[Xrd] Bedman Gameplay Discussion

[Tiamat]

2 hours ago, Vizer-1 said:

Good stuff! Do these setups lose to wakeup reversals? On that note, how do you deal with people that do lots of wakeup reversals? Does Bedman have great safe oki setups, or do you just have to guess and give up oki?

What's the whiffed j,H for in these setups?

 

These setups do lose to wakeup reversals.  They will have to input their DP in the correct direction to hit you unless it's Leo's DP.  The crossup version is wakeup throwable so that's something anyone could do (unless their throw range is really bad maybe?).  The front version isn't safe from DP if you do the 2K, but you could just land from the j.H whiff and block immediately and you'd be safe.

Whiffed j.H is to make you land faster.  This is also why j.H is burst and DAA safe (except Ram's since it's fastest in the game).  Once it starts whiffing you drop like a rock (as long as you weren't dashing upward).  Using FD is another way to land faster but it costs meter so I don't think it's worth it for this particular setup.

Dealing with people who do a lot of wakeup reversals:

From the 236S knockdown you can do safejumps with 981 j.K/j.S or forward superjump 82 j.K/j.S.  You have to time it based on their wakeup speed.  If don't know their wakeup speed you need to look here: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=GGXRD/System_Data and look for face up wakeup speed.  My advice is to memorize the fastest wakeup speeds and the slowest ones then just lump everyone else in the middle so it's not too much to remember.  236S, 236H, and ground/air throw knockdowns are all face up, the only face down knockdown you have is 2D.  

From a 236H knockdown you can bait DPs a couple ways.  You can 214H then jump forward and air FD.  It costs a significant amount of meter to air FD a DP but jumping toward them probbably tempts them more than other baits.  You can also 214H and just stand outside their DP range so they won't do it then pressure from the blocked 214H.  You can also 214H then walk forward and stand just outside grab range, then backdash right when you're about to get hit by their wakeup DP.  This is a good hard bait because they won't be able to RC if you backdash and you'll have time to punish normal DP type moves like sol's VV.  You could also just not do the 214H and go for a safejump.  You can also safejump from 2D and throw but what you can do would change based on their wakeup speed.  I think you can't safejump from air throw because the knockdown doesn't give you enough time.

 

[Tiamat]

1 hour ago, SupaSage69 said:

Hey I've been trying to learn some of the air combos for bedman but I can never property connect after I float, any training tips I could use in the lab?

 

What's an example combo of something you're having trouble with?

[Vizer-1]

8 hours ago, Tiamat said:

 

These setups do lose to wakeup reversals.  They will have to input their DP in the correct direction to hit you unless it's Leo's DP.  The crossup version is wakeup throwable so that's something anyone could do (unless their throw range is really bad maybe?).  The front version isn't safe from DP if you do the 2K, but you could just land from the j.H whiff and block immediately and you'd be safe.

Whiffed j.H is to make you land faster.  This is also why j.H is burst and DAA safe (except Ram's since it's fastest in the game).  Once it starts whiffing you drop like a rock (as long as you weren't dashing upward).  Using FD is another way to land faster but it costs meter so I don't think it's worth it for this particular setup.

Dealing with people who do a lot of wakeup reversals:

From the 236S knockdown you can do safejumps with 981 j.K/j.S or forward superjump 82 j.K/j.S.  You have to time it based on their wakeup speed.  If don't know their wakeup speed you need to look here: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=GGXRD/System_Data and look for face up wakeup speed.  My advice is to memorize the fastest wakeup speeds and the slowest ones then just lump everyone else in the middle so it's not too much to remember.  236S, 236H, and ground/air throw knockdowns are all face up, the only face down knockdown you have is 2D.  

From a 236H knockdown you can bait DPs a couple ways.  You can 214H then jump forward and air FD.  It costs a significant amount of meter to air FD a DP but jumping toward them probbably tempts them more than other baits.  You can also 214H and just stand outside their DP range so they won't do it then pressure from the blocked 214H.  You can also 214H then walk forward and stand just outside grab range, then backdash right when you're about to get hit by their wakeup DP.  This is a good hard bait because they won't be able to RC if you backdash and you'll have time to punish normal DP type moves like sol's VV.  You could also just not do the 214H and go for a safejump.  You can also safejump from 2D and throw but what you can do would change based on their wakeup speed.  I think you can't safejump from air throw because the knockdown doesn't give you enough time.

 

Thanks, that helps a lot.

[Tiamat]

29 minutes ago, Vizer-1 said:

Thanks, that helps a lot.

No problem.  It's good to see more activity since this board doesn't get a lot of posts.

[SupaSage69]

10 hours ago, Tiamat said:

What's an example combo of something you're having trouble with?

 

1H > j.S > j.3S > 236H > land 2P > c.S > 236H

[Tiamat]

12 minutes ago, SupaSage69 said:

 

 

1H > j.S > j.3S > 236H > land 2P > c.S > 236H

On potemkin I guess?  I was dropping this one sometimes over the weekend.  :P  I don't think it's really that hard though.  I find it helps if I try to hold the 3 direction.  Don't press S too fast or it won't come out.

[SupaSage69]

10 minutes ago, Tiamat said:

On potemkin I guess?  I was dropping this one sometimes over the weekend.  :P  I don't think it's really that hard though.  I find it helps if I try to hold the 3 direction.  Don't press S too fast or it won't come out.

yea sorry should said who it was for and thanks ill try that, i saw u do it on potemkin in that tourney. You did great btw,i hate may

[Tiamat]

37 minutes ago, SupaSage69 said:

yea sorry should said who it was for and thanks ill try that, i saw u do it on potemkin in that tourney. You did great btw,i hate may

Thanks.   I'm planning to do a lot more anti-May stuff so hopefully I'll do better next time.  

[Verimeloni]

 

  pretty cool, some use for helios

[SupaSage69]

I finally got a Arcade stick and its my first time playing on one since i was a kid 

The one problem i have is practicing my pressure and movement 

Anyone who plays stick have any tips i can use in lab to help me learn?

[WonderTonic]

<-- Pad player. Sorry. I used to play stick, but I'm horrible at returning to neutral so I can't dash or airdash properly.  Bedman's movement is pretty unique so it probably takes getting used to whether a stick vet or newbie. I know that's not much help =(.

 

 

Had this happen to me in a match so I looked into it further. Apparently Hawk Baker gets absorbed by DV seals, but only seems to work when Bedman is performing a special move. This also seems to have an affect on the first hit of volcanic viper as well. 

 

Not in the vid is meaty task A' vs. VV. You will get hit by the 2nd hit of VV but not the first. Also if you YRC the special before Hawk Baker hits, the seals still seem to absorb the DP.

[NecroTheReaper]

This only tested with Sol and Sin?  Cuz Leo and Axl would also be great victims for this kinda tech.  Honestly it doesnt feel intentional and probably is a bug, but tech is tech, and I will use it xD.

 

Of the actual thing, have you tried it on any reversal supers?  Most of them are multi-hit moves, so I doubt it'd work as well, but kinda funny if you can screw someone out of 50 meter lol

[WonderTonic]

Yea i've tried a bunch of moves both reversal and non.  It seems to work on Leo and Slayer's unblockables without requiring you to use a special move, but chances are you wont be able to apply that in a match. There is a vid of that floating around somewhere.  I haven't tried all supers but none of the ones I have tried have worked.  I'm still messing around with it so I'll post if there's anything significant that I can find.

[Pen_Ninja]

This happens because a move can't hit 2 things on the same frame.

Hitting a DV seal and Bedman at the same time is not possible so the move hits the DV seal on active frame 1 and remains active to hit Bedman on frame 2.

Sin's DP only has 1 active frame so there's no 2nd active frame with which to hit Bedman.

 

Not sure why it requires you to use a special though. It shouldn't really...

[WonderTonic]

You're right, and you actually cleared everything up for me.  For each active frame a move has, 1 seal is required to absorb that move.  I messed around in training mode and found that this worked with only one exception, and that was Elphelt's Shotgun Stance H.  That move is listed as have 1 active frame but that seems to only be correct at a certain distance. Up close seems to be 2 frames.

For Sin's case, Hawk Baker is actually being absorbed by the S seal and the Task A' Seal that is created right before his reversal.  If you look at the frame data (although dated) it says that move has 2 active frames opposed to the 1 that I also believed.

Here's a few examples of this in use. Of course most aren't practical lol.

 

[Qelaion]

May can't reversal whiner super when there's a seal in front of her. Have fun with that. (EDIT) Maybe I should watch the videos before I post LOL

[Verimeloni]

This is gold

maybe not practical but amusing as hell

[MLSTRM]

Seems pretty handy for baiting people that are very DP/Reversal heavy on wakeup while also giving you at least some oki in the form of Task A/A' and possibly a counter hit depending on the recovery

[NecroTheReaper]

Is it grab invul as well?  It would be hilarious if while a B seal was out, you walk forward and task A right on their body.

[MLSTRM]

8 hours ago, NecroTheReaper said:

Is it grab invul as well?  It would be hilarious if while a B seal was out, you walk forward and task A right on their body.

Since you can't grab a seal I would imagine not, it seems to work since an attack can't strike the seal and bedman on the same frame. you could probably use it to throw people though if you time it like a god, since you'd have that frame eaten by the seal to grab them

[NecroTheReaper]

That makes sense.  Though thinking about it, since Dust combos can net you 3 seals in the corner, does having more than one increase the invul time you have?

[MLSTRM]

Same thing applies, if an attack would hit Bedman and 2 seals on the same frame, the seals would be destroyed on consecutive frames and then Bedman would be hit on the third active frame of the move.

[Mefistopheles]

After 1 year of Xrd, i'm really curios how everyone is thinking about a specific topic: Bedman's neutral. How do you guys approach it?

I tried a really long time to play him like a rushdown character: Play footsies, walking or jumping in into tick throw mixups.

This doesn't really work well in my experience because of two major problems:

1) His footsies are really bad at f.s range of most characters. 2s and 2/3hs are awesome at mid~long range, however USING them can be really dangerous!!! Their really vunerable against jumps without 25% Tension. F.s and 2k are to short to compete against other pokes. Backdash Yrc > 2hs does help, but it is kinda expensive if you won't get a hitconfirm. His dash rearly works out in your favor in footsies.

2) His jump is really floaty and slow. Anybody who has experience in this matchup and who isen't sleeping, can react to his jumpins. You probably get aa'ed, even when you read your opponent right and manage to jump over a poke. There're so many quick and small buttons, which will do the job like Ram 4P, Slayer 5p, Sol 5k, Ky 5P, Elphelts c.s, Chipps 5P, etc.......

So i looked at his tools, especially at Task A. Turns out TK Task A and Air Task A relative close to the ground will always hit the enemy on it's way back, if they stay on the ground  unless you're somewhere right above their head.

Task A will hit on it's way towards them. On the way back, it only covers the air.

My new goal in neutral is to throw out TK Task A or Air Task A, to cover TK Task B or Task C recovery, so i can produce seals which will cover the next Task A or Deja Vü Task A. Deja Vü Task C is pretty good to cover yourself for Task A'. When it hits, Bedman is +, so you can go for tick throw / 2K / j.D / 6H mixups.

However this can be tricky to do against projectile heavy zoners, Chipp or Elphelt ( because fuck sniper rifle's auto aim.....)

So in summary, i think Bedman should be played as a zoner, who'll get in if there's a opportunity.


Edit: Ahhh perfect in time, Bedman's Hitbox: http://imgur.com/a/ZdUKb
 

This explains a lot. His Jumping Normals are really tame ( j.D is pretty good tho). And ich should really use more 5h with 25% Tension Oo. Hitbox is Elphelt Tier.

[Tiamat]

I think Bedman neutral is extremely matchup dependant.  2S isn't that dangerous if they jump because of the fast recovery, though you'll probably be put into a defensive situation.  Against moves like Ky's Greed Sever or Axl 6H though you're gonna get hit.

TK 236P is good because covers the ground and they can't just go under it either on the way to them or on the return.  On the negative side it takes longer to throw than a standing 236P so you need to take that into account.  

[Mefistopheles]

I don't really think so. The difference in the Mu's is, that it gets more easy or harder to throw out Task A + get's less effective.