[Xrd] Bedman Gameplay Discussion

[NecroTheReaper]

I definitely do not agree with his jumpins being just easy to AA.  The reason why is you shouldnt just be rusing straight at them the whole time with it.  And even if you do, the only option they have to straight up punish you is an airgrab since you can cancel Bedman's airdash into FD.  You have several options to stop them from beating you (though some is matchup dependant).

 

 2H is a level 4 move and the opponent is easily pushed into its hitbox from c.S>f.S gatling.  This is very good for many things and there's many ways to beat their options from here (they all have their own risk/rewards though).  From a blocked 2H, using Bedman's airdash, you can:

-886 j.KPP or j.KS (typical pressure extension after you have respect)

-886 FD cancel j.6PH (a complicated input, but will airgrab many people who try to jump out)

-889 j.P (wiff) falling air normals or air task C (throw off their attempted AA)

-tk Task B RRC (beats a lot of rising air normals, converts easily, and if you RRC air task B late enough, you get the seal, plus forces them into a high/loow scenario)

-tk or non tk task A (tk beats many low profile moves including stun dipper, non tk is an AA bait especially when YRC'd)

-881/2 2H  (typical hard AA callout, can get task C knockdown regardless of CH)

-any task moves (typically these are usually unsafe in one way or another, but they're some of the fastest options and can have occasional uses.

-883 j.H wiff (gets you back to the ground really fast and doesnt put you right in their face)

-DV (seals out or no, you shorten the recovery of the move without jumping.  Doesnt really accomplish much though, so not very useful).

 

Really if you're getting predictably AA'd, you need to focus on more mobile uses of his FD cancels and learning when its appropriate to use air task B for movement.  I find there's only like 3-5 characters I cant play an air game fairly.

[GcYoshi13]

On 1/26/2016 at 9:01 PM, NecroTheReaper said:

 

Really if you're getting predictably AA'd, you need to focus on more mobile uses of his FD cancels and learning when its appropriate to use air task B for movement.  I find there's only like 3-5 characters I cant play an air game fairly.

Going to disagree.

 

As I've come to play more and against better opponents, there's a lot of consequences for an air-focused neutral. Air movement should work in tandem with his ground offense, but prioritizing ground movement is the future of this character's neutral in my opinion.

 

Aggressively air dashing too low makes you susceptible to ground pokes and playing a high air game makes you susceptible to 6Ps, air throws, or dash unders. As good players are beginning to figure out this MU more, it becomes more difficult to catch players with air dashing without prior pressure, conditioning, or set-ups.

 

The largest reason why ground movement should be favored in neutral is because of Tension gain. Bedman gains no tension in air dashing unless he lets his air dash drag on (he does no inputs after). If Bedman performs an air normal during an air dash, he'll carry the momentum of the dash, but he won't gain tension for it. Tension is crucial for his gameplan and defense.

[GcYoshi13]

On 1/25/2016 at 10:57 AM, Tiamat said:

I think Bedman neutral is extremely matchup dependant.  2S isn't that dangerous if they jump because of the fast recovery, though you'll probably be put into a defensive situation.  Against moves like Ky's Greed Sever or Axl 6H though you're gonna get hit.

TK 236P is good because covers the ground and they can't just go under it either on the way to them or on the return.  On the negative side it takes longer to throw than a standing 236P so you need to take that into account.  

 

On 1/25/2016 at 11:50 AM, Mefistopheles said:

I don't really think so. The difference in the Mu's is, that it gets more easy or harder to throw out Task A + get's less effective.

I'm a bit on the middle ground here. Close ground TK Task A is crucial to force your opponent to react in some way. It's also a way of getting a Task A out that can cover a TK Task B and make it safe (and also a frame trap if it hits).

 

Finding moments to throw this out in neutral is MU dependant. You'd probably want to do this carefully vs Chipp or Millia, but the rewards off of it, shouldn't be overlooked.

 

That being said, relying on Task A too much as the autopilot go-to is starting cause problems for me in neutral. I'm still trying to feel for the best times to use it while not overusing it.

[NecroTheReaper]

Walking carries the least risk and gives meter, but it also is very passive and a lot of characters can outdo Bedman at midrange.  I'm not sayin that you should only airdash, but you shouldn't be getting AA'd every time you decide to do so.  Getting that first knockdown with Bedman is veeeeery bad for the opponent since most combos leave you with 25 meter and a DV seal, so I say press the risk every now and then.

[GcYoshi13]

54 minutes ago, NecroTheReaper said:

Walking carries the least risk and gives meter, but it also is very passive and a lot of characters can outdo Bedman at midrange.  I'm not sayin that you should only airdash, but you shouldn't be getting AA'd every time you decide to do so.  Getting that first knockdown with Bedman is veeeeery bad for the opponent since most combos leave you with 25 meter and a DV seal, so I say press the risk every now and then.

Midrange is where you want to be alert and try to see what your opponent is doing. You're free to poke at that distance.

 

Flying around constantly with active neutral is more dangerous than playing a reactive neutral. You have Task A to get a response from the opponent, which is active enough.

 

The problem with what you said is regarding "when you choose to air dash, you shouldn't be getting AA'd every time you do so" is that this is hypothetical. Everyone intends to air dash and hope it doesn't get AA'd, but the reality is that it's not always the case. This discussion stems from the fact that an air based neutral makes you more vulnerable to getting air-to-air'd or anti-air'd. Why play a neutral like that when a reactive ground neutral has many more benefits?

 

Air dashes are crucial when his pressure begins, but should not be overvalued in his overall neutral gameplan.

[WonderTonic]

I've been practicing a heavy ground based gameplan since adjusting my gameplay for axl.  One thing it exposed for me was my over-reliability on air movement to avoid a lot of situations that would've been promptly solved with a 6p, 5k, 2s, or even a walk under for less risk and less/equal reward. 

I still find myself airdash happy at times, but one thing that has helped even more than FD cancelling my airdash is Hover.  While FD cancelling your airdash is strong for multiple reasons. You run the risk of putting yourself on the defensive against characters with decent gatlings out of 6p.  Putting a small hover before you dash is enough to potentially punish whiffed ground pokes and 6p attempts.

I think there are times when an air based neutral or simply a really aggressive style can be preferable.  Take the Venom match up for example.  Personally I feel like playing reactive puts me in a lot of undesirable positions in that match, especially against Venoms that work around 3h.  For this match I'm usually looking to put him in hit or block stun and keep his space and options limited for as long as I can. However, if he is full screen and already has a rhythm going, I will begin to really limit my jumping to certain options.

My goal has pretty much become stronger in the ground poking game, and become much less predictable with my air movement, and figuring out which is best for specific match ups.  Pretty vague I guess

[NecroTheReaper]

Maybe my issue is, I cant use Bedman's 6P.  I have had very few situations where his 6P has actually beaten out an air move that wasnt highly telegraphed, so that would lowery ground game to just f.S, which while it isnt bad, there are characters with a better f.S.

[Tiamat]

22 minutes ago, NecroTheReaper said:

Maybe my issue is, I cant use Bedman's 6P.  I have had very few situations where his 6P has actually beaten out an air move that wasnt highly telegraphed, so that would lowery ground game to just f.S, which while it isnt bad, there are characters with a better f.S.

6P is generally pretty reliable so I'm guessing you are reacting too slowly.  If you're playing online of course the lag can make it much harder to react.

[WonderTonic]

52 minutes ago, NecroTheReaper said:

Maybe my issue is, I cant use Bedman's 6P.  I have had very few situations where his 6P has actually beaten out an air move that wasnt highly telegraphed, so that would lowery ground game to just f.S, which while it isnt bad, there are characters with a better f.S.

This was my problem. It still is sometimes.  I go back and look at matches and see that I'll either completely neglect 6p or time it too late and it gets stuffed by timing sensitive norms (Chipp's j.D and May's j.S come to mind).  Like Tiamat said, it's probably the reaction time/netplay

[Verimeloni]

6P is an amazing normal, you should really try to use it more. Of course there are those air normals that are insanely hard to anti-air but still

 

[Tiamat]

Just throwing this out there since I used a recording to test on every character.  This is an oki setup not a combo.

Midscreen throw > TK 236S > walk back meaty 2K

If done perfectly they can't wakeup jump or grab your 2K meaty.

O: sol, may, mi, el, za, chi, ram, i-no, slay, axl
X: ky, ve
OTG: fau, sin, leo, bed, pot

Ky and Venom can jump walk back 2K.  You can still meaty by doing 2K immediately on landing from the 236S but you'll be throwable.  If you do j.D that will meaty on almost everyone except if venom wakeup jumps he'll be able to block it in the air.  For the character it says "OTG" that means doing the TK 236S immediately will result in OTG which ruins your oki.

 

 

[GcYoshi13]

11 hours ago, Tiamat said:

Just throwing this out there since I used a recording to test on every character.  This is an oki setup not a combo.

Midscreen throw > TK 236S > walk back meaty 2K

If done perfectly they can't wakeup jump or grab your 2K meaty.

O: sol, may, mi, el, za, chi, ram, i-no, slay, axl
X: ky, ve
OTG: fau, sin, leo, bed, pot

Ky and Venom can jump walk back 2K.  You can still meaty by doing 2K immediately on landing from the 236S but you'll be throwable.  If you do j.D that will meaty on almost everyone except if venom wakeup jumps he'll be able to block it in the air.  For the character it says "OTG" that means doing the TK 236S immediately will result in OTG which ruins your oki.

 

 

 

What about meaty-ing with 2P? Will the two exceptions work then?

[WonderTonic]

14 hours ago, Tiamat said:

X: ky, ve
OTG: fau, sin, leo, bed, pot

 

Walk back 2k seems to work on Sin and Leo. You just have to do you tk 236s slightly higher than norm. I guess it works because they get up so slow. I believe Venom, Ky, and Faust can be hit with meaty 2p after walking back, I'll mess with it more later. For Faust just do a 7 jump for your j 236s, it's still sort of troublesome though. I'd probably just avoid this on Potemkin lol.

[Tiamat]

12 hours ago, GcYoshi13 said:

 

What about meaty-ing with 2P? Will the two exceptions work then?

Good thought, that works for Ky.  My recording that covers both jump and grab for Ky is jumpable by Venom but I can't seem to do it faster without getting grabbed.  

Could still mix up with an immediate 2K and a j.D on venom though.  

[NecroTheReaper]

Does anyone else use 5H or 1/2H into tk task B RRC to force an immediate high-low situation?  I started doing it by accident until I realized how few I saw people blocking it, then it actually became a successful plan lol

[Tiamat]

4 hours ago, NecroTheReaper said:

Does anyone else use 5H or 1/2H into tk task B RRC to force an immediate high-low situation?  I started doing it by accident until I realized how few I saw people blocking it, then it actually became a successful plan lol

I've done it before but generally I recommend not using an RC just to get a mixup.  If you got a 236S blocked unexpectedly then RCing to avoid punish is prudent and you might as well do a mixup while you can.  Otherwise I don't think it's worth it.  

[GcYoshi13]

I do think there's potential of f.S, TK Task B YRC, and mixing it up with empty low, or a variation of highs. You can even do the tricky j.P, air dash forward, jK.

[MLSTRM]

So I'm not really sure if there's any way to make this safe or useful except for closing the gap at midscreen or further, but you can Task C YRC just as you become airborne, and fly across the screen, and then mix it up a little by halting momentum using air Task A/Task A', or you can cover the descent using j.H, or even go Air-to-air with j.S or Task B.

Also just a question, what's the best way to confirm off a 3H on normal/counter hit? For now the only thing I've really found that feels somewhat consistent is just to do 9>air Task B, but I'm wondering if there's anything better you can pick it up into?

[GcYoshi13]

28 minutes ago, MLSTRM said:

So I'm not really sure if there's any way to make this safe or useful except for closing the gap at midscreen or further, but you can Task C YRC just as you become airborne, and fly across the screen, and then mix it up a little by halting momentum using air Task A/Task A', or you can cover the descent using j.H, or even go Air-to-air with j.S or Task B.

Also just a question, what's the best way to confirm off a 3H on normal/counter hit? For now the only thing I've really found that feels somewhat consistent is just to do 9>air Task B, but I'm wondering if there's anything better you can pick it up into?

I haven't seen many uses for Task C YRC to get in yet and all in all, it doesn't seem like a good way to use meter for a shoddy jump-in. You can't air dash unless you jump installed prior.

 

3H confirms are generally just jump forward j.S, Task B. There are more optimal confirms depending on the distance and characters. Sometimes you can do jS, air dash forward, jS Task B.

 

If it counter hits, you can air dash forward and FD brake your air dash to get momentum and get a 2P,cS Task C before they land. Remember that they have to be grounded if they get hit by CH 3H, because being CH in the air by 3H is techable.

[NecroTheReaper]

If you manage to JI task C, it gives you an incredibly fast jump option that you can still hover out of.  Could be useful for avoiding a very select few zoning options, but yeah, I hadn't found much use for it (however, there is a very tight YRC window if you cancel f.S into task C, so that's a thing).

 

If you -could- pick up with a 2P>c.S, couldn't you also potentially do a so into air task C combo?  Also, you can do the DV seal wiff>2H>air combo on 3H CH

[GcYoshi13]

9 minutes ago, NecroTheReaper said:

If you manage to JI task C, it gives you an incredibly fast jump option that you can still hover out of.  Could be useful for avoiding a very select few zoning options, but yeah, I hadn't found much use for it (however, there is a very tight YRC window if you cancel f.S into task C, so that's a thing).

 

If you -could- pick up with a 2P>c.S, couldn't you also potentially do a so into air task C combo?  Also, you can do the DV seal wiff>2H>air combo on 3H CH

Maybe, air task C combos are very fickle on height. You could probably do an air jK, air dash down forward, jS, ground Task C extension though.

[MLSTRM]

2 hours ago, NecroTheReaper said:

If you manage to JI task C, it gives you an incredibly fast jump option that you can still hover out of.  Could be useful for avoiding a very select few zoning options, but yeah, I hadn't found much use for it (however, there is a very tight YRC window if you cancel f.S into task C, so that's a thing).

Seems like you can JI it just by doing TK Task C, but yeah, still doesn't seem very useful.

[NecroTheReaper]

So I went and looked at a few things today, most of them being Badman's damage.  You guys expect to see it tuned down at some point or think it's fair as is?  

 

I bring this up because Badman has Millia levels of mix-up, and high average damage to accompany it.  Looking through the cast, I think only Sin is able to beat Badman's damage in a mid-screen non CH punish, and he doesn't get the oki we do.  Not to mention, most of our damage is between 140-200 damage.

 

This is mostly out of boredom cuz I don't wanna see the Badman forums as dead as they are xD

[Verimeloni]

If someone already has access to rev demo I'd like to know if charged blitz is any use in combos, in corner dust stuff perhaps?

[Tiamat]

On 4/1/2016 at 11:52 PM, NecroTheReaper said:

So I went and looked at a few things today, most of them being Badman's damage.  You guys expect to see it tuned down at some point or think it's fair as is?  

 

I bring this up because Badman has Millia levels of mix-up, and high average damage to accompany it.  Looking through the cast, I think only Sin is able to beat Badman's damage in a mid-screen non CH punish, and he doesn't get the oki we do.  Not to mention, most of our damage is between 140-200 damage.

 

This is mostly out of boredom cuz I don't wanna see the Badman forums as dead as they are xD

His damage is high but it's fine.  Unless the other player is doing a lot of DPs or stupid stuff bedman won't land many full c.S punish combos anyway.  

It will be more active here when more people have Revelator demo.  If no one beats me to it I'll post character specific oki stuff and combos for the 3 new chars in the demo.