easier to perform than they seem. For example, let's look at this one:


-K-, dash jump j.K JC, j.S (breaks guard), j.H > -K- > 5D > 6P > -D- > 2H > 22S > Unblockable


From intuitively looking at the combo, it would seem you need to hold K + S + H at the same time, then release K for the follow-up Mawaru. I had difficulty negative edging three buttons at once. But every single one of Zato's combos can be done by simply negative edging with two buttons. Because little Eddie's animation times last so long, it gives you more time to push buttons and release without worrying about him performing an unwanted attack. (I know most Zato mains are aware of this, I just wanted to point it out for new players and specifically mention the Mawaru mixup.)

So in this combo, you can j.K JC > j.S > j.H, then quickly press and release K. So you only need to hold H and K at the same time. As opposed to all three. This makes it much easier to hit confirm.

Sorry if this is extremely unclear, I find it difficult to talk about negative edging via dialogue. Let me know what you guys think.









 

[Bossguy]

Hello everybody. I didn't see a critique thread around but i was hoping to get some tips on improving my gameplay. Here are two sets from my recent netplay matches.

VS Sin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3yO06TFn3Y

VS Elphelt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaRzq3TUWh0

I am not a good Zato by any stretch of the imagination, however, here are a couple things I noticed in your gameplay that you did consistently and got punished for:

1. Spamming drills in neutral. Later in the matches with Marvisto he realized what you were doing and countered it. Drills are very risky in the neutal wiithout your shadow out! Use more normals.

2. Keeping an eye on your shadow gauge. A couple times you tried to unsommon your shadow, but since the gauge was depleted you got a 6H instead. Marvisto punished you.

3. Dead angling. I know that Elphelt's pressure is difficult to get out of, but you resorted to dead angle too many times. The Elphelt baited you and you lost fifty meter as well as a good chunk of your life.

4. Using 2H to poke out of pressure. While this worked in some cases, this is not a good idea. 2P is a much safer option.

Also, I watched some of Jonio's stream and BTL YRC is indeed still there in 1.1. Phew.

[Fame96]

I am not a good Zato by any stretch of the imagination, however, here are a couple things I noticed in your gameplay that you did consistently and got punished for:

1. Spamming drills in neutral. Later in the matches with Marvisto he realized what you were doing and countered it. Drills are very risky in the neutal wiithout your shadow out! Use more normals.

2. Keeping an eye on your shadow gauge. A couple times you tried to unsommon your shadow, but since the gauge was depleted you got a 6H instead. Marvisto punished you.

3. Dead angling. I know that Elphelt's pressure is difficult to get out of, but you resorted to dead angle too many times. The Elphelt baited you and you lost fifty meter as well as a good chunk of your life.

4. Using 2H to poke out of pressure. While this worked in some cases, this is not a good idea. 2P is a much safer option.

Also, I watched some of Jonio's stream and BTL YRC is indeed still there in 1.1. Phew.

I see. Thanks for the advice. I'll be sure to be more careful.

[Antihero11]

I'm having trouble summoning Eddie in neutral. It's relatively easy to summon him during a blockstring. But I want to learn when to summon in neutral so I can improve my neutral game. People say you need to summon him before drills since drills aren't safe without Eddie out.

So when should I summon him? Only fullscreen? After knockdown and blockstrings go without saying. I feel it's heavily dependent on MU.

 

[Starfire]

I'm having trouble summoning Eddie in neutral. It's relatively easy to summon him during a blockstring. But I want to learn when to summon in neutral so I can improve my neutral game. People say you need to summon him before drills since drills aren't safe without Eddie out.

So when should I summon him? Only fullscreen? After knockdown and blockstrings go without saying. I feel it's heavily dependent on MU.

Whenever you can get away with it!

If you have room or if you can create it with e.g. a back airdash, you can H summon and try to react. If you're summoning in a riskier position (within iad range, opponent jumping in etc.) you can go for S summon to get the fastest possible Nobiru which can lead to juicy counterhits. Nobiru also has a big hurtbox so it also covers you from attacks if it has enough time to come out.

If you have meter, you can also try a neutral YRC, BTL YRC or even a drill YRC to get the summon out more safely and to be able to react with it during the time stop. It's extremely hard to punish BTL YRC into summon unless you're very close to the opponent.

And of course it's matchup dependent as well. Some characters can punish you easier and others have good tools for handling the shadow at range.

[felirx]

Also, just because drills are not fully safe without shadow, it does not mean you should never drill without him. In some matchups like Axl, one of the neutral strategies is to try to get him to step on a drill for that knockdown. It's quite hard to summon safely against a strong Axl player. Just don't be predictable and spam them all the time.

[president]

I really don't like this talk about how solo Zato drills are unsafe. If we're going by that logic being on the screen as solo Zato is already unsafe. I've lost enough rounds by getting my max range normals countersweeped that I started viewing drills as one of the safest things you can do in neutral; as Zato by himself you don't really have a lot of buttons in this game's neutral and the fact that you can control quite some space without any hurtbox involved is a pretty big deal. AC had 22H FRC which was so safe you could throw it around mindlessly and that got even stronger in Xrd. When people would approach you past the far drill you'd just AA or whatever them after the FRC and the hitbox of the drill didn't even matter at that point; in Xrd you can do the same thing (With close drill as well) and get the slowdown to go with it but as a tradeoff you have to do it more reaction based than just hitting that FRC anyway, i.e. throw out a drill against Venom and if you see him jump you FRC to mess him up, if you confirm the drill actually doing something (CH ballset, going on block, being safe because he backdashes etc) you let it rip. Not representing the drills is not even an option as most matchups start from there; without drills any Venom will abuse free ground ballsets, Leo will flail normals around etc and you reached a point where you're not even allowed to play. 

[Antihero11]

Thank you president. I agree 100%. One simple strategy that has worked for me when you push someone to the corner is to:

1) Setup medium drill.
2) 2S or Anti-air depending on what they do.
3) Summon Eddie or heavy drill if they keep blocking.

It can create some mind games and keep people in the corner if you're good with prediction.




 

[Fame96]

Hello everybody. I got some more of my gameplay from recently. It's a bit rough but please bare with me.

Vs Ram: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeYpE4cuwhU

[Renly]

I win with just drill zoning. I'm level 16-17 and have no combos or set ups because I'm lazy and I just want to play. Looking at other Zato's doing cool shit makes me jelly.

[Bossguy]

Stuff

Yeah, I wasn't trying to say that drills shouldn't be used without the shadow, I was merely stating that they can be unsafe if you become predictable with them. Probably should have phrased my comment better.

[Bossguy]

I was able to play at an arcade while I was on a trip to Japan, and Zato seems pretty much unchanged. Puddle summon takes an extremely negligible amount of meter. I didn't notice anything different with his j.k. The unblockable doesn't seem to be of as much use, but damage seems to still be good, but a little less. The shadow takes longer to recharge after a drill, I think. Forgot to use his 6k overhead, so I don't know if the stagger increase is still present. I think that Zato is still a very good character.

[Ryd']

Of course he is.  They reverted the significant nerfs from the location tests (additional recovery when Eddie is killed, BtL YRC), so all he really lost was a bit of damage and the setups for chaining unblockables that nobody used.  He's largely unchanged, so there's no reason to expect him to have become noticeably worse.

[Renly]

I noticed Ogawa not going for unblockables and instead opts to unsummon each time.

[Starfire]

I heard that the japanese players don't like the fact that opponents can burst from the unblockable to force neutral with the nerfed shadow recovery, plus that the damage reward is slightly less. They prefer controlling the match with a fresh resummon instead, which is kinda similar to Millia in a way.

I wonder if this means that we'll start seeing something like -P-, SG (1), -S-, SG (2), wallslump, 5D6, unsummon, 5P, 2K, 22S, resummon off the first mixup eventually to maximize damage before unsummoning.

[Antihero11]

Hello all,

I have finally begun to get used to Zato's neutral game. Far from mastering it, but finding safe times to summon Eddie and defend with nobiru. I have an extremely difficult time safely summoning against Faust, unless it's in a blockstring, any advice?

I also have a hard time advancing with Eddie if my opponent stays back and plays campy, or attempts to outzone me, so any tips on that would be much appreciated too.



 

[Starfire]

Faust is a difficult matchup to play correctly IMO. Some things you can try are summoning at full screen and then using -H- to navigate the shadow past items, and trying to get a drill puddle behind Faust and then doing a puddle summon and poking Faust in the back with the shadow.

Against camping opponents I would suggest using a combination of far drills, -P- to poke from range and -H- to dodge attempts to destroy the shadow. You can also iad j.S or iad SG with Zato if you're feeling gutsy, but that involves more risk. Even a whiffed SG is surprisingly hard to punish if you can poke with the shadow to cover your recovery. If the opponent is throwing projectiles like Gun Flame from range you can try negating the projectile with a drill and then punishing the recovery with the shadow.

[huber]

I'm no cyber athlete but I think the key to beating Faust is reminding yourself not to take the match full screen.  I know I have the habit of trying to create a lot of space so I can summon, and this is what Faust wants.  Remember that at the beginning of the round.  Don't let Faust get that space.

 

Also we saw a Bedman blitz Ogawa's unblockable in the 3v3.  More reversal blitz shields are happening in 1.1 in general so it's going to be an issue for unblockable more than it was before.  I heard using YRC is still useful to play around it because of some dumb invul mechanics. 

 

Finding the best resummons will be the homework for now.  I think 2D as your low starter is good again like it used to be since converting into 5D isn't as crucial.  Good low starter and it might just be me but blocking a Zato that uses 2D as a low and not just 5K/2K changes the rhythm a bit making it even more challenging to block.