[CP] Ragna Gameplay Discussion

[Justice7541]

That's more of a "charge through fullscreen projectiles" move since the startup before the actual projectile superarmor is huge. It's no Sledge. I can't test it right this instant but I think Dead Spike > Dead Spike will beat out Kagura 6DC if you make him block the first Dead Spike.

I was mostly joking anyway, Kagura being super slow is just one of those jokes I like to beat to death. Tager too fast for Kagura, gets zoned out by Spark Bolt etc. Dead Spike is definitely legit against Kagura though as long as it's not the only thing you're doing.

[bakahyl]

That's more of a "charge through fullscreen projectiles" move since the startup before the actual projectile superarmor is huge. It's no Sledge. I can't test it right this instant but I think Dead Spike > Dead Spike will beat out Kagura 6DC if you make him block the first Dead Spike.

I was mostly joking anyway, Kagura being super slow is just one of those jokes I like to beat to death. Tager too fast for Kagura, gets zoned out by Spark Bolt etc. Dead Spike is definitely legit against Kagura though as long as it's not the only thing you're doing.

Uhm, i am not even going to challenge Kagura with my projectiles because of his 6d~c and i play Mu.

Besides, he can just jump over it and hit you with j.c or throw any of his sonic booms to cancel out any DS

[Justice7541]

No way Kagura is punishing a Mu stein set (or Dead Spike for that matter) with 6DC unless he predicts it. I'm not sure exactly when the projectile superarmor starts up but it's on the very first active frame of 6DC it's 31 frames minimum.

[bakahyl]

No way Kagura is punishing a Mu stein set (or Dead Spike for that matter) with 6DC unless he predicts it. I'm not sure exactly when the projectile superarmor starts up but it's on the very first active frame of 6DC it's 31 frames minimum.

And a stein fires after like 115 frames. Also i was more talking about the 17f habaya, because you can't throw it out close otherwise it would have made more sense to use your own normals at that range and his 5c and 2c have incredible range to hit you as well. You have to barrier block his 6d~c and it's fairly safe because it can gattle into other of his moves

[Tong]

Playing Izayoi is definitely part of the problem since she has no easy counters to anything he does. If he makes you block a 2C you pretty much have no choice but to let him reset his blockstring unless you want to gamble on a Phorizer or 6A, both of which will get you blown up hard if he doesn't 5B, and the rewards for actually guessing right are pretty slim since at best it puts you back at neutral where he still has the advantage. As Hazama I could at least make Ragna guess a bit more since Jayoku was a real threat, but Ragna doesn't really need to worry about anything Izayoi does if he just spaces her properly for his blockstrings. He can take all sorts of risks and as far as I can tell his only really punishable move is Blood Scythe. Anything else he won't really get hit hard enough to deter him from taking the risk and he'll still be in an advantageous position after anyway.

As I've said, you can beat his pressure resets by either using a fast move like 5A/2A or jumping out.

The issue seems to dwell in match-up specifics rather than not knowing how to counter Ragna (you even know how his pressure works), and in this case I think asking experienced Izayoi players for tips on this match-up and how to beat him on neutral would be a good idea.

[Justice7541]

As I've said, you can beat his pressure resets by either using a fast move like 5A/2A or jumping out.

The issue seems to dwell in match-up specifics rather than not knowing how to counter Ragna (you even know how his pressure works), and in this case I think asking experienced Izayoi players for tips on this match-up and how to beat him on neutral would be a good idea.

Well I know the matchup in theory but in practice he still wrecks me. He doesn't have anything unblockable (in fact, his mixups are pretty slow) but he just has way too much stuff to watch for and he gets like 3-4 chances per blockstring. It's all incredibly solid and I have no idea how to deal with it without taking huge risks.

I was using Izayoi in part because I play her a lot but also because she's a good example of a character who actually has to react to Ragna pressure rather just doing some YOLO mash to escape. It's mostly just an issue of risk/reward, Ragna scoops at least 2.5k and hard oki off any hit and he gets into his pressure game super easily so unless I can actually punish him hard on EVERYTHING it's pretty much a straight loss for me. Relying on a hard read that gives me 1k and puts him back at neutral vs. him getting 2.5k and getting corner oki isn't a good situation when he's got some of the best neutral pokes in the game.

Maybe I should just play Ragna until I can do his pressure myself, that usually helps.

[KayEff]

or you can just learn how to barrier

[floatwater]

OR you can just learn your movement options when playing Izayoi.

[MashThat5A]

game is hard

[-Kid]

Learning where the holes are in Ragna's pressure is a start. He really isn't all that threatening when he is pressuring. Just sounds like you don't have much match up experience. Izayoi's mixup in gain art is actually scarier than Ragna's, if you can get him to block.

Barrier blocking is effective against Ragna.

Edited March 3, 2014 by -Kid

[Cheefoo]

Barrier and hold up-back a lot. Seriously. It isn't a "huge risk" because these isn't much Ragna can do to punish jump-outs at a distance.

If he's out of 2B's range (chances are he will be unless he starts his pressure with 2B, at which point you won't be up-backing yet) he'd need to hitconfirm a 3C>HF (shitty damage, probably hard to confirm, never bothered testing), 2D>RC>5C (hitconfirming this is harder in CP) or get you with a 6C (he doesn't have many options on block if he "guesses wrong" and does it when you aren't up-backing, so most Ragna's won't opt to throw out 6C on block unless they're calling out your up-backs).

Also, if he catches you right after you jump with his 5B (you could barrier it mid-air though), the followup 5C will likely whiff due to its nerfed hitbox and he's probably not going to confirm it into 5D on reaction.

Lastly, he could just try to airthrow you if you're jumping out a lot, but if he guesses wrong, he'll just fly over you uselessly and lose all pressure. You could probably 4ABC OS this anyway, and I've never heard of TRM setups in midair.

[MashThat5A]

and I've never heard of TRM setups in midair.

They exist. You see it in top level play a lot.

I also did it to Souji when he came to NEC

[-Kid]

Just to go back to what Tong said about poking out with fast normals.

Izayoi's 5A and 2A have a startup of 6f and 8f, respectively. They aren't exactly the best tools for mashing out of Ragna's pressure (especially 2A).

Most of what Izayoi needs to rely on are hard reads, accompanied with good reactions. As I said earlier, Ragna's pressure isn't particularly threatening, so the best way to go about Ragna is to just be patient and poke out when you see 6B or jump barrier holes. That comes from being able to know what Ragna is capable of, and more importantly, knowing the Ragna player you are playing against.

If you end up landing yourself in the defence, reckless mashing with an 8f 2A will get you bodied.

[What!?]

Yea honestly at the end of the day it comes down to matchup experience, how comfortable you are with the character, how good your character is etc. But most importantly matchup experience. On another note what do you guys think of 214D after a knockdown combo ending with 2D? So far I'd say 90 percent of the people I play online get tagged by it, and it pretty much fatals anyone trying to reversal. Mind you this is after a neutral tech and I think backward roll.

[KayEff]

loses to forward roll

bs is also slow enough where players can reversal react out of it. probably.

Edited March 4, 2014 by KayEff

[What!?]

Yea forward roll goes right past it, but at least for neutral techs reversals wiff, for example Ragna's dp whiffs on wakeup from a neutral tech and gets fataled; Makoto's dp just tosses her in the opposite direction lol so you could run up and get a counter hit combo. It's pretty gimmicky but I'm surprised so many people get caught by it.

[-Kid]

Sounds interesting, but it's something that shouldn't be heavily relied upon, for reason stated by KayEff. It's one of those gimmicks you'd use once in a while when you know/conditioned your opponent to neutral tech.

[Justice7541]

Does it beat Mu/Jin/Hakumen reversals too? Ragna plz

[-Kid]

Most likely depends when you do it. Theoretically, it should bait Jin and Hakumen Yukikaze if used as they tech. The same can be said for Mu DP, in order to earn a fatal.

for Jin's C DP, I don't see how it won't beat blood scythe. As for the D version, whether or not the first hit whiffs will depend mainly on the height at which you are at when he initiates the DP.

[Justice7541]

I think it'd be funny if the Yukikaze whiffed Ragna cause he was too high. I know Jin's Yukikaze goes through Ragna's ID cause he's still invul.

[-Kid]

Well, hopefully if you are doing it right....you won't even activate Yukikaze and would score a fatal :x

[What!?]

Yea about that blood scythe thing I thought it was one of those cool to know gimmicks / psychic reads. If it does cross up I think Jins C dp actually whiffs, and his ex will hit but the follow up wiffs. Counter supers like haku or jin should still work considering the hitbox. Still fun to try though.

[-Kid]

I've just been testing things out, and using Blood scythe on your opponent's wakeup seems to have it's uses. Bare in mind that for what I'm going to say, you are required to condition your opponent to emergency neutral tech, or at least you have to know that they will use this tech when knocked down.

Basically the BS can be used to bait reversals in the corner, as I previously stated. You have to use the BS as they are about to recover from the tech. Make sure to be close to the opponent, this makes it more likely for them to try to attempt to DP you. For example, I tried it on a few of the cast:

Mu

Origins was baited and completely whiffs, enabling Ragna to confirm a fatal counter combo. Quite useful on Mu. Should the Mu player use 632146C instead as a reversal option, it still loses out and you'll still score a fatal.

Jin

I wouldn't really advise the use of this on Jin, because although you score a fatal on Yukikaze's recovery, Jin has two more reversals that he could use before resorting to Yukikaze. D DP beats the BS clean, making you lose your corner advantage. C DP beats the BS clean and will land you in the corner, as you end up with your back to the wall once you get tagged by the DP. (So to answer the previous question about cool side swaps by making Jin's C DP whiff? Yeah...No.)

Hakumen

Can confirm a fatal on Yukikaze recovery.

This setup also works on characters like Azrael, for baiting growler and I'm sure it has it's uses against other characters etc. Can also be used to make Sturm Wolf whiff, enabling you to recover quick enough to land a damaging combo. As with other tech, don't abuse this.

Edited March 5, 2014 by -Kid

[Cheefoo]

EXACTLY how plus is deadspike when DCed at "point blank"? I'm assuming the first active frame reaches roughly as far as a 2D, so being at that range vs. being absolutely next to the opponent shouldn't give different frame advantage, right?

I seemed to get +2 when I DC is as soon as I can, but I'm really not 100% sure if I'm testing it consistently. EXACTLY when can you DC it? It doesn't seem to be the first active frame from what I can tell. I'm not sure how I'm misinputting it, but it seems to be inconsistent. Sometimes I will CH 2A's with my 5B, other times I'll get hit out when I try to follow it up on block.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think DS has 18f blockstun and 12f hitstop, and as it is a projectile, the hitstop does not affect Ragna, right? It essentially has 30f blockstun, so shouldn't you in theory be able to DS>RC>DS without a gap? (I know this is technically pointless but I was just testing) When I tried this it had an opening, though. Was I not inputting it fast enough, or is there some other effect, perhaps relating to the projectile property that I'm not aware of?

Edited March 9, 2014 by Cheefoo

[Justice7541]

Has anyone confirmed if the new Gauntlet buff affects both hits or just the first one? I know the first hit would sometimes whiff midscreen if you were too close to the opponent but I guess the second hit not hitting on crouch was intentional? Personally I liked not having to worry about Ragna not frametrapping punishes with the followup, although I imagine Ragna players feel the opposite about that.