[CP] Ragna Gameplay Discussion

[LuminAbyss]

Has no one experimented with cross-up TK BS stuff? It looks like it has a lot potential, but I'm not good at optimizing combos myself.

[Callisto]

I did it twice last night at a local tournament, both times on accident, both times got blocked

[Gramas]

Has no one experimented with cross-up TK BS stuff? It looks like it has a lot potential, but I'm not good at optimizing combos myself.

I abuse it but it get blocked everytime..at least they cant stuff it with a normal(I guess)

I still mess my inputs when I want to DS/BS in neutral/blockstrings...2 years the same motion and then you have to change it..its brutal

[LuminAbyss]

I've managed to hit with it a couple of times, but never had good confirms off of it, so I was wondering if anyone else had ideas.

[Callisto]

I still mess my inputs when I want to DS/BS in neutral/blockstrings...2 years the same motion and then you have to change it..its brutal

This is exactly how I got the two that I did lol, trying to DS out of a blockstring.

I like new DS but I would absolutely trade BS for having 214 DS back and not having to worry about whether or not I'll actually get DID when I want it.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I think I remember someone mentioning before that DS was -1 at worst point blank, this is without even dash canceling. I do sometimes get problems with command overlap, though. Need to play more.

Saw a tier list from Xie on Twitter and he actually put Ragna at A rank. He surprisingly doesn't feel that bad to me. Just doesn't seem terribly interesting anymore.

[LuminAbyss]

I think I remember someone mentioning before that DS was -1 at worst point blank, this is without even dash canceling. I do sometimes get problems with command overlap, though. Need to play more.

It is -1 at worst without dash cancelling, dash cancelling seems to put it around +7, I've purple grabbed off it in training mode. The New Deadspike seems to be wonky with it's hitbox, or rather really spacing dependent. It's growing on me though.

I found something interesting (though I'm sure this was known in CSE, but it's new to me).

Off close range 6D, if you cancel into BE, it seems to hit on the very last possible active frame, and it looks like it actually skips the hitstop on Ragna. Doing dash 5A/2A after it feels like a super tight block string.

[VR-Raiden]

So are we finally sure how advantageous deadspike is on block if you dash cancel it ASAP? Is it truly +7?

I got it to be at least +8 after the DC, from very far block in corner. DS DC 5B was an airtight blockstring in that situation. How likely it is to set that up is another question though.

Has no one experimented with cross-up TK BS stuff? It looks like it has a lot potential, but I'm not good at optimizing combos myself.

I am still getting used to the range at which it actually hits crossup. If it connects too early after you go behind, crossup protection kicks in. One string I was messing with yesterday that got it to crossup pretty often is blocked airdash jC jD jBS. But of course there is some variability there too.

As for comboing after the RC, waiting to land into dash 5B seems most consistent. I don't know optimized combos off it yet though.

Edited October 30, 2013 by VR-Raiden

[LuminAbyss]

I got it to be at least +8 after the DC, from very far block in corner. DS DC 5B was an airtight blockstring in that situation. How likely it is to set that up is another question though.

5D(1) > DS is now tighter, because of the way 5D's blockstun has been changed. Both hits of the move are level 5, and both hits give 20 frames of block stun, so it's likely to space DS well and DC it to keep up pressure.

[MashThat5A]

But the vertical hitbox of DS is lower so it's easier to up back, and good players will up back after 5D.

[Cheefoo]

In CSEX these were Ragna's options off of a blocked 5D

-deadspike (avoided by up-back usually - can be punished hard if the opponent jumps forward over it)

-gauntlet hades (blocked by up-back and can then be punished unless Ragna has meter)

-hells fang (blocked by up-back - can be punished if IB'd - hitting with hell's fang gives little reward - non-IB can allow Ragna to employ gimmicky frame traps/throw mindgames)

-inferno divider (no)

-let 5D recover (can be punished, though large pushback, especially while barriered, may make it difficult, and most opponents are hesitant to try, because Ragna can cancel late into his specials - generally the best way to not get fucked if you accidentally press 5D)

-RC 2B (can be implicitly avoided by being non-existant)

Now in BBCP he has a few more options off of a blocked 5D (keeping in mind I haven't the game myself, but I've been watching matches for 10+ months)

-deadspike (easier to jump away from, but at longer ranges the frame advantage is more rewarding - punishing if jumped over towards Ragna might be more difficult because he could potentially dash cancel and throw them off)

-bloodscythe (can be punished with anti-airs or well timed air-grabs - if you try to jump away, chances are you're going to block it, and Ragna can keep you in pressure with 5A - up close it can cross up, possibly avoiding and fatally punishing AA's)

-gauntlet hades (avoided by up-back and punished just like before)

-hells fang (blocked easily, but might be more rewarding now if you hit opponents during jump startup - I'm not sure if there's a way to time it so HF connects just when they're trying to up-back away from a DS or GH - of course it can still be used for gimmicks on block)

-let 5D recover (a much better option now, recovering something like 10 frames faster - if you think your opponent is going to up-back and you're afraid they're going to air-grab any BS, you could just let 5D recover and be able to defend yourself if the opponent tries to air-dash at you)

So it definitely seems less shitty, but there are usually better options. Now that 5D(1) is level 5 too, you could cancel that right away to throw your opponent off.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Cheefoo

[VR-Raiden]

so I really like j.BS knockdown, leaves you at way more advantage than any other knockdowns. I'm not sure when it would be worth it, but to end with it you have to cut combos shorter. I'm inclined to do that for the better oki but I need to play more/watch more vids, and hear other opinions. At the very least it has to be worth it off midscreen air-to-air confirms that couldn't make use of BE.

Midscreen you can get airdash/dash jump safejump j.B/j.C. j.B is active longer so it catches wake-up backdash better but doesn't reach wake-up back roll like j.C does. Against forward roll they seem to get away if you already dash jumped/airdashed forward. Doing a normal jump safejump j.C catches front roll, but can't reach back roll. So they have a couple ways out depending on what you do at midscreen. They can also delay neutral tech so your safejump whiffs but you can still do stuff after they tech, just watch out for reversals.

In corner this seems pretty good. Corner j.BS knockdown > backjump safejump j.C catches either forward or back rolls, which combos into air hit 5B into stuff. They can delay neutral tech here too but you're still at advantage to dash up and do things. They can wake-up backdash, but if you call that out you can airdash jC after your backjump to punish (probably depends on character what punish you can get). If you get them to respect it enough, you might then be able to get away with neutral jump > delay airdash/low mix-up.

Sorry if this is old news, I haven't been keeping up enough on match vids

tested on Ragna btw

[Callisto]

I was looking through a bit...is Ragna the only character that can't cancel his AA on block? I'm not even sure how I'm supposed to deal with IADs now, was playing a Terumi that was alternating between IAD > barrier and IAD > J.D or whatever the downward green swipe is, and I had to take a 50/50 on if I wanted to attempt to anti-air and get bodied if he blocked, or let him come in and get free pressure.

[Jackie Chandler]

I haven't actually tried, but 6A's still special cancelable on block, right? So maybe you can react to the block and use Blood Scythe in anticipation of the landing attack. It'll probably still be reactable in itself, but depending on what your opponent does after landing, you might catch them in recovery of whatever they try - or at the very least, put yourself in an ambiguous position above them that makes them want to block. :3

[MashThat5A]

Are we really having the 5D in block string conversation again?

[Cheefoo]

Cancel it into ID. Or if you're feeling extra pro you could use DID and get that fatal counter.

[floatwater]

Are we really having the 5D in block string conversation again?

Da wheel o fate is turning.

[Callisto]

I haven't actually tried, but 6A's still special cancelable on block, right? So maybe you can react to the block and use Blood Scythe in anticipation of the landing attack. It'll probably still be reactable in itself, but depending on what your opponent does after landing, you might catch them in recovery of whatever they try - or at the very least, put yourself in an ambiguous position above them that makes them want to block. :3

ahhh thanks, I thought it was just completely uncancelable.

[C-Strife]

Ok Question regarding Ragna?: Is there any way buffer to 6A > 214D, I had someone suggest 2147D but that didn't work....and I'm on a pad so 7214D is pretty clunky and awkward to do, especially mid-combo...

[BlackYakuzu94]

Ok Question regarding Ragna?: Is there any way buffer to 6A > 214D, I had someone suggest 2147D but that didn't work....and I'm on a pad so 7214D is pretty clunky and awkward to do, especially mid-combo...

2147D is the best way to go about it, just gotta practice that timing.

[VR-Raiden]

Ok Question regarding Ragna?: Is there any way buffer to 6A > 214D, I had someone suggest 2147D but that didn't work....and I'm on a pad so 7214D is pretty clunky and awkward to do, especially mid-combo...

Yes do it as 2147D, doing it otherwise can mess up certain combos it seems, causes them to go behind more often. What's happening when it doesn't work? If you get ground BS you pressed D too early, if you get j.D you pressed D too late. And if you get the tkBS and it just doesn't combo, either you have to do it faster or it doesn't work there.

[C-Strife]

Yes do it as 2147D, doing it otherwise can mess up certain combos it seems, causes them to go behind more often. What's happening when it doesn't work? If you get ground BS you pressed D too early, if you get j.D you pressed D too late. And if you get the tkBS and it just doesn't combo, either you have to do it faster or it doesn't work there.

Yeah, I'm usually getting ground attacks or j.D, so 2147D for sure works huh? Guess I'll get to practicing.....

[C-Strife]

Thanks for the replies though!

[xlolxlolx]

i suggest you practice the tk motion by itself before trying to do it in combos, so just practice getting 2147D down by itself

[C-Strife]

Yes do it as 2147D, doing it otherwise can mess up certain combos it seems, causes them to go behind more often. What's happening when it doesn't work? If you get ground BS you pressed D too early, if you get j.D you pressed D too late. And if you get the tkBS and it just doesn't combo, either you have to do it faster or it doesn't work there.

Ok yeah, I'm just getting normal 214D, the input indicator shows the 7, but it's just not registering, though I should mention I'm just trying 6A > 2147D no lead up or anything.